open thread – August 30-31, 2019

by Alison Green on August 30, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Evil HR Person*

    I’ve been contacted 3 times by 3 different recruiters for the same exact job. And I’m sure I’ll be contacted a fourth time if the company doesn’t find anyone to fill the position. The first time I was contacted, the recruiter did a bait and switch; however, I don’t think it was his fault. He sold me a role that was way above what the company is hiring for. When I interviewed with the company, I found out that the role is doing something that I essentially know how to do, but don’t want to do. But, since I have a highly coveted skill set, the recruiter was really excited to push me forward. The company never called me back – and, by the way, that’s typical for how they do business, which is another reason I don’t like the company.

    The second recruiter tried to sell me the same highly inflated job as the first, and I told him a quick “no thanks,” without much of an explanation.

    The third recruiter got a little more information from me – mainly because I was pissed off. Three times with the same song and dance! Really?! So, I told him that I’d already interviewed with the company, that the role he was trying to hire for was vastly different than what the company was actually hiring for and that, by the way, they have never contacted me back to at least say thanks but no thanks. I was a bit out of my wits that particular day, I’ll admit.

    The next time this happens, what should I say? I quick, polite, no thanks? Or should I go with something between polite and the nuclear option?

    Also, what’s up with interviewers asking, “why do you want to work for us?” if I was the one recruited? I should be the one asking that question. It actually took me by surprise, AND I WORK HR!
    *end rant*

    1. ThatGirl*

      I would say “I’ve already interviewed for this role and been contacted several times since then, I am not interested, thanks anyway.”

    2. Wearing Many Hats*

      I think the ‘Why do you want to work for us’ question is valid (although I would personally rephrase it) even if you are recruited, as you can easily not respond to recruiters.

      And obviously I want to go nuclear with responses but it’s probably best to give a polite version of your third response, even if it’s not as initially satisfying. Sounds so annoying, good luck!

      1. Leela*

        Agreed! If you accepted an interview/phone screen, they’re going to think there’s some interest there and they need to know what it is. If you say “I love your company’s mission to X” and they’re about to cut X, or X is wildly important to them, they want to know that. If you say “I really want to work with ____” and they know that in this role you never will, they want to know that too. It’s helping them assess the fit which is something you definitely want them to be doing, versus just pulling in any candidate who will say yes.

        I agree that it’s a weird phrasing for how this went down though!

      2. Me*

        Yes, I don’t understand why it’s a strange question. If you decide to interview I would think you are at least somewhat interested in working there regardless if you found the job opening on your own or were recruited for it. I certainly wouldn’t go to an interview for someplace I didn’t want to work.

        Maybe I’m missing something about the recruitment process.

        1. Anon for this*

          I am here very late, but I have interviewed at places where I was recruited and I’m not sure I want to work there! The whole reason I’m coming in is to decide whether I might!

          I have answered that question before with, “You guys called me. I’m not actively looking, but I heard enough from your recruiter [perhaps including one specific example] to be interested.”

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Also, what’s up with interviewers asking, “why do you want to work for us?” if I was the one recruited? I should be the one asking that question. It actually took me by surprise, AND I WORK HR!

      “That’s a good question. Why *do* I want to work here? Give me some reasons.” ;-)

      1. Evil HR Person*

        Ya know, I think I did respond with something along those lines. I think I said, “As you know, I was recruited, though I know your company rather well and love your products.” They make windows. I actually have their windows in my house! LOL!

    4. RabbitRabbit*

      Regarding your last point, I wonder if the interviewers know that you were actively recruited. Alternately, they may want to know if you find their job/organization appealing? If they do know you were head-hunted, they should do a little better job of “selling” their organization and opportunity. I do so when interviewing regardless of how the candidate came to us.

      1. Evil HR Person*

        I guess that’s my point: I didn’t feel that I had to “sell myself” like I usually would, perhaps because I expected the recruiter to have done that. It took me by surprise because, having done these type of interviews, I usually don’t ask this question from someone who we have actively recruited (either ourselves or through a head hunter). Another reason to not work in their HR department, I suppose.

      2. ChachkisGalore*

        The interviewer most likely does not know that the candidate was actively recruited. Whenever I’ve worked with external recruiters to source candidates I give them job specs, then they send over resumes with a little blurb about each candidate. That blurb rarely includes whether the candidate was actively looking for a new role or whether they specifically sought out that candidate. Sometimes you can figure it out from context clues – but not all that often.

        Plus like you mentioned, even if they were aware that the candidate was actively recruited it’s still very normal to want to know what about the role/company is making the candidate consider the position. The candidate might say they love doing x and don’t get to much x in their current role, but they saw x listed as part of the job description and they were interested in moving to a role with more x. Except x is only a small part of this role as well, so this probably isn’t a great fit after all.

        1. Evil HR Person*

          I guess what threw me off my game while interviewing is that I had prepared to be interviewed for a position doing X, which I love, and when the interviewer described the title and position – it had nothing to do with X and everything to do with Y, which I don’t love and might actually hate if I had to do it every day. So when she asked the question, I was already annoyed. I promise that I’m normally more level-headed. What I really should have done (hindsight being 20/20 and all) is to politely decline the rest of the interview, expressing the fact that I was looking for a role doing X, which was what the recruiter had sold me on, but that a position doing Y was not something I was interested in. It just goes to show that even HR professionals have feet of clay when it comes to interviews.

          1. ChachkisGalore*

            Totally understandable and that definitely is frustrating! It sounds like it’s more that company’s fault than any of the recruiters though. If it were just one occurrence it could have been the recruiter twisting things to get a candidate through the door, but if multiple recruiters were describing the role the same way then it sounds like it’s the company who is giving out incorrect info (who’s ultimately at fault – who knows! Could be the hiring manager deliberately twisting things, could be some sort of lost in translation thing between the hiring manager and someone else who coordinates with the external recruiters).

            I’m going to keep this in mind and start asking external recruiters where the candidates that we want to bring in came from (as in were they actively looking or were they approached by the recruiter). I’d still want to know why they’re interested, but it definitely could be worded or approached differently based on the scenario.

    5. SheLooksFamiliar*

      It’s not really the recruiters’ fault, even though they should be much better at conducting ntake and strategy calls with their clients – how long has it been open, why haven’t you filled it, who’s worked on it besides us, etc. I would be annoyed, but still polite. One never knows where today’s recruiter will wind up, never hurts to leave a positive impression. ThatGirl’s response is the one I came to share.

      I’m in corporate staffing and have rarely asked ‘Why do you want to work for us?’ even of applicants. Instead, I ask, ‘Why are you open to new opportunities?’ or ‘What’s prompting you to look at new roles?’ or some such. That’s a more valid question that offers more enlightening answers, IMO.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would just keep it short and sweet with them. I only say that because I don’t think the recruiters are connected or are they? You risk lashing out at someone who is essentially just doing their job, so I try not to lose my mind on them even though it’s a real struggle on some days [I would be struggling to stay civil in your shoes as well, that’s for sure!]

      1. Evil HR Person*

        The last one tricked me – he called me at work and they’re a well-known company with whom I’ve done business before. Otherwise I’d had put the unknown caller through to voicemail.

        1. EH*

          I get so many cold-calling recruiters ringing me that I save their phone numbers to a “Cold-Calling Recruiters” contact. That contact is set to go straight to voicemail. I put an eyeroll emoji at the front of the name so it’s at the top of my contact list and easy to add to when I am checking my voicemail later.

    8. hbc*

      Are these external or internal recruiters? If external and it’s realistic for them not to know, I’d just say, “Thanks anyway, but I already interviewed and FYI, the job you’re describing doesn’t match up at all with the way it was described in the interview.”

      If they’re all internal, I would go all in on the company at a fourth contact. Not mean, but pointing out that you don’t appreciate being bothered about this again, and that their time would be better spent making sure the recruiter and hiring manager were aligned, keeping records of who they’ve already dealt with, and sending out timely rejection letters.

      1. Evil HR Person*

        They’re external. This company has been looking for someone to hire for at least 5 months now, and I’m one of the few professionals in my area with a particular skill that they desperately need.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      The next time a recruiter calls tell them that they need to go talk to [names of the three previous recruiters]. Then sign off- “Gotta go, good luck in your search!”

    10. Zombie Unicorn*

      Tell them another recruiter owns your candidacy for this role, which they probably do….

    11. voluptuousfire*

      Hah. I had a similar thing happen years ago during the Great Recession. I was contacted by an agency for a temp recruitment coordinator role. I interviewed and didn’t get it because I didn’t have a solid year’s experience with the ATS (I had 11 months vs 12 months). Fine.

      After that, I was contacted 12 separate times in addition from Easter to Memorial Day for a role that was due to last until the end of the year. All from different agencies. The company was still using the same job description (that didn’t include the year experience they wanted) for each of the agencies. I was at the point where I was able to give the agencies more guidance on the role than the blasted company!

      I did leave a review on their Glassdoor to chronicle this. It felt like a friend going “I know someone who would be a great fit for you!” and ends up setting you up with an ex, not realizing you knew each other.

      I think I may have even been contacted by another recruiter when the role was opened again in the spring of the following year. LOL

    12. azvlr*

      I came here to post something very similar. I received ten calls about the same roll in the space of a few hours on Monday. I signed on with the first recruiter, but have not heard back from him since. Did he submit my resume? I have no way of knowing, and I’m now unable to have my resume submitted by the others.

      A recruiter I spoke to yesterday gave me some advice. If you have a recruiter who has gotten results for you in the past, and you learn of a role through an unknown recruiter, ask “your” recruiter if they can submit you. If the unknown recruiter has a relationship with the employer, then it might not be to your advantage, but at least you would know the status of your application.

      1. EH*

        This. When I’m actively jobhunting, I have a handful of local recruiters I work with and actually know and trust. They usually have a couple companies they recruit with and don’t overlap much, so when I find out about a new role, I know which one to ping and ask about it.

        I also ping these recruiters about once a week with an updated resume (if I’ve made edits) and a sort of general “heya, I am still looking, here’s what I’m looking for, thanks for keeping me in mind.” Got that tip a while back from my mentor and it has served me well so far.

    13. LilySparrow*

      I once had a series of interviews for a job that I was cold-called about – a face-to-face with the recruiter, one with the head of the recruiting firm, one with the HR rep at the company, and one with the hiring manager.

      Every single person at every stage asked me, “Why do you want to work for Company?”

      Including the recruiter who cold-called me in the first place!

      I replied with variations of, “I’m actually very happy at Current Job, but Mary approached me with an opportunity that sounded too good to ignore. So I’m here to find out as much as I can about the position to see if it might be a good fit.”

      I wound up getting an offer, so I guess it was a good answer.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Oh, and in my situation, it would have been a lateral move to the same role at a larger firm for substantially more money & PTO. So it was understood that “good opportunity” meant the compensation package.

    14. Jennifer Thneed*

      a) I hear about the same position from multiple recruiters all.the.time. If they’re internal recruiters, then *maybe* they have access to information from previous recruiters and maybe they don’t. If they’re external recruiters, there is no way they know about the recruiters from competing companies. So I just use one of my stock responses. Sometimes that is “I have already been submitted for this position”. Sometimes it’s just “No thank you”. Sometimes I include more information, like when it’s out of my field or out of my geographic area, but honestly the only time they get more information than that from me is when they’re recruiting for a specific energy company with very bad maintenance practices that led to pipeline explosions that killed schoolchildren and power lines that burned down entire neighborhoods.

      b) You seem to be interpreting “why do you want to work for us?” as “why did you contact us?” and perhaps you could interpret it as “why were you interested when our recruiter contacted you?” Because if you weren’t interested in what the recruiter had to say, you wouldn’t even be hearing the question, right?

      1. Evil HR Person*

        Totally right – and maybe what I’m hoping for is perspective. I’m too close to the situation and need a fresh set of eyes to reframe this for me ;-) so, thank you!! Truly.

    15. Emmie*

      I was once contacted by 4 outside recruiters for the same position. Recruiters and the company had interviewed me, and two friends. By Recruiter 3, I asked if the position was with that company. They were usually shocked that I knew, and asked how. I told them about my experience and my friend’s too. Recruiter 3 & 4 thanked me. Turns out the company had a hard time with staffing choices, but was also kinda recruiter shopping. That was helpful for those recruiters who work on commission.

    16. HBJ*

      To your last paragraph, Alison has actually answered this. She said to respond along the lines of “I’m not sure I am, to be honest. Since you reached out to me, I was hoping to hear more about the role from you.”

      I can’t find it in searching. This says they shouldn’t ask it, but I know there was a more specific question she answers about it. askamanager.org/2017/11/how-is-being-recruited-different-from-just-applying-for-a-job.html

    17. Silvercat*

      I’m apparently the only graphic designer in my county because I got called at least a dozen times about the same job, after I was working with a recruiter for it, the day I was interviewed, and after I was hired.

      Recruiters, I don’t even know.

      1. Jennifer Thneed*

        It’s sales. They’re salespeople, not HR people. And if they’re external recruiters, they’re playing a numbers game.

        1. whatthemell?*

          Yes! I worked in HR at one organization for about 12 years and the one area I really didn’t enjoy was recruiting. But since recruiting was only about 1/10th of the job, it was Ok. My cousin just switched from teaching to a recruiting job and apparently makes tons of money and LOVES the job. She keeps trying to convince me to transition to a strictly-recruiting position by telling me how much she makes, how easy it is now with LinkedIn and basically being able to pluck anyone from anywhere at any time…..and she basically contacts people on LinkedIn and sells the jobs she’s trying to fill (I think she works with higher-up executive positions so the commission is quite good) and it’s a numbers game. She had a never-ending pool of applicants and as long as she keeps plugging away, she’s making tons of dough.

          It sounds very unappealing to me personally BUT she’s incredibly passionate about so I’m happy for her. I’m not interested in sales jobs and know I’d be bad at it.

  2. Eillah*

    How can the admins at my company (myself included) successfully convince management that admins should be permitted to work from home?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Alison has recommended asking for a trial period, and that people are more willing to try changes out if they’re (initially) just for a few months as opposed to an outright switch.

    2. Psyche*

      Are you trying to get the position to become remote or just have the occasional work from home day?

        1. Psyche*

          In that case I would compile a list of the tasks you do and put which ones can be done remotely just as well, which are better in the office but can be done from home in a pinch and which need someone in the office. Then you can keep a log of how often each comes up and show that usually it won’t matter if you are there or not.

          1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

            Noting how often your attention is distracted from (routine remoteable task) by office noise etc could be useful.

            Spouse used to do a day a month from home purely for his reports’ timesheets – it was the difference between reliably submitting them on time, or not.

            Are you wanting to work remotely for a particular reason (e.g. when the AC is being serviced) or just as a general perk (e.g. not having to pay a dog walker for the midday walk)? If the timing doesn’t matter to you, you could tie it to a particular recurrent task or work phase to begin with.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Like all the time or just one day a week or as needed?
      I think all the time would be tough sell for an Admin. I’d suggest proposing a trial of say 1 day a week, alternating days if there are more than one of you. It will sort of depend on your duties too, so you’d want to carefully map out any coverage issues if someone must be at the office for certain things.

        1. Snark*

          Under what circumstances would the option be needed? Obviously I don’t really know all the ins and outs of your particular position, but I think of an admin as being an onsite position unless the office is closed for weather or something.

          1. Eillah*

            It’s good for the soul, we have obligations outside the office like everyone else, company is big on work/life balance. What’s the point of having such a large team of admins if they can’t cover for the few tasks an admin needs to be in office to do?

            1. Snark*

              I mean, I don’t disagree, it’s definitely good for the soul and everyone has obligations. As someone who could totally telework but who is prevented from doing so by a hidebound Boomer who likes seat time, I understand the frustration.

              But if an admin has in-office tasks, then that’s what they need you for. Obviously, there are admin positions like Elizabeth describes below that don’t, but.

            2. LGC*

              So, I think what Snark was getting at is…is a substantial part of your job being in the office? (You make it sound like a no, but who knows? I do want to point out that admins can be lots of different things – from filing to reception to aiding executives to managing an office.)

              To answer your actual question: the Alison answer is, “go to your boss as a group.” Beyond that, figure out the tradeoffs. Are you in the office because you’re on call for errands? You say that only a few of you need to be there…how many people are needed from your team?

              And what are the benefits? Morale is one. Another could be that you need fewer desks and smaller workspaces.

              This is a lot of high level stuff, and really they’re things your bosses need to consider. But it’s also good to think through these things yourself because there’s tradeoffs!

              For what it’s worth, though, it sounds like you probably could lobby for limited WFH (like, a couple of days a month). Good luck!

            3. fhqwhgads*

              I wouldn’t use those as part of your argument. Working from home may make some obligations outside the office easier, such as if your house is closer to Thing You Need To Do After Work than work is. But, at least everywhere I’ve worked (and I’ve been 100% remote for a long time), you’re expected to be as “on” as you would be in the office. So WFH doesn’t replace a need for childcare. Doesn’t mean you can do other stuff in between tasks (unless it’s the sort of thing no one would mind you doing in the office too) etc. Need to answer the door for the cable guy? Sure. But otherwise, for the most part WFH doesn’t actually facilitate the doing of outside of work obligations, nor should it.

            4. Groove Bat*

              I don’t understand your question: “What’s the point of having such a large team if admins if they can’t cover for the few tasks an admin needs to be in the office to do?”

              If there are tasks you need to be in the office to do, are you proposing that others do them for you so you can attend to your non-work obligations?

          2. Elizabeth West*

            It depends on the job, but if you’re not answering the phone, it totally can be remote. Exjob was a departmental admin position; I was not on the front desk, and almost everything I did was on the computer. I could work remotely if I wanted — most commonly if I had a repair person coming over, if the weather looked sketchy, or if I wasn’t feeling well. Sometimes clients would come into the office (mostly in other departments) and people worked from home so they didn’t have to dress up, lol.

            I took my laptop home with me the night before. The consultants I supported could contact me by IM. I even worked remotely while traveling once. It was totally doable.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Even if you’re answering phones, lots of places can forward calls to other sources. I have a code to punch into the phone at my desk and then everything goes to my cell phone. Including when someone forwards me a call from inside the office and such.

              1. Yorick*

                Yeah, as long as you’re not a receptionist at a desk people will go to for questions, WFH sometimes should be ok

            2. Gaia*

              Even if you’re answering phones, softphones are definitely a thing and this can easily be done from home.

    4. allison*

      Has management brought up reason why admins shouldn’t be allowed to work from home? Is there an existing wfh policy that applies to the non-admin employees?

      At my workplace, everyone can choose either Monday or Wednesday as their work from home day. I asked for Monday, the same one as the other admin on my team and they said no, one of us has to be in the office at all times. Now that it’s been a few months, I brought it up again. They said since they haven’t needed us for in-person things and I am willing to switch wfh day if one of us is needed, it would be okay for me to switch to Mondays.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Has the subject been brought up before? Is it something that’s been shot down before or is this a brand new discussion?

      If it’s a brand new discussion, things are a lot easier. If you’ve been told no before, then that would be another kettle of fish.

      If you just go in there with the logistics planned out, that’s a huge help. With duties that are easily done remotely, etc. But also keep in mind that remote access is a security risk and that may be the reason they are picky about who can have access to the system from outside the home office.

    6. Mama Bear*

      I think it partially depends on why they don’t currently have a policy or why admins are excluded. Do they want you there for face time/easier to swing by your desk? Does it seem like there aren’t many tasks that can be done remotely? Did someone in the past abuse the privilege? If you want a specific work from home day and you know other departments allow it, I’d angle for case by case approval. I like the idea of pointing out the things you can do remotely and how any other contingencies would be handled so no one was left hanging. In my case, we need high-level permission for Reasons, and I simply picked my day carefully, made my request, and then made sure I was responsive when I was out of office that day. I want to build reliability and maybe eventually get one regular day a week. If, for example, you want the option to work remotely if there is inclement weather, I’d specify that as well.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Do they want you there for face time/easier to swing by your desk?

        I think it’s a face time/optics thing for sure. A lot of companies have admins that are “the face” of the business if you will. Many of them have desks that are either out front like a receptionist or sit very close to the exec they’re supporting. If that desk is empty when visitors come or when someone internal drops by to ask a question, I’ve seen many execs get bent out of shape about that.

        Still, OP is right that a lot of what admins do can be done from home. Probably not full-time, but a couple times a month or so shouldn’t really be a big deal (unless of course the boss is like the execs mentioned above who value that “face of the company” thing). I like the idea of making a list of all the things that could be feasible to do from home and going from there.

        Good luck!

    7. hbc*

      See if you can anticipate all of their objections and have rules or parameters that address them. Make it a trial period, no more than X people WFH at a time, no one person WFH more than once a month, here’s how the calls get routed, maybe you’ll designate someone as your default “alternate” for random in-office things, planned X days in advance, here’s how you indicate in and out for lunch, a successful WFH day means responding to all calls in X minutes, all emails in Y minutes, and tasks A-F completed, etc..

      Basically, make them feel like the risk is very low for them giving it a shot.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Coverage scheduling may be key: Your WFH schedule & contact info will be posted. Someone will always be on site. X number of days a week everyone will be onsite for team meetings. If a hands-on special project requires you be onsite on your WFH day, you change your WFH day.
        Also considering proactively volunteering pictures of your home office location to show it meets general office requirements.

        Good luck!

    8. Bluesheart*

      My firm allows admins to home as needed but when I first requested it, I had to show the tasks that I would be doing at home and I had to provide my cell phone number so people can reach me if needed and now I can send a email saying that I will be working from home. It really helped when I was going with my mom for her doctor appointments for her upcoming surgery.

    9. Red shirt squad*

      I think it depends on the type of work you do. Part of our admin’s job is greeting visitors, filing, and processing/handing out reimbursement checks. None of that can be done from home. However they also do a lot of updating of computer records and files which could be done from home. So, if they needed an occasional day to work from home we could work that out but its not something they could more than once a week.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Related to this, it also depends on the work style of the people you’re supporting. Are they willing and able to batch assignments in a way that’s feasible for remote work?

        I have a freelance client right now who is highly collaborative and deadline driven. If she, and the designer, and the other stakeholder and I were all in an old-fashioned pressroom huddle right now, we could have knocked out our project in a couple hours this morning and gone to lunch. And I’d be happy to go onsite and do that.

        But no. Having us all on different ends of town is “high tech” or “convenient” or some bullshit like that. So now I’ve got feedback and questions coming in from 3 different people who decide on the fly whether to send it by text, or email, or sometimes my personal email (HOW? WHY?)

        It’s crazy making and ridiculous. So it’s not just a question of whether the person you’re supporting is onboard with WFH in theory. Are they going to make it worse than being in the ofgice?

        1. TechWorker*

          This is so interesting to me because there’s a section of my work that is almost always ‘remote’ due to time zone/location differences, and whenever we have a team member in the same time zone we notice the company as a whole is really keen on ‘war rooms’ to solve problems. Whilst *sometimes* these are useful the vast majority of the time they involve people talking over each other and everyone being involved at every level of the problem, rather than the async, over email standard where you get as far as you can with the problem, work out the right team and hand it over. I see war rooms as ineffective and a waste of time (although liked by some folk in senior management because if they can *see* people working then it must be quicker, right?) so it’s interesting to hear from someone with the opposite view!

          1. LilySparrow*

            That’s exactly the problem – everyone is talking over each other and being involved in every aspect, bu TV with the added lag time and lack of version control of waitng for people to check their messages and reply while someone else is already running ahead.

            Hence the batching aspect. If I could deliver the 5-6 short documents to everyone at once, get one round of feedback at a time on a single channel, turn them for Round 2, and so forth, this would be far more efficient.

            But the senior exec just doesn’t work that way, and they don’t use slack or google docs. If you’re going to be old-school, you’re better off being 100 percent oldschool.

            Being halfassedly digital is worse than analog.

  3. D.W.*

    I recently applied for a job at KPMG. Most companies now require that applicants setup an account with on their application program. I created the account and clicked “submit” and the system took me to the application page for the position.

    The system said that the application process would take approximately 10min (Yay!). I entered my bio info and uploaded my resume and clicked “submit”. The application was submitted! I spent three days writing a cover letter and I didn’t have the chance to submit it. There was no way of attaching more than one file. Was I supposed to include my cover letter and resume in one file? Have I ruined my chance of getting this job because there is no cover letter attached? Or did they not want a cover letter at all?

    Has anyone gone through KMPS’s application process?

    1. DaniCalifornia*

      I have! I didn’t submit a cover letter with them either and got contacted. I’ve experienced the same thing with other companies though. If I don’t see a place to submit the cover letter and resume on a page before hitting submit I will sometimes combine them and upload the 1 file.

    2. De Minimis*

      I did years ago, can’t remember about the cover letter.

      I don’t think it will hurt you too badly to not have one. I’ve applied for a ton of accounting firm jobs over the years, and I’ve only seen one where any real attention was given to the cover letter.
      Is this for an entry level position?

      1. D.W.*

        It’s a mid-career level position. It’s also not an accounting position. It’s in business operations.

        This was my first time applying for a position at an accounting firm, so it’s good to know cover letters may not be a thing in this industry!

        1. De Minimis*

          I think people tend to just quickly scan resumes to see if they have what they’re looking for. The only place I’ve seen where anyone cared was at a small firm. I doubt you’ll have a problem. Good luck!

        2. M*

          A relative of mine worked for KPMG in similar department (not accounting). Just an FYI these are not 40 hour week jobs no matter what they say. My relative got work done a lot quicker than others but was still expected to stay long hours. They left and are happier at another organization for a bit less money but WAY better benefits. Some people love the environment some don’t, it most likely isn’t 40/hours a week though.

          1. M*

            Also if really interested may want to look at recruiters. My relative applied through the website and wasn’t contacted until they reached out to a recruiter. Then the process went quickly. Hope this helps!

      2. Not in US*

        I personally screen out people who do not include a cover letter. I’m not in the US, do not work at KPMG (but in the same field), and it’s a deal breaker for me. I get enough resumes that I cut based on the inclusion of the cover letter and you go to the top of my pile if its actually good (assuming basic skills are there).

        Back when I was first starting to look for a job out of Uni the best piece of advice I got was to put it all in one file – and ideally do it as a PDF. I’ve always done so since. That’s what I would recommend. I would rather have it twice than not at all.

        Our system only allows one file.

    3. Alana Smithee*

      I came here to ask a similar question, though not for KPMG. I spent a week fretting about a cover letter, only for there to be no place in the company’s application system to submit one, only the ability to upload a resume (in addition to manually typing everything out, of course). I’m wondering if I should have included the cover letter in the resume document. In this situation, do I send a cover letter/email to hiring manager? Do I just assume they don’t want one and hope my resume will speak strongly enough for me to get an initial interview?

        1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

          This would cause a problem with the resume parsing stage, though, where they pull the bits of your resume into forms, right?

    4. austriak*

      I’m a CPA and worked in public accounting. I’ll be honest. The only time I’ve ever submitted a cover letter is when it is specifically stated in the posting that it is required, which isn’t often, and I’ve never had issues getting interviews or jobs. Maybe some industries or fields are really big into cover letters but I don’t see it in the accounting industry.

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Putting the cover letter in the doc with the resume is good practice when so many systems only allow one document. But remember, cover letters work best if they are NOT generic and don’t just regurgitate your resume.

      But while we’re on the subject, yesterday I worked with a job seeker who submitted only the resume because that’s how many slots there were, and the employer actually called up and asked her to write a cover letter for the job.
      Just when I thought I had heard everything!

      1. D.W.*

        This was the first time I’ve run into this situation. I thought I would have the opportunity on a separate page. It wasn’t until it was submitted that it dawned on me. Lesson learned! I will definitely look out for this in the future.

        1. Autumnheart*

          If you have the ability to log in and check the status of your application, you may be able to resubmit the file. Worth a look.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      Not theirs, but it’s hard to know when companies will do that. So what I do is make a cover letter / resume with the letter as the first page.

      If I get to that point and see there is an option to upload more than one document, then I can go back and remove the resume from the document and just upload it as a cover letter. Then I upload my resume separately.

    7. NJAnonymous*

      I currently work there on the advisory side and have worked at other Big Four Firms in similar capacities and have serve on hiring committees/interviews. Not once have I submitted a cover letter nor have I ever read one in my capacity as a manager or interviewer.

      Separately… if you don’t have keywords they’re looking for on your resume, it is tough to get into the hiring pipeline. Referrals always get bumped to the top of the queue, though, so if you know anyone there I’d recommend going that route.

    8. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      I did this once and just reached out to the company HR contact with an “I didn’t realize I couldn’t add a cover letter! I’m used to it being two different fields. Is there a way to have a cover letter added to my submission?”

      They had me send it to that person and it wasn’t a big deal.

    9. Sassy*

      When I get to one of those application systems with only one upload field, I merge my cover letter and resume both into a .pdf document and upload it that way. I also name the file “MyName Cover Letter and Resume” to be sure they get what I’m up to.

      That said, if they don’t provide a separate field for a cover letter, they should focus on your resume and follow up with you accordingly.

  4. Wearing Many Hats*

    Quick update to my question last week about letting my co-workers know my spouse has transitioned to female: I told the senior team (of which I am a part) via slack on Friday and they were very supportive. I haven’t really had the opportunity to talk to my co-workers about it, as I’m not much of a sharing lots of details about myself at work person and it just hasn’t come up. I did mention it to my ‘work friend’ and I’m sure it will come up at the next monthly diversity and inclusion roundtable, which I lead. Thanks for all your suggestions and feedback!

    3. Doing too many things*

      Yay! I’m so glad when I hear things went well for another member of the “my spouse has transitioned” club! (Hmm… that should be an actual club, with membership cards and a lounge with free massages and fancy drinks…)

    4. Penny*

      Congratulations, and glad it went well!

      I’m in this weird in-between place where we are mid-transition and still working out names and pronouns and all of that, so I feel fraudulent using old name and pronouns but don’t have a go ahead on new ones yet. It feels really awkward to me, but I need to remember that it would be a lot more awkward for the people around me if it were presented to them piece by piece the way it’s happening in our lives at home. Patience, self.

      1. Doing too many things*

        Yeah, I ended up saying “spouse” a lot during that time. And using awkward phrasing to avoid saying a name or pronoun, just because it felt so wrong to me.

    5. Zzzz*

      I’m another member of this club! My best advice is to find yourself a few really great allies who are willing to take on some of the work of spreading the word and correcting people for you. It does get exhausting “coming out” for your spouse over and over again.

      1. Wearing Many Hats*

        Uf I feel that. I brought it up in passing at lunch today and stumbled over myself.

    6. DreamingInPurple*

      If you don’t mind me asking, how did your round table discussion get started, and what level of employees are involved in it? Was it something that came down from a director of diversity and inclusion? I’d love to start some diversity and inclusion discussions at my workplace but I’m not sure who to reach out to for that.

      1. Wearing Many Hats*

        I work for a tiny start up and tech companies generally have terrible stats when it comes to diversity in staffing. When I started we had a women’s group, as we had few women in the company. In the past year we have significantly more women (about 40/60 with senior team split 50/50), but the demographics have changed and almost everyone at the company is white. I changed the woman’s group to include more perspectives and address our issues in recruiting candidates of color. We definitely have a ways to go, but I hope that by making people pay attention to these shortcomings we may make progress.

        It takes an entrepreneurial spirit to work here, so I wanted to start something, sold it to the senior team, and started it. We don’t have a lot of red tape in that regard, so my experience may not actually be very helpful.

        1. DreamingInPurple*

          You’re right that the specifics of our situations are pretty different, but you’ve given some great ideas to start from! I think putting the focus on recruitment would be helpful, and there might be some programs going that I could take advantage of. Thank you!!

  5. Toloanorno*

    Did you take out student loans for education (graduate or undergrad)? If so, how much and was it worth it? I want every side of the story! The good, the bad, the just fine, and the still paying off :)

    The backstory: I’m completely stressed out about taking student loans out for my husband’s education. We currently are in no debt, but we’re thinking of taking out >$100k in 3 years so he can go to graduate school (most likely law). By the time he graduates, we’d be early 30s and I’m worried about our net worth.

    Would love realistic input so I can stop freaking out – all I usually get on other sites is horror stories or from people now making hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Worked in higher ed for the past 15 years. I would make sure to examine all your options for funding before you commit to loans. You may be eligible for state funding from various sources including senators and delegates or your local higher education commission.

      If you do take out loans, consider where you are getting them and talk with a financial planner about all the options for loans. You don’t have use the loans you get through the normal application process. Is a second mortgage the right option for you, for example instead of Sallie Mae.

      If you take them out, you don’t have to accept the full loan amount. This is the biggest mistake I see students make. You may be eligible for more than school costs but that doesn’t mean you take it all out.

      1. Yorick*

        Depending on the type of law he wants to practice, there are forgiveness programs for public service, for law enforcement (prosecutors count), and for public defenders. Since only some loans are eligible, keep these in mind when you look at the different options.

        1. MeM*

          Most people (one article I saw said 99%!) have been denied for that program even when they qualified and thought they did everything right. You should be wary to rely on it.

          1. Gaia*

            Not quite. Most people *thought* they did everything right but we’re misled by their loan servicer. The rest haven’t been denied, their application hasn’t been processed for months.

            2. MeM*

              “Thought” was in my comment.

              Also according to Forbes.com:”The latest student loan debt statistics show that more than 99% of people who applied for public service loan forgiveness have been rejected.”
              Not processing, rejected.

              1. Mellow*

                Because (from the same Forbes.com article):

                “Of that total, more than 73% of applications have been denied due to student loan borrowers not meeting the program requirements. For example, borrowers did not have eligible student loans, make 120 qualifying payments or have qualifying employment.”

                “Another 25% of applications for public service loan forgiveness were denied due to missing or incomplete information on the employment certification form.”

                “The most recent data reflects some of earliest applicants to the program, which started in 2007, and required 10 years of student loan payments. Over time, the approval rates should increase as more borrowers become familiar with the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program.”

                Here are 4 things to remember:

                1. Complete the Employment Certification Form

                You must complete the Employment Certification Form. How often should you submit the employment certification form for public service loan forgiveness?

                You should submit the Employment Certification Form to the U.S. Department of Education:

                when you begin a job in public service
                when you switch employers
                annually to ensure you’re on track
                2. Enroll in an income-driven federal student loan repayment plan

                To be eligible for public service loan forgiveness, you must be enrolled in an income-driven federal student loan repayment plan. Remember, only federal student loans are eligible for public service loan forgiveness. You also must make a majority of the 120 required payments while enrolled in a federal student loan repayment plan.

                3. Consolidate your federal student loans (if necessary)

                Only Direct student loans qualify for public service loan forgiveness. If you have Perkins Loans, FFEL Loans or you borrowed student loans before 2011, you may need to consolidate these federal student loans into a Direct Consolidation Loan. You can consolidate federal student loans through StudentLoans.gov.

                4. Refinance your student loans

                If you plan to have your federal student loans forgiven, you still need an action plan for your private student loans. The good news is you can refinance private student loans and lower your interest rate – even if you are enrolled in public service loan forgiveness.

              2. Gaia*

                A rejected application does not mean the forgiveness is denied. This is important to the ongoing lawsuits. This program has been handled horribly, there is no two ways about that. But to say 99% have been denied is just not true.

          2. ampersand*

            This. I would not assume PSLF is even an option given how poorly the government is handling it.

        2. Lobsterman*

          It is very important to understand that the forgiveness programs are straight scams. Nobody gets that money.

      2. Kotow*

        If you’re part of an underrepresented group, you can do the whole three years for next to nothing, at least that’s how it worked at my law school. I wasn’t, and had the “privilege” of paying for it via loans in inflated amounts so that others could go to school for free. And I grew up in a blue collar town with parents who did nothing to help pay for college let alone law school. Unless you can pay for it out of pocket, don’t do it. I graduated in 2011 at 25 with $150,000 in debt, did document review for the first three years at $20 an hour ($40 if I was able to land a foreign language gig) and now by default have my own practice grossing about $70,000 a year. About 55 percent of my class was unemployed a year after graduating. Many of my loans were private because of maxing out the federal limits so income based repayment isn’t an option. About 33 percent of my income goes to my loans and I live paycheck to paycheck as a result. But, because the gross income is so high, you won’t be eligible for any assistance and there’s the social perception that lawyers are rolling in income. I pay my Affordable Care Act “tax” each year because that’s more manageable than paying for insurance I won’t use. This level of debt means you don’t own a house, you don’t travel, and every decision is based around when the payments come due.

        I won’t say I regret my career choice, but the debt is crippling and if you go to law school because of the stereotype that “lawyers make money,” the reality is that most just aren’t doing that well. The people I went to high school with who never went to college are doing much better than I am.

      1. Short & Sweet*

        ^This^ is the most critical question! Take out loans to be able to make much more (than the loans), doing something you want to be doing! and something that will be in demand. If you’re not sure about the job outlook, or if it’s something you’re not sure you’ll want to do for the long haul, then it’s crazy to go into huge debt to get there.

      2. Yorick*

        I’m not a lawyer, but I’m hearing that law jobs are harder to get lately than people realize.

        1. The Original K.*

          I know a lot of lawyers and very few of them would recommend entering the profession. None of them would recommend going into debt for it. All of them had loans; some still have them, some have paid them off.

          I think people hear lawyer and automatically think high salary, and that’s less true than people think.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          Every lawyer I know, and I know many because I worked at a law firm for three years and then in insurance claims with a bunch of former attorneys turned adjusters, has said that if your schooling isn’t already paid for by scholarships/grants and if you’re not planning to go into litigation, skip law school. All but one of them think it’s not worth it, and most of them regret getting that JD and passing the bar. It’s so sad.

      3. Parenthetically*

        Yep, this. If you can’t be VERY SURE that you’re going to have an easy time finding steady employment in a field, borrowing six figures to enter that field is the DEFINITION of a bad financial decision.

    3. Blue Eagle*

      Do you ever listen to Dave Ramsey’s radio show (he is a financial guy)? So many people call in about their debt problems and the difficulty of paying them off – the main culprit is student loans.
      Before taking on >$100K of debt for anything other than buying a house, I would be very careful to do a cost-benefit analysis – (1) are you certain that your husband will be able to make a salary to allow repayment without impacting the other things you want to do in life and (2) is your husband certain that he will want to do that job once school is done. Some AAM commenters have written in that after completing their schooling and doing the job for awhile, they don’t really like it and want to do something else but are saddled with school debt to repay.
      Just some things to think about.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Revealing my full Dave geekiness here, but Anthony ONeal (one of Dave’s “Ramsey personalities”) has a new book coming out about how to go to college without debt. It may not be great, but I would spend $15 to check it out before committing to student loans. Not sure if it has anything on law school or grad school.

        OP didn’t ask for opinions, but I would be in camp “find another way”. I think a lot of married students want to have their cake and eat it too. I went through undergrad as a married mom, and my husband carried all the household expenses, and with my scholarships, I did not have to take on any debt. . .but we lived in a pest-infested rental and he worked 70 hrs a week. I took a massive amount of hours/semester to get through as fast as possible, too, and I would have worked if I didn’t have the baby. I don’t know what lifestyle flexibility you have, but if he could work another year or two, and work like he’s lost his mind to save up, I would do that. I’m 41 now and can say the old person advice that a couple years deferred is not that much. Being trapped by >$100k in debt seems a lot harder on people and marriages.

      2. Samwise*

        Other questions: Which schools is he looking at, how much do they charge, is there a substantial difference in your education at a cheaper school, is there a substantial difference in your career prospects at a cheaper school, does your husband have an idea of the career he wants to go into: if yes, then how important is it to have X graduate degree (=does it have to be X graduate degree or could it be in a range of fields or any field), why is he interested in this career, does he understand what people in this career do all day and is he interested in doing those things. If he gets the degree and then can’t get a job in that career area, what’s his plan? If he doesn’t know what he wants to do for a career, why is he aiming for graduate school? Can he do other (less expensive) things to get a better idea of careers he’s interested in?

        That’s a crap-ton of money. Don’t spend it until you/your husband have the answers to these questions.

    4. Emmie*

      I am not comfortable posting how much student loan debt I have. I am a lawyer, and the degree is not worth $100,000 debt. That much debt is crushing, and life altering. Despite popular belief, law is not a lucrative career especially with that much debt, overpopulation of lawyers, competition for limited jobs, etc…. There are, however, ways to be a lawyer without so much debt. I recommend these things – and wish I would’ve known about them to reduce debt:
      * Get the highest LSAT score possible. Take a prep class (like Kaplan’s), and replete it more than once if you have to. Schools work to encourage high LSAT scorers because it boosts their rankings.
      * High LSAT scorers get into good schools. Go to a school with the most scholarship opportunity. Look for schools who offered him scholarships for all years of law school that are NOT tied to grades or class ranking.
      * Look at schools who have cheap in state tuition, and consider establishing residency in that state. This may present some risk because it assumes you will get into the school. In hindsight, I wish I would’ve gone per time to Florida A & M (the in state tuition was great then!)
      * Do not take out extra student loans for living expenses, or other stuff.
      Good luck.

      1. Yorick*

        I agree with the last point. My student loan debt is higher than necessary because I took out extra for living expenses, and I do regret that a bit.

        1. Mid*

          Some people don’t really have an option. It’s different if you have a spouse/partner who can help support you, but most schools strongly encourage 1Ls not to work, and everyone I know who is in law school says it’s really not possible to work enough to support yourself while in law school. Which is partially why so many people take out loans to live off of.

          More to the point of the question, this is something I’m debating as well. I want to go to law school, and have for some time, but I have undergraduate loans that I want to finish paying off before I take out more loans. And by the time I finish paying off my undergrad, I’ll be 30 years old. Then, I’d be looking at taking out $100k in loans, which will take decades to pay off.

          I think you should really think about the quality of life you’re looking for. If you have $100k in debt, will you get to take vacations in your 30s? Buy a house? Have a family? Save for retirement? Will law school be a beneficial choice for your entire family?

          1. Federal Middle Manager*

            “[M]ost schools strongly encourage 1Ls not to work, and everyone I know who is in law school says it’s really not possible to work enough to support yourself while in law school…”

            There are evening / part-time programs that make this do-able. I consider this to be just one piece of many pieces of bad advice I got in law school. /sigh

      2. MsChanandlerBong*

        My friend is an attorney with $70,000 in loans. Firms in her town are advertising openings for $14 an hour. And they’re not “Recent grads, come work with us while you study for the bar” openings. They want bar-admitted attorneys with some experience to work for $14 an hour. It’s ridiculous.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          That is insane. I see job openings at warehouses for that and think it’s ridiculous, nm for an attorney.

          My son’s roommate’s sister is in law school at Georgetown & is taking out loans like they’re candy. Their parents aren’t particularly good with money, and her dad is a low-paid lawyer (has his own firm, works a light schedule, enjoys life and relaxing). They give their kids pretty poor advice.

          Anyway, she had an offer for a paid DC internship last summer & turned it down and work for free in her hometown (living with her boyfriend). It’s like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Tons of loans, not pursuing the right career opportunities. Yikes.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            She turned down a paid internship?! I would have killed for one of those when I was in college (both of mine were unpaid, so I also had to work part-time and take classes). This child is special.

      3. LawLady*

        “Go to a school with the most scholarship opportunity. Look for schools who offered him scholarships for all years of law school that are NOT tied to grades or class ranking.”

        OP, this is really important. As enrollment as plunged, law schools are engaging in shadiness. It’s a fairly common practice for a school to offer many students scholarships and then require that you keep a certain class rank or GPA in order to maintain the scholarship. Law school is graded on a curve, so regardless of how hard everyone works, the same percentage of people are going to lose their scholarships each year. But those students feel like once they’ve started, they can’t stop, so they end up paying full freight for two years, when they had thought they’d only be paying half. Really common trap!

    5. Wing Leader*

      Student loans are a big no for me. We have six-figures of student loan debt between my husband and me, and neither of us make enough money to pay it off. Complete waste of time and money.

      That said, if your husband genuinely intends on going into a career that could (at least eventually) be high paying, then it could be worth it. But DO NOT take out loan money just to try a few things and figure out what you want to do, only to realize that you don’t want to do any of it. That’s what happened to both my husband and me. We were both were sold the narrative that going to college was the only way to get a job–different schools, different majors, two degrees for me and one for my husband. All for nothing.

      Just make sure your husband is clear on what he wants to do. Also, I would start making a plan now–before you even have the loans–on how you’re going to pay them back. And take into account some risks that may pop up, like your husband not getting a very high salary to start with or whatever. Then you can see where you really stand.

      1. Yorick*

        I agree. Only take student loans if you have a career plan that you’re very sure about and the degree is necessary for it (especially later in life).

      2. Federal Middle Manager*

        This is great advice. Know what you want to do (and, better yet, get some experience in that field) before going to grad school. Turns out, idealist law students who want to work in “environmental law” or “with civil rights” are a dime a dozen.

    6. austriak*

      Everyone thinks that lawyers make a ton of money. The truth is that a minority of lawyers make a ton of money and those are usually the ones that go to top schools. If this isn’t a top 20 law school, I wouldn’t go into that much debt. Also, are you and your husband prepared to live the lawyer life which is essentially 80+ hours and high burn out for the next many years?

      1. LawLady*

        For people interested, googling “bimodal lawyer salary distribution” will give you some really helpful graphs. Basically the “average” salary is $80k, which sounds great. But no one is making $80k. There’s a huge set of people making <$50k and a small set of people who start at $190k (BigLaw). So people are wooed by the "average" when in reality that average isn't achieveable.

    7. MissDisplaced*

      I took out student load when I returned to collage at age 40.

      Fortunately, I only had one year undergrad to finish and then 2 years grad school. The total was $50k, because I took out some extra because I was unemployed at the time and needed to live while in school (plus I also worked part time). It’s not great because I’m 50+ now and paying student loans when I should be saving for retirement. However, I would never have gotten the well paying job I have now without that graduate degree.
      It is what it is.

    8. DaniCalifornia*

      Following only because I am in a similar boat! I am trying to finish a combined undergrad/grad while working FT and I just want it done. It’s all online but to finish up my 18-22 classes in the next 2 years we are thinking of doing a smaller loan instead of paying for 1 class at a time. My husband had his postgrad paid for by work and we don’t qualify for any kind of need, and with my PT school status I can’t get scholarships. But if I can up it to FT I can qualify for loans/scholarships.

    9. De Minimis*

      It was worth it for me, but I had a very concrete career goal–I went into a graduate program in accounting in order to do a career change. My only regret is I probably should have borrowed a bit less, but my school unfortunately did not have things set up very well for working adults, and I had a lot of classes that were only offered during the regular workday.

      One guideline people use is that your student debt shouldn’t be more than what you expect to earn per year after graduation. I met that, but just barely, and my income has gone up and down. My student loan is currently manageable but I’m on the worst possible payment plan as far as interest. The goal is to get other debt taken care of and then focus on the student loan–or possibly change payment plans to where I’d qualify for Public Service Loan Forgiveness some day [my career is in the non-profit/govt sector.]
      >100k is a lot of debt, and I’d be concerned for a field like law where employment seems to be an issue. Though if it was your only debt, it might be more manageable.

    10. facepalm*

      My wife owes more than 125k from law school. Her loan payments each month are nuts. She has developed a somewhat niche expertise in a lower-paying specialty and makes around 65k a year being self-employed (before taxes). She was previously employed by legal aid (maybe at 35k? with loan repayment/assistance through grants) and by the state (about 50k). She is in court multiple times weekly, lots of face time with judges and is very well respected and regarded in our area, which makes her solo practice possible.

      Also, for income based repayment plans, the government requires my information as well, so I guess my income is considered because we’re married, even though we keep our finances separate. Unless your husband has a burning desire and lifelong dream to be an attorney, I do not recommend this route at all. Especially if he doesn’t have any connections in the legal field. A ton of people my wife went to school with have already left the profession, either because they couldn’t find meaningful work or they hated it or couldn’t handle the stress. And there’s a lot of stress. Each year they have to take continuing education hours about substance abuse and there’s a special resource at the state bar for helping attorneys with their substance abuse problems.

      Of course, it’s entirely possible to graduate with the debt and have a successful career, but I would also suggest you search “legal profession oversaturated” or something like that. Of course the law schools will keep accepting applicants and churning our graduates, because at those rates, it’s a gold mine for them. If he choose to pursue this route, make sure you live somewhere long enough to get in-state tuition.

      1. Natalie*

        Also, for income based repayment plans, the government requires my information as well, so I guess my income is considered because we’re married, even though we keep our finances separate.

        You can avoid this by filing your taxes as married-filing-separately. However, that filing status disqualifies you from a bunch of credits, so it’s not always a given that you’ll be better off that way. Particularly if you have children, it can end up as a wash once the lost tax credits are factored in.

        1. Officious Intermeddler*

          This is only true for some income-based repayment plans. Revised Pay as you Earn (RePaye), the plan that I and many other lawyers I know use, counts your spouse’s income *even if* you file separately.

      2. Another JD*

        My husband has law school loans and is on the income-based repayment plan for public service. We have to file taxes as married filing separately or they take 15% of my income.

        1. AnonLawyer*

          Same here. We do get a huge hit on annual taxes filing separately. It’s not perfect by far, but it’s manageable.

    11. LadyByTheLake*

      I’m a lawyer and it was a mixed bag. I came out of law school with a huge (for the time) debt — had a good job for two years and could pay, had “just getting by” jobs for two or three years and could not pay so everything was in forbearance for a couple of years with interest accruing (it was critical to be in forbearance so that it didn’t hit the credit reporting too hard). I got a better job and was able to catch up (plus buy a modest house) and once I had a really good job I was able to accelerate payments and be debt free in about 12 years after graduation. I make a ton of money now and I’ve never regretted taking out the loans. I will also say that law was a good choice for me, I had every confidence that it would work well with how I think, I did extremely well in law school and have done well in law. Your husband’s mileage may vary.

    12. Quill*

      I did loans for undergrad but based on my scholarship situation I’m not sure I have a very typical experience. I managed to pay all my loans back by 26 due to a combination of living rent free at my parents’ place, the amount that they paid out of pocket, and a scholarship that meant I paid less than half of what I would have paid at a local state college.

      My advice: investigate all possible avenues to not take on the whole thing in loans.

    13. tcro*

      I have a few comments, and hopefully they are helpful… (background: my husband has been a lawyer since 2011)
      -I think that your husband wants to be REALLY CERTAIN that law is the profession for him. In your initial post, it seems like he’s not fully committed to what kind of graduate degree to get… and people who are SURE they want to go to law school end up bailing on it as a profession after a few years. That doesn’t mean that the skillset won’t translate into another job, potentially another well-paying job at that, but…. you don’t want to choose law school on a whim.
      -When my husband graduated, there were a lot of people in his class who struggled to find positions. I’m not sure if that’s changed more recently, but definitely would want to look into placement numbers.
      -His first job out of law school, he was making around $50-60k. If I remember correctly, for a brief time, I was making more than him (I was in retail management). Depending on the firm, and how well your husband does in his job, you can get large raises fairly quickly and decent-size bonuses, depending.
      -It can be hard to find a law job that actually matches with the part of the law you want to pursue and you might get stuck doing something that is very rote and boring (which can be said of many jobs).
      -He is making a 6-figure salary for the first time after 7-8 years in the field, but only after he moved to a big-name, large firm. It can be tricky to get a job in one of those kinds of firms without some kind of foot in the door (typically, they’ll make job offers to many of their “Summer Associates” (ie interns) but it’s very competitive to get those slots) and/or if you have a friend who already works there, they can sometimes put in a good word.

      The chance to make a lot of money in law is definitely there…. but it’s not as easy as many people might assume.
      (*I failed to answer part of your original question…. my in-laws paid for his law school tuition. We often think that if we’d had to take out loans for it, we would definitely be struggling financially).

      1. Wing Leader*

        Totally agree with everything said here. I’m not a lawyer, by the way, but I’m an assistant in a law firm. Like tcro, it sounds like your husbands is not fully committed to law. That’s a very serious conversation that the two of you need to have. You don’t go to law school just to try it out. You go because you want it no matter what.

        Also, as mentioned, it’s a huge myth that lawyers are rolling in the money when they come out of school. First, getting a job is very competitive. He will have internships and things that can help him get a foot in the door, but it’s still tough. Second, lawyers are not offered a shiny, six-figure salary along with their diploma.

        The firm I work for, while well-respected for our area, is not overly large or flashy. We do have some partners that take home a very pretty paycheck, but that’s only the guys that have put in 60+ hours a week for the majority of their adult life. Most of the newer, younger lawyers make about 50-60k.

      2. wittyrepartee*

        As I understand it- a lot of times Law School isn’t the problem, it’s that a lot of the career tracks in law are just… very unappealing. It seems like this is especially true for the really Type-A people who really wanted to be the person making legal arguments but who needs to work in corporate law in order to pay off loans.

    14. ThatGirl*

      I am lucky enough to not have student loans. My husband has some loans and he has a master’s degree in counseling.

      For him, it got him into the field and job he wanted and the amount wasn’t crushing (the repayment is $200 a month) BUT he specifically wanted to go into college counseling. Which is a wonderful path to take, and I’m extremely proud of him, but if he didn’t have a wife/second household income I don’t think he’d be able to support himself. He definitely couldn’t live alone; his salary is pathetically low and he’s never had a raise. Of course there are many other career paths he could’ve taken though private practice has many foibles of its own. For *us* it was worth it but the career path he chose might not have been, were he single.

      Also, I have a friend who’s got a law degree and a lot of loan debt and I think some days she regrets it – she didn’t really want to practice law; she wanted to get into HR (and focused on employment law). She is in HR now, but she didn’t really need the law degree to get that job.

    15. CatCat*

      I did. Over $100k. I owe more now than when I graduated because my payments do not keep up with the high interest rate. I am working toward public service loan forgiveness. Worth it for me. I enjoy my line of work (law) and could not have done it without the education. It has delayed some things for me like the possibility of home ownership, mostly because I am unwilling to take on more debt until I am done with the student loans. Dealing with the loan servicer can be an exercise in madness sometimes.

      I do have former classmates who haaaaated law practice and regretted doing it (happy when they got out, but still had to pay back those loans).

      1. AnonLawyer*

        I will say I love my job but I work a flexible government job that still pays well. I would probably make twice as much at a firm but it wasn’t worth it for me.

          1. AnonLawyer*

            You get a lot of negative voices about going to law school (and Inwould be cautious right now, given I think the economy is about to take a hit).

            I am generally very very happy I went to law school. My undergrad degree was in a lab science but I was burned out on lab work and really unhappy. I am much happier writing legal memos all day. I did graduate near the top of my class, which probably made a difference. If you’re going to law school, commit 100%.

    16. AnonLawyer*

      I did. I made sure to borrow everything federally and met with a financial planner. I consolidated federally and entered IBR. I work for the government and have been dutifully sending in my verification statements every year for PSLF. Be careful, I get solicitations at least once a week to refinance privately. That would destroy PSLF status.

    17. Trek*

      It’s not worth it to take out student loans for law school or any other degree. Pay cash for the degree even if it takes longer but don’t go into debt. There are too many what ifs involved. What if your husband doesn’t pass the bar and cannot work as an attorney? What if he can’t finish school because of medical or some other reason? Student loan debt is not bankrupt-able. I would also make sure you are not on any of the loans, co-signer or join applicant or anything. Talk to an attorney. If you and your husband split up you don’t want anyone coming after you for the repayment. There have been parents who co-signed loans and their child died and they were still on the hook for the loans.

      1. LawLady*

        I don’t think “no education debt ever” is a reasonable brightline rule for everyone. Like with any major life decision, you have to weigh your potential earning power against the cost.

        If everyone followed your rule, the only people entering medical school would be the kids of the rich or people 50+ who have saved every penny to pay $300k cash (what medical school tends to cost).

        1. Natalie*

          Right? Good luck earning enough money for college at the kind of minimum wage jobs 18 year old high school grads generally qualify for.

          There’s certainly a balance to be struck as far as how much student loan debt is prudent, and whether private loans are ever a good idea, but “no student loans ever” is unrealistically rigid.

        2. AnonLawyer*

          Pretty much no one would go to law, medical, dental, or vet school unless they had family money.

          My Dad had his med school paid for by the Navy but that program is unbelievably hard to get into today.

        3. tamarack & fireweed*

          The only people *in the US*. If that happened, the US would import (even more) doctors who were more cheaply (to the student) educated elsewhere.

      2. Megan*

        I took out loans for undergrad (~40,000 for four years) and a couple of loans to help ease the financial strain in grad school. I was in a “fully-funded” PhD program making ~$23,000 /year, which was doable but didn’t stretch to cover things like seeing my family across the country or repairing my car. The last two years there I took out an additional 10,000 each year because I had a sightline on my future job prospects and earning potential and figured the amount would make more difference to me now than later. I was right. So all told, I took out about 60,000, but it ballooned to ~90,000 by the time I started paying back (interest still accumulates during deferment).

        I’m still paying it back but I work in a field I love, am very well compensated, and can easily make the payments and afford the rest of my life as well. I was 100% the right choice for me to take out loans, but I did it with a few key things in mind:

        1)How much is my earning potential likely to be boosted by this education? Both schools I went to for undergrad and graduate school were highly ranked (#2 and #1), and placement stats out of each were good. It made more sense for my lifetime earning potential to take out reasonably sized loans than go to a less elite school and potentially take a hit on lifetime earning.

        2) Will this work make me happy? For grad school, I specifically chose a PhD partially because I didn’t want to go into debt for a masters. Its a larger time commitment that takes you more years outside of the workforce, but for me it was worth it, particularly to do work I love. I got my PhD and did not go into academia, and I have found a good fitting job making good money in my field. It was definitely worth it.

        Everyone’s personal calculus will be different! Go into loans with eyes wide open.

      3. krysb*

        Yeah, that’s not really possible. I work full-time at a decent-paying job, but if I had to pay my tuition out-of-pocket, I wouldn’t be able to pay my mortgage. When standard, low-cost tuition is running $10,000 a year…. how many of us have that much expendable cash on a yearly basis?

    18. CupcakeCounter*

      Hubs and I were in the lucky bucket. His parents paid for all tuition and books so he only needed to pay for living expenses. He worked summers and school breaks and saved everything to fund his room and board – $0 loans, $0 debt.
      I was a bit flakier. Had a school fund from my grandmother and my parents paid for local community college tuition and books (all living expenses were on me if I decided not to live at home). When I transferred to 4-year university, same deal. Books and tuition paid for by trust (which I now controlled) and all living expenses on me. I hated that university so dropped out for a bit and Hubs and I used remaining college $$ for the down payment on our first home.
      Several years later I finally went back to school in a totally different major and had to retake a few classes that wouldn’t transfer. Had an AMAZING professor who advised me to try to test out of a few the classes which I did easily and at about $50/test. Saved approximately $5k in books and tuition there. Worked and went to school part time (and worked for a school district as a full time equivalent which meant full benefits for about 30 hours/week) for a while until I only had my major coursework left and the available schedules didn’t work with the job. During this time we paid cash for all tuition and books.
      When I had to leave that job in order to finish my degree we decided to take out loans and have me go FT to get it done ASAP. About $25k was approved and I ONLY used what I absolutely needed so still had a little over $5k left at graduation. Immediately turned that back over to the loan company and since we were used to living pretty bare bones nearly all of my post-college paychecks went straight to the loan. Paid it off in just under a year then took a great vacation.
      The reason that worked is we were in a dual income household and had slowly migrated our bills down in anticipation of temporary loss of income. If you can swing it, put off law school for a bit and immediately start putting 100% of his salary into a savings account and live off just the one income (do not change your regular savings or 401k contributions as well as anticipate an increase in insurance costs if you are now covering spouse).
      Use that savings to pay for as much of his expenses as possible and look into alternative financing other than a traditional student loan (such as a second mortgage or HELOC if you own your home and have equity). Others have given more specific ideas about ways to minimize the law school costs.

    19. Ann Perkins*

      We’re still paying off my husband’s master’s degree. I’m not sure how much the original loan amount was since it was before we were married but around $80K I believe. He regrets it and does not feel as though it’s been worth the money. He’s a federal employee, so his GS level is what it is regardless of whether he has a master’s.

      I work in a compliance role and some of my counterparts have a JD, but my job can be done without it. I thought of law school myself or a masters in public administration, but I graduated undergrad in 2009 and I’m glad I did not go that route, as the market became oversaturated with recent law grads in my area at least. I worked as a paralegal for a few years and the associates at the firm where I worked (LCOL) made around $60K I believe.

    20. anon MBA*

      Here’s my take on this – if you’re going to take out a TON of money for grad school loans, you should be going to a top school with pretty clear career prospects. When I applied to MBA programs, I applied to 6 schools in the top 20 (most in the top 10). I figured I’d just go for it and if I didn’t get in, I’d skip the MBA and figure out something else to do for my career. I ended up getting into 2 of the 6 programs. I came out of school with a good 6-figure paying job and a good name on my resume that has definitely helped me when looking for new jobs. I also had savings to cover my living expenses, and got a 40% scholarship (which was the deciding factor in deciding between the two programs, since they were roughly equally ranked). It made it much easier for me to get out of debt quickly after school.

      So if your husband is planning something similar, I think it can be worth it. But I see a lot of people spend a LOT of money on no-name programs that don’t really help them get anywhere in their careers. If he doesn’t think he has the qualifications to get into a big-name school and doesn’t have a very clear idea of his career path, I’d be very hesitant to get into that much debt.

    21. Fikly*

      I am currently considering this for myself. The rule of thumb I am using is, based on salaries for post-grad jobs, how long will it take me to pay back the loans?

      Currently, the tuition for the degree I need is less than the annual starting salary I can expect to get in my first year working with this degree (it’s a field with a huge lack of supply, hence this lovely disparity). That’s the kind of situation I’d feel comfortable with loans in. But not something where it would take more than 5 years to pay them off.

    22. CheeryO*

      Is your husband POSITIVE that law is for him? I work with a lot of attorneys who couldn’t hack it in the private sector (their words) and moved to state government because it’s less soul-sucking, the hours are normal, etc. The only problem is that they make probably $70K on average, which is a nice salary but may not be enough to comfortably make big loan payments alongside all the other life stuff – YMMV.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I make this much and have huge loan payments, plus pay the rent on a luxury apartment – as a single person with no kids or pets, it’s manageable. I’m also still saving, still investing, and I have play money, so I think that a salary around that point would be okay for the OP’s husband with the debt factored in. The only problem is, there’s no guarantee he’d get one of the $70-80k a year law jobs fresh out of law school/passing the bar.

    23. 867-5309*

      All my friends and colleagues who are attorneys said they would not recommend someone go to law school. The earning wages are generally not high enough to pay back the loans with a significant burden and there is an over abundance of attorneys.

    24. I'm A Little Teapot*

      The really important thing to do is to very practically, realistically, and harshly evaluate potential earnings and job market. If you want to go to law school and then do x, which is already a saturated market, then no. If x is short on people, then maybe. If x pays enough to repay loans, etc, that strengthens the argument.

      Lots of people want to be actors or artists or pro sports. Very few people actually succeed. Dreams are good. But reality will win. Don’t let reality destroy you.

    25. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Student loans can be worth it.

      However the horror stories for you:

      BFF 1 has +/1 50k in debt. Cannot find a job in the field of study and is paying those back working a retail job.

      BFF 2 has more debt. Cannot find a job in the field of study. Is paying those back working retail. Thankfully she has a spouse to help with their household income. Only the spouse also has student debts. And again working in retail.

      Good friend went to med school. So 250k debt in the end. Decided it wasn’t for them and had to find a job elsewhere. Thankfully they found a high compensating job after going back for their MBA so they’re able to float through comfortably enough.

      Colleague went to get his law degree. Graduated. Didn’t find a law job for almost 8 years.

      It depends so drastically and everyone is different. Is he already working?! Will this advance his already started career? If it’s to advance, it’s more worth it than if you’re just thinking of dipping into law in your 30’s.

      1. AnonLawyer*

        Yeah I know someone who failed the bar repeatedly and works as a waiter.

        It worked out for me 100%, but not for all of my classmates, for sure.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          My colleague didn’t even fail the bar, got it on the first try. He’s incredibly smart and well equip for lawyering but just getting a firm to give him a shot, so drastically hard. It can be a regional thing as well I’ve learned.

    26. LawLady*

      I took out almost $200k in loans for law school. I’m now 2 years into practice, have paid off more than half of it, and absolutely love my job and am thrilled I made that choice.
      BUT there are caveats. I went to a law school where BigLaw was basically a guaranteed outcome. I had worked in finance tangential to BigLaw, so I knew what the job actually looked like. And I absolutely love corporate finance. Like, love it in my bones.
      So, so many of my classmates and colleagues are unhappy. They went to law school with vaguely justice-y, academic inclinations. And then graduated and discovered that the choice with that kind of debt is either BigLaw or public interest (with eventual forgiveness, but debt hanging over them for 10 years). BigLaw is an absolutely awesome job if you love it. But it’s soul-crushing if you don’t. It’s often 80-100 hour weeks. And not everyone loves corporate finance (or another of the BigLaw specialties). You have to be SURE.

      1. emmelemm*

        Echoing the “vaguely justice-y or academic interest” = probably end up not satisfied with your career in the end. So many people I know were interested/motivated by that sense towards law. And it’s a great motivation! But not a great life path.

        My partner went to a law school with a highly regarded environmental law program (not his specific area of interest, but the draw for many of the students there). The thing is, the Sierra Club might be hiring max, 1 lawyer per year. Is it going to be you? Well, are you going to win the lottery?

        There are only so very, very few justice-y jobs to go around. So, the rest of the people with those inclinations end up in less fulfilling jobs, with less money because they didn’t BigLaw track themselves, because “ugh, BigLaw”.

        1. LilySparrow*

          Yeah, I worked as an assistant in different legal specialties for a lot of years. Idealism will get you into law school, and maybe even through law school, but it will not get you through a viable law career.

          To successfully navigate a law career, you must be comfortable with a pretty high level of cynicism and pragmatism, just because that’s the way the law works. And that’s what a lawyer is for, really – to serve the client’s interest in the most practical way without violating ethical rules. That is not always easy to do.

          The only stubborn idealists I ever met who stayed in practice were either adjunct teaching to pay the bills (think about that for a minute, if you know anything about adjuncting), or else they were using family money to basically run a pro-bono practice.

    27. Another Lawyer*

      I’ll add a slightly different perspective. I’m a lawyer with huge student loan debt, and while it’s certainly informed my choices, I do not find it crushing or life-altering. I’m 7 years out from law school and I love my career. If I didn’t have any law school debt, I’d probably be doing the same job I am right now. However, I don’t think I would be in the place I’m at in my career without the debt, because that’s what made attending a top school (and the very top in my specific field) possible for me.

      I think the most important thing to do is research and be realistic. I knew what I was getting myself into, both debt and career-wise, and I don’t regret it for a second. I do fine financially (though I do not make hundreds of thousands of dollars!), I work a reasonable number of hours, and I love what I do. For me, attending a top school and taking on a lot of debt was worth it for the network/job opportunities, but that’s not going to be the right choice for everyone. For me, both the actual cost and the opportunity cost of law school was worth it, because I enjoy practicing law and I can’t imagine doing anything else. That’s not going to be true of everyone.

      I’d suggest your husband do his research and make sure he’s actually going to enjoy the day-to-day work of being a lawyer and that his post-graduation plan is realistic based on the schools he’s considering and the realities of his life and what he wants to do for a career.

    28. DataGirl*

      I had student loans for undergrad (age 18-22) and graduate school (age 30-32). I mention age because my parents paid off all my student loans from undergrad, which was a great gift. For grad school I was on the hook. 11 years later and I still owe as much as, if not slightly more than, I took out in loans. I had a few deferments and most of the time I could only make the minimum payment, if that ( I was working at a non-profit making terrible pay, and my husband was out of work for 3 years, so our financial situation was bleak). When you do that you are paying interest only- sometimes not even the full interest accrued that month- so your balance never goes down. I highly recommend making larger payments- as large as you can afford, to get the balance down. Personally I don’t think student loans are as evil as many people make them out to be- for me (and now for my college age children) they were/are the only option for higher education. But they definitely should not be taken lightly as they are a huge expense that stick around for a long time.

      1. sunshyne84*

        Agreed, continuously deferring especially after you’ve paid on your loans will have you right back where you started. Definitely as much as you can afford towards them even while in school. I never went to law school, but I have paid off a loan and am paying them now while in school again.

    29. MCL*

      I’m not a lawyer, but spouse and I are in mid-late thirties and still paying off student loans. It was worth it for me because my loans aren’t huge (I took out about 20K for grad school, fingers crossed PSLF wipes out my remaining in a couple of years). My spouse took out over 50K for undergrad and is still paying that off. It’s a huge financial burden and it is definitely affecting things in our lives (it was a non-zero factor in delaying having children). Think about the earning potential he has after he has his degree, and how that’s going to play with paying back over 100K long-term. What is your earning potential, and how will that impact things? Are you planning on having kids ($$$), buying a house ($$$), saving a lot for retirement ($$$) or any other long-term financial plans? Student loan debt is going to really impact those plans. Are there cheaper options for him, such as going to a state school with in-state tuition? I think people sometimes get really caught up in the prestige of grad school programs and turn up their noses at perfectly good and more budget-friendly options (I can’t tell if that’s happening here, but if it is please really, really the cost/benefit). I don’t mean to scare you, but I would also be super wary of taking on that kind of debt.

    30. Gatomon*

      That’s quite a bit in loans, but I will let someone in that field offer advice, since it is rather unique. I will say that in my experience, student loans can balloon quickly if you aren’t able to keep on top of them. Take as little as possible, keep up on the interest if it is accruing while he’s in school, and try to get into the field ASAP to start paying back.

      I took out $21,000 in my name for my first degree in journalism. It was not the right choice for me, but I was too young to push back. I graduated in 2011 and didn’t find full time work until 2012, and couldn’t ever afford standard repayment until I went back to school and switched careers. So 8 years of no payments or interest-only payments haven’t been effective at chipping away at the balance, haha. At one point I consolidated mine hoping for PSLF and the new balance was $26,000, though I’m glad I’m not still hoping for that to work out. I’ve managed to avoid capitalizing more interest while on in school deferment, which is the only reason I’m not drowning under these loans. I’ve paid about $18,000 towards principle and interest and owe $16,000 in principle now. I’m pissed. I didn’t take out a crazy amount of loans, but I was still crushed by the 6%+ interest rate and inability to find a job that paid more than $30,000. Living at home to save money was not an option after graduation.

      Went back to school in 2015, took out $18,000, almost all subsidized. Paid last year in cash because I moved into tech in my second year and have done well with promotions since. The interest rates are half the old ones, so these are $190/month. I’d say this was worth it but I am spending most of my high wages paying off my loans now. Basically everything went right for me with this gamble, but honestly had it not, I wouldn’t have been any more screwed than I already was.

    31. Wild Blue Yonder*

      I had $40k undergraduate loans that I paid on right away after college and finished paying while on active duty. I earned my master’s with my GI Bill. My husband had no loans/debt as he was enlisted and earned his degree with tuition assistance and then ROTC, and then the Army paid for his Masters.

      Go Officer Corps, go to school and then transition into the JAG Corps. (the plan isn’t that easy of course). While it’s not traditional and it’s not for everyone (why people overlook it is surprising), and it’s not easy, it’s definitely satisfying to not be in debt and earn a great living.

      – Army Funded Legal Education Program (FLEP) https://www.goarmy.com/jag/funded-legal-education-program.html
      – Navy JAG https://www.jag.navy.mil/careers_/careers/opportunities_sp.html
      – Marine Corps JAG https://www.marines.com/becoming-a-marine/officer/marine-corps-law-program.html
      – Air Force JAG https://www.airforce.com/careers/specialty-careers/jag/overview

    32. Mama Bear*

      I did for undergrad. I was “lucky” and only had about $15K in total loans (from both Dept. of Ed and the school itself). I paid it off in less than 10 years, including the 6 months I asked for reduced payments on one loan so I didn’t default when looking for a new job. Sometimes the salary you get isn’t the one you were expecting.

      One thing to consider is how much will the salary increase over time? Some fairly high paying jobs start out fairly high and then stagnate for a long time unless you own your own business/office. The high loan estimate seems like you have no money to contribute to the tuition and maybe the place to start is trying to find out what scholarships, etc. he could qualify for before taking out basically a mortgage. What options has he considered?

      I agree to only take the amount you need and try not to use it for living expenses. That’s one way to make it add up more quickly – and you’ll just end up paying interest on it later.

    33. Memyselfandi*

      I will give you the same advice I gave my nephew when he was deciding whether or not to pursue a PhD, which was that if he absolutely could not live without pursuing further study on the topic which interested him and had no concern about the return on the investment, then he should go for it. However, if he saw this as a career, then someone should pay him to go to school. He had the passion implied in the first, but the second consideration changed his mindset about how to go about it. He asked for funding and got a teaching assistantship, instead of assuming he would have to pay to achieve his dream. I don’t think law school has graduate teaching and research assistantships, but the philosophy is the same. You need to look at the return on investment if the amount of passion you have for the work does not balance the financial burden you will take on. I run a loan repayment program for a wide variety of health professionals at various levels of pay. Not only is the debt load astounding, but the morass of loan servicing agencies and their complicated and shady policies is appalling. They don’t really ever want you to get out of debt because that is where they make their profit.

      1. Clisby*

        When my daughter was applying to MA/PhD programs in computer science, we (both computer programmers) told her, “If they won’t pay you to come, they don’t really want you.” This probably isn’t true in a lot of other disciplines, but in tech fields like CS and engineering, it absolutely is. If that school wants you to come for a post-grad degree, they’ll waive tuition and give you some sort of paid fellowship/assistantship.

        1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

          Ha! We say the same thing in my field. I had an old boss complain about her student loans from getting her PhD and I blurted out, “Who pays for their PhD?!?!? If you have to pay, you aren’t cut out for it.”

    34. blackcat*

      My dad is in BigLaw.
      He tells people not to go to law school unless they…
      1) want to go into BigLaw (and are sure!) and get into a law school that makes that easy
      2) have a good public law school option and will have <30k in debt
      3) want to do public interest law and are sure about their loan forgiveness program (ex: a friend who went to a top law school has loan forgiveness *through her school* she trusts her law school more than the government for forgiving the debt)

      Do not go into vast quantities of debt for a "maybe I'll like being a lawyer and here is an middling, local law school that will accept me" situation.

      Why law? Ask that question really, really carefully. Work in a law firm. Talk to lots of lawyers. I come from a long, long line of lawyers and judges (like civil war era). I know what being a lawyer is like, and how that has changed over time.

      I am not a lawyer. And, notably, because my dad does corporate litigation, *I* have zero student loan debt. I expect the same for my child (because my dad will pay). This is a tremendous gift, and it was very much an aim for my dad to provide financial freedom to his children. A law career doesn't guarantee that, though! And the things I'm doing in my early 30s (have a house, kid, etc) would not be possible with a massive loan debt.

      2. blackcat*

        Oh, and my dad has a #4 that I forgot
        4) Undergrad degree is in something technical (particularly computer science), you want to do IP law, and get into a school that is good for IP law.
        IP/patent law is easier to make it in if you have the STEM chops and background for it.

      3. Marissa*

        Soooo true. I went option 2, and lots of law schools give scholarships (or at least that was my experience 10 years ago), so if you do well on the LSAT you may not need loans at all for a good public school. I went to a fantastic state school, and the truth is if you don’t want to go into BigLaw (totally not for me), the good state school in the state where you want to practice will have connections and alumni in that state in the places you will likely be looking for work. If it’s the route you and your husband decide to take, my advice to him is to take the LSAT seriously and really study for it to do well, and hopefully it’ll put him into a position for scholarships so that $100K debt is avoided altogether.

        1. blackcat*

          “if you don’t want to go into BigLaw (totally not for me), the good state school in the state where you want to practice will have connections and alumni in that state in the places you will likely be looking for work.”
          ^This is particularly true for things like real estate law or family law. Fancy law schools won’t prepare you well for those jobs, won’t give you the right connections, and will (generally) give you a mountain of debt. For many people, those are enjoyable, rewarding careers. A bit of debt for them makes sense. But not mountains!

      4. Guacamole Bob*

        I was coming here to basically say this. It’s not a blanket “law school is great and you should do it” or “never ever take on debt for law school” situation. The details matter.

        I’d modify #1 to say “If you’re happy to work in BigLaw for a while and get into a law school that makes that easy.” If you’re a great student and get into top schools and can clerk for a year or two afterwards, the clerkship bonuses will really help put a dent in the debt, too. You don’t have to commit to a partner track and decades of 80-hour weeks, necessarily – a ton of people do it for a few years and then move on.

        My spouse took that route – top school, federal district and appellate clerkships, 4 years in BigLaw, and now she’s at a non-BigLaw job that she loves. I worked through her time in law school so she took out less in loans than if she’d had to cover all her own living expenses, but it was still a ton of money, which we paid off fairly easily well before she left BigLaw.

        My aunt did a combination of 2 and the #4 below – I don’t know how much debt she took on when she left the sciences to go to law school mid-career to do IP decades ago, but it was a state school and it all worked out pretty well for her.

        But there are a lot of really crappy attorney jobs out there – contract doc review can be pretty painful and doesn’t pay well, for example. Even with public interest jobs where you might get the loans forgiven, take a serious look at how easily the graduates of a particular school are able to find interesting work that pays enough to live on. I have a lot of friends and acquaintances who still have a ton of debt and don’t have great job options and it’s really limiting. Even if they wanted to do BigLaw, it’s not like everyone can get those jobs, and for many people the timing works out so that they’re coming out of law school and the need to work a ton of hours at a job that can pay off the loans coincides with life stuff like getting married and having kids and dealing with aging parents, and making it all work can be really, really hard.

        The advice to avoid taking on huge debt for a middling school without a clear plan is really solid, and is the #1 thing I hope the OP takes away from this thread.

        One option that I’ve seen suggested is to look at formal training to become a paralegal. There’s less potential to make a whole ton of money, but there are solid, interesting jobs in the law that don’t require six figures of debt.

        1. blackcat*

          “I’d modify #1 to say “If you’re happy to work in BigLaw for a while and get into a law school that makes that easy.” If you’re a great student and get into top schools and can clerk for a year or two afterwards, the clerkship bonuses will really help put a dent in the debt, too. You don’t have to commit to a partner track and decades of 80-hour weeks, necessarily – a ton of people do it for a few years and then move on.”

          True! A friend of mine did this. Fancy law school + 4 years of BigLaw + living with her parents paid of ~150k of debt. She is now in-house counsel for a media corp doing arts IP and LOVES IT. She makes less but enough, works regular hours, and is generally quite happy. But I also think this is a better plan if you are younger. She was only 23 as a law school grad, so the idea of spending ages 23-27 working 80 hour weeks seemed doable. She’s now a 32 year old mom, and would definitely not make the same deal now.

          1. Guacamole Bob*

            Yeah, we had a couple of rough years in the BigLaw stint because we had kids in the middle of that. On the one hand, 4 months of fully paid maternity leave! On the other, once you you’re back to work the hours + young kids thing is brutal, though the firm did offer the option to drop down to 80% hours for 80% salary. We were only doing that for a fairly short time, but I do not remember that time fondly.

            (The exact sequencing of how we lived our 20’s and 30’s in terms of moving cities, grad school for both of us, having kids, etc. isn’t exactly what we might choose if we could map it all out perfectly in retrospect, but we lived through it and we’re both happy in our careers with a couple of great kiddos now.)

            Very few of the colleagues my wife became friends with at the firm are still there. They’ve largely gone in house, to the government, or to other less intense options. The firms hire way more associates than make partner each year, so the system is set up to churn through young attorneys. If you go in eyes open it can be a reasonable option.

      5. Tema*

        Agree with this completely. I took on enormous debt for law school (16ok), but went to a top tier school that offered public interest loan repayment. I got into other schools that would have ended in less debt, but because I knew I wanted to do public interest law, it was cheaper for me to go to the more expensive school since that school paid my debt off. I love my job, and it was worth it for me.

        Do a deep dive on calculating what any debt means. Figure out what your monthly payments would be for a 10 year pay off, 30 year payoff and income based repayment. If your husband wants to do public interest law, look st the repayment programs. Figure out what his income would be at the job he wants, and compare that to debt payments and other expenses. It’s possible to made an educated gamble on student debt, and that’s what you need to do.

    35. Art3mis*

      For me it was not worth it. I have no experience other than low level support roles and everything wants a degree and specific experience. I went back in my 30s to finish my BS, I already had an associates. Seven years after finishing the degree I can’t find a job making more than $15/hour, which is about what I made when I started going back to school and now I have a $500/month student loan payment, so a negative income effect. I wouldn’t be able to make the payments if my husband, who has no 4 year degree, didn’t make twice what I make. I tried to do internships but none I could find were paid and at the time husband made less so taking an unpaid one wasn’t an option. Refinancing isn’t an option because I don’t make enough and I don’t want his name on the loans so he’s not stuck with my massive mistake should something happen to me. I know finishing your degree is largely seen as a good thing and it works out for a lot of people but for me it was the number one worst mistake of my life and I wish I had never done it.

    36. Nacho*

      I took out 25k and it was not worth it at all. Ended up with an entry level job that didn’t even need a college education.

    37. Agnodike*

      I think there’s a distinction to be made between graduate school and professional education. I got through my undergrad (graduated 2009) on a combination of scholarships and working, but I took a loan to pay for my professional education (graduated 2014). The loan was $65k and it was paid back 20 months after I got my license and started working. But I’m in a profession that pretty much guarantees a job making ~$90k/year upon graduation and I had an employed spouse and no dependants. If your spouse wants to go to law school so he can get a guaranteed job at his dad’s firm making $150k/year, that’s probably not an unreasonable investment. If he’s contemplating entering an uncertain job market carrying six figures of debt, that’s a whole different calculus.

    38. Lindsay Gee*

      I’m in Canada so I know our systems are very different, but in my experience getting a student line of credit with a co-signer at a bank had a much lower interest rate than the government run student loan agency- like the government interest rate was double. So if you have a parent or someone who is comfortable financially, you’ll pay less in the long term. Also, definitely look at salary in his projected career after school and scholarships from everywhere and anywhere. My debt was significantly reduced because I had an entrance scholarship that i held up every year with my grades, and it cut my tuition in half. I didn’t appreciate at the time how significant that was, but it made a huge difference in my final debt load.
      Don’t do grad school for the sake of grad school either. I know lots of people who didn’t use their degree, or didn’t finish, or ended up doing more school after because they didn’t enjoy their original field. Since you’re in your 30s and have other life stuff you want to make sure you manage, i would balance the pros of cons. I think education for educations sake is great, but only if you can afford the debt load after.

    39. LawyerWrangler*

      I took out loans for a Master’s Degree- 10 years later, I’ve barely made a dent and am in an unrelated field and haven’t used the degree at all. If I could do it over again, I’d pass.

      My husband and I can afford the monthly payments but I daydream about how much we’d have in savings if they were going to that instead. At this rate it’ll be paid off when I’m in my 60s.

      I’m not a lawyer but work with them and almost all would tell people NOT to go to law school, or at least right now.

    40. Polaris*

      It reeeeeeeeally depends on what the degree is and how you expect it to improve your job opportunities. My graduate degree is pretty much entirely worthless, and I took out about $60k in loans to afford it. It’s in a very specific field (Archives), and despite years of searching I was never able to translate that to a job in archives.

      My undergrad was about half grants/half student loans, most of which were under my parents’ name. I have about $20k debt from that, but I absolutely loved undergrad and learned a lot (both factually and in terms of life skills and ways of thinking).

      1. Random Concerned Citizen*

        @Polaris: I also took out loans for an archives degree. Went for the degree because I didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life, and it was 2009 and jobs were hard to find. I regret going to grad school and taking out the loans. I loved school, the subject was fascinating, but had no long-term value and I didn’t have the passion necessary to succeed in the field. Now, I have $47k+ in student loan debt, no desire (or ability) to enter the archives field, and a job in a call center. I tried to purchase a small condo, but cannot because of my debt to income ratio (I am single with no dual-income prospects anytime soon). I think I’ll be renting for the rest of my life, and have almost nothing saved for retirement.
        Think really, really hard before taking on student loan debts. Do not use grad school to escape from lack of work, dead-end career or anything else. Grad school seemed like the answer for me at the time, but that was only true for the short term. It did not solve the problems I went to school to escape.

    41. little orange teapot*

      I haven’t read through all the comments yet, so this may have been covered, but: before he takes out big loan $$ for education, run the numbers on what he contributes to your family living expenses and what you contribute. Attempt to get in writing that should you break up, he needs to pay you back $X amount, so that you don’t end up in a worse position financially should you break up.

    42. Canadian Attorney*

      I’m in law. Very little debt, fortunately, in part because I picked a cheaper but still good school and decided to stay in Canada rather than doing law school in the US as I had initially planned, because debt.
      A few thoughts:
      – Discuss career prospects with your husband. People tend to assume lawyers will make a ton of dough, which is true for some people, but definitely not all lawyers. Is he going to do corporate law at a big firm? Or does he plan on doing public interest work, go into government, or start his own litigation practice? This drastically impacts future income. Note that if he plans on going the biglaw route, he will need to (1) attend a good law school, (2) work hard and get good grades, and (3) put in insane hours in a stressful environment after that to get paid those $$$.
      – Another question is – does he actually love the law? Or does he want to boost another career? If so, consider possible alternatives that might be cheaper.
      – Are loans the only option? Did he get offered financial aid anywhere? Depending on the type of career he wants it might be worth it to go to a cheaper/less prestigious school.
      – Depending on marital laws where you are, does this debt become yours? What if, heaven forbid, things don’t work out between you? What are your plans for a starting a family, home purchase, or other applicable future plans and how does it impact that? I know this is a depressing conversation to have but I think honesty is the best policy for this.
      I know people who reimbursed their debt easily and other who struggle with it. I think the basic rule is take out as little as possible and make sure your career plan adresses debt reimbursement.

    43. Unladen European Swallow*

      I had undergraduate debt (from 1999-2004) and graduate debt (2013-2014). I was flaky about paying my undergraduate debt immediately after graduation and it affected my credit. When I got around to being an adult and actually paying attention to my undergrad school loans, I was working in the field I’m in now and worked with the loan servicers to get back on track. I knew that I would need a master’s degree to advance in my field so I waited a few years to save up money, have my undergrad loans paid down more, and get a clear idea of what a realistic post-grad degree salary would be. I took out $26k for my grad degree, saving money by choosing a program that was local so I could live at home and wouldn’t have to move. I was living with my boyfriend at the time (now husband) and we made the commitment to be fiscally responsible (no eating out, no new purchases beyond food and household goods, etc.) for the duration of my grad program. Additionally, I started making payments to my graduate loans while I was STILL IN SCHOOL so that the principal was smaller once I graduated. I have no regrets on my education debt. We paid off all of my loans (undergrad + grad) 3 years ago. My income is now 78% more than what I was making when I went to grad school, so the degree has paid for itself and more. I will echo a lot of the advice and say that your husband needs a very clear idea of why he’s going to law school, what he will do afterwards, and understand the likelihood of obtaining a job with a salary so that the loan can be paid off comfortably. Graduate school should be a clear step towards a specific goal, not something to do “to figure out” what you like or what you want to do.

    44. Sue*

      I am an attorney and work in the courts. I see so many new attorneys come and go and am surprised by how many seem unsuited to the profession.
      My best advice is to have your husband work at a law firm for at least a year, see what it entails and decide if he really wants to be a lawyer. Family member who did this found a full half of the prospective students chose not to go after working at the firm. Law is very different from what is portrayed on screen and requires a high degree of diligence, attention to detail, clear logical thinking, self confidence and good writing, speaking and people skills (some specialties may not require much client interaction or courtroom work).
      Unfortunately, many of the new attorneys I see lack some or many of these skills and I wonder what made them think it was a good choice. Lots of turnover after they realize it was a mistake.
      If he is a good student, sure of his desire for the law and has a plan for employment, it may be fine to take on some debt if you are working to support the two of you. But $100,000 for 3 years may be a low estimate, many schools are now $50,000+ per year just for tuition (some are $65,000+). A young attorney recently told me that she and spouse each had $250,000 in student loans. That may have included undergrad as well but that’s obviously a very tough way to start out. Good luck.

    45. Temporarily anon*

      I agree with those who said that your husband should develop a concrete career goal before considering grad school and selecting a degree to pursue. Does he really, really want to be a lawyer, or is he thinking of it as a versatile degree?

      I pursued a masters in a specific professional field because that was my career goal, and did so in my late 40s. That was worth every penny, but I was also careful about choosing where those pennies were spent. My degree is from a well-regarded state university and my federal student loans totaled about $13,000. My monthly payment is now less than $150 and the knowledge/skills gained is currently worth over $6,600 a month before taxes. It was a good deal.

      Graduate school can be a great investment IF you choose your goal and school wisely. Just going to law school because it seemed like a vaguely good idea is risky as hell.

    46. I never should have gone to college.*

      You should be freaking out. I have $80,000 of student loan debt I will never pay off. Every year the amount goes up because even though I am making payments, they aren’t even enough to cover the interest.

      I’m in my mid-40s, lost my corporate job I was at for 10 years to downsizing, and now work a full time job not at all related to what I want to do and that barely pays the bills and a part time job so I can eat. If I could go back, I never would have gone to college.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Same. I’m a writer – I could have taken online writing workshops and been just fine.

    47. Coverage Associate*

      I took about $60,000 for law school at a top 10 school. Graduated in 2008. Earned less than $55,000/year for the first 5 years, living and working in the San Francisco Bay Area. Paid loans all through that. After 5 years, I got a new job making twice as much. Still not as much as my friends who went straight to Big Law made straight out of law school. That job only lasted a year, and I went into deferral for 6 months. Got my current job and paid off my loans more or less on time.

      Honestly, the loans were never a huge deal to me. They were my second biggest bill after rent, but just another fixed expense. Except unlike rent, they could be deferred in the event of layoffs.

    48. La Framboise*

      My family’s store is very similar to other comments. Let be talk about a couple things:
      1. Finances and not being in debt. My husband changed careers in his mid 40s, and decided he would do well in law school–which he did. He also went to a school that gave 1/2 off his tuition if he achieved a certain score on his LSATs, which he did achieve. That helped. We (double income, 3 kids, 1 currently in undergrad) paid by selling stock we had, and also we did not have a mortgage, which meant we did not have that debt hanging over our heads. I thinks our situation is unique in that we had savings, in terms of the stock, and so we did not take out any loans. That means, however, that we don’t have that equivalent money in retirement savings, and although we save a lot between the two of us, we are also thinking about making sure that our children don’t have college debt, so in some regards our money is tied up in retirement savings and childrens’ undergrad (and probably grad school) education for the next 15 years.
      2. Practicing law. I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t know the finer points of practice, and I will tell you as a spouse, law practice is hard, constant, and possibly not as remunerative as anyone thinks (although I will also tell you, as a 50 year old, every job is mundane, and if you stick with something, you tend to accumulate more money–stick with the career, not necessarily the same job). My husband easily works 80 hours a week, he’s tired, and there is, continually, about 80 hours of work on his desk going forward on any given day. Hurray for consistency, I guess. It does make it a slog. Burnout is real, all the lawyers discuss it on the DL. He should shadow someone, or look at blogs, and ask around to find out how people feel.
      3. He made far more money as a pharmacist, but he’d topped out, and was bored with the profession. He is, however, doing much better as a first-year lawyer because of his skill set, and so is making more than other newly minted lawyers. Can your spouse combine careers so that it is more niche/specialized, and desired? That might be worth it.
      4. Please listen to all the above about finding a way to NOT pay full tuition, it will be worth your peace of mind, regardless.
      Best of luck to you. Being a law school, and lawyer, spouse, is hard work. I am solo parenting a lot of the time, while holding down my own full time job that requires a lot of my emotional attention, and trying to get enough sleep. Make sure you go into it whatever it is, with your eyes and ears and psyches attuned to what people are not saying, know what I mean?

    49. Goose on the loose*

      My husband and I are both lawyers, and both graduated with debt. My parents paid for two of the three years and then loaned me the money for the third year while my husband took out federal loans for all three years. I had $60,000 (I also borrowed some money for living expenses between law school and starting my first job) and he had about $150,000. We went to a top 10 law school and both got 6-figure jobs out of school. It took us 6.5 years to pay off our debt. We made some sacrifices to do it that quickly (renting, no car, strict budgeting for vacations), but we were able to live a full life, contribute to retirement and savings, and save enough for a down payment on a condo.

      We both love being lawyers, and both have made 6-figure salaries since graduation. This is not a typical story, but it can work IF your husband is committed to the graduate school, the graduate school is ranked highly enough for good job prospects upon graduation, and the salary is high enough to justify the debt. We’ve worked our butts off at big law firms for years to afford this – 80+ hour weeks, ruined vacations, you name it. But I’ve since moved in-house and my husband will likely make partner this year, and we both very much like our jobs. So definitely worth it.

    50. Bananatiel*

      Personal finance is personal! Sounds obvious but… definitely make sure you both are thinking about the lifestyle you want to have once he’s done with school. I hear about a lot of people that make good money after taking out huge amounts of debt and they live on absolutely nothing to get it paid off quickly and move on with their lives. Is that something you’d both be willing to undertake? Or are you both okay with a repayment plan of 10, 20, even 30 years to live a nice lifestyle but sacrifice things like vacations, a house, savings for possible future children’s educations, etc?

      Of the people I know living with $100k+ in student debt– they are all making BIG sacrifices one way or another for their debt. You just have to be okay with it going in. Very few people have their cake and eat it too in these scenarios.

      1. Baru Cormorant*

        I’ve noticed this as well. My partner and I are fortunate enough to have no debt and it’s the biggest difference in lifestyle choices between us and our friends.

    51. MoopySwarpet*

      In retrospect, I would have chosen an entirely different college path to avoid loans . . . or to have reduced them.

      I’ve also heard from a handful of lawyers that they wish they’d never chosen that path at all. Since you say “most likely law,” I would advise that he is more than 100% sold and excited about whatever degree he chooses at a minimum.

      I agree with the others encouraging you to find another way, if possible. If you can scrimp and save and struggle for 3 years vs scrimp and save and struggle for the next 20-30, that would be a lot closer light in a much shorter tunnel. Paying off $100k in loans is a long, expensive, relentless process.

    52. Staja*

      If you can find other ways of paying for school, I highly recommend. I’m paying off (a small amount in comparison) of student loan debt – down to 18k, but no degree to show for it. My husband’s BA was paid for years ago, between his parents, and years of him living at home. His MS, that he hasn’t used yet, was paid for by by the Trade Act/Unemployment.

    53. Parenthetically*

      Please please EXHAUST your other options before taking out a small mortgage. It took me more than ten years to pay off less than $10k. My husband has twice that and he’s still going 15 years later.

    54. designbot*

      I took out about 60k in student loans, combined grad and undergrad, and it was just a bit over my comfort level. I would recommend tying the amount you’re willing to take out with realistic expecting starting salary—I made 50k/year coming out of school, and my loan payments felt like they were just over a reasonable amount.

    55. EH*

      I took out about $40k for undergrad and another $40k for my MA. It was worth it in most ways, but I didn’t know how to budget around my huge loan payments after graduation and made ends meet with my credit cards instead of looking for higher-paying work or budgeting every last penny. NOT SMART. I paid off my loans but still am working on the credit cards.

      Student loans are “good debt” when banks/lenders look at you, so you don’t need to worry too much about net worth. Just make sure you’ll be able to cover the monthly payments when he graduates, and if that means budgeting super tightly, do it. Going into debt to pay off debt is Not A Good Idea. Learn from my mistakes!

    56. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I don’t know about law, but I took out loans so that I could do my PhD. I will never, ever come close to paying them off. I did not really do my homework beforehand and I didn’t realize just how abysmal the pay and job situation actually is.

      Actually, I probably would have done it anyway, given my mental state at the time I applied. And I also had a much rosier view of my own abilities plus the likelihood of getting an academic job until it was too late (and the 2008 crash and subsequent austerity in the UK gutted the heritage industry). On the bright side my loans are in income-based repayment and as long as that survives the balance will be written off after 20 years of payments, so I’m not in default. But it is a bit depressing.

    57. ellie-anon*

      I went from graduating undergrad straight into law school. I had taken loans for undergrad (all federal) that then got combined with my law school loans (also federal). I went to a decently ranked law school in the city I knew I wanted to end up working in. I had a scholarship that allowed me to go for the first year of law school tuition free and then at a significant discount the two following years. I was lucky enough that I could live with my parents to diminish my living expenses.

      When I got out of school in 2014, between undergrad and law school, I was about $65k in debt. I had a law clerk job at a small firm that I worked my last year of law school and after I graduated. After I passed the bar, I was super lucky that they hired me as an attorney. I’m still there. I love my job. I don’t get paid a lot. My employer does not offer a health insurance plan; I have to pay for it myself. I paid off all of my loans last year. I’m still living with my parents as I work to save up enough money for a downpayment on a house/condo.

      If I had to make the decision again, I don’t think I would have decided to go to law school unless I was 100% sure of my employment afterward. The legal job market is just too tough.

    58. 1qtkat*

      I’m a lawyer (2016 grad) and job outlook really depends on the school and location. You’re more likely to get a decent job in the state where the school is located because that’s where the connections are. So really choose a school in a state you plan to live. However if you go live in a state different from where he earns his JD after he graduates, it’s going to be much harder to find a job because he has to make new connections in the new state. The legal field is really dependant on connections and local. Of course if he goes to a top tier school like Harvard then the options are infinite.

    59. Anon with no name*

      Student loans are never worth it. Going to college using student loans is just a waste of money in the end.

      1. TL -*

        I had $25k after my undergrad – about the price of a slightly modest new or good used car. I paid 15k off in six years without many problems – I wasn’t making a whole lot but I budgeted and was genuinely happy with my pretty modest lifestyle.

        My grandma paid off the last 10k so I could go to grad school overseas. I now have 55k + some credit card debt (worth it but top financial priority is to pay them off fast) and I’ll be living pretty modestly for a while but I’ve so far been pretty happy with what my loans have gotten me.

        That’s not true for all my friends – some of them have been pretty miserable on a modest lifestyle so have spent their budget elsewhere and pay back their loans slower, some have moved back home to save, some thought any amount of debt was too much. It’s more about what you want from life than a one size fits all answer.

        1. TL -*

          Oh, I should add my parents bought me a brand new $12k car for high school graduation. I’m still driving it, 12 years and 145k miles later. It has nothing fancy except electric locks, windows, and a spot for an aux cord, but it runs great and the keys are $7 to replace.

          I’d rather have my student loans than a new car and I’m genuinely happy with that decision. Hail the mighty Yaris, may it putter on another 100k!

    60. Gaia*

      I took out $50k, currently owe $90k (thanks interest rates while I was making too little to pay!)

      Was it worth $90k for an undergrad degree? No. Was it worth $50k for an undergrad degree? No. Was it worth it so I can check a box that says I have a degree? I mean….I guess considering the alternative. But if I could go back, I’d make very different choices.

    61. emmelemm*

      As someone whose partner is 50 and still has a mountain of law school debt, I’d say consider really carefully what type of law he intends to practice and what his realistic outlook of getting a job on the other side is. My partner has had periods of unemployment – law jobs are just not that plentiful these days.

    62. Non-Practicing JD*

      Non-practicing JD here, with a practicing attorney partner. If he isn’t completely sure he wants to be an attorney he shouldn’t go to law school unless he can go for free. We have a ridiculous amount of loans combined. Partner’s loans will be forgiven in a few years because he’s a public defender. I’m just on the 25 year-forgiveness track. I really think going to law school and becoming an attorney is only something you should do if you REALLY want it – it costs too much money to get a job you won’t end up even enjoying.

    63. Not So NewReader*

      I know my friend, who is a lawyer would advise against going to law school. She said you can have law or you can have a life but not both. In the end, she said it plays out that you don’t read, you skim. And you hope against all hope that you retain something/anything. There are days where you get lucky, you actually remember “reading something” about this or that, and you wonder why you were able to remember.

      Not all the time/ But some situations at work can be very cut throat. Lawyers can really dig into each other and it can get NASTY. Sometimes it can be hard not to get caught up in the nastiness./ Again, not all the time, not everyone.

      Finally, there still remains a lot of sexism in law. You husband will have one more thing to be on the watch for avoiding.

    64. Luisa*

      I’m in a completely different field (K-12 education) but for what it’s worth, here’s my story.

      Took out $20k in loans for graduate school to cover living expenses, books and supplies, etc. (I had a full tuition waiver.) Worked as a tutor 5-10 hours per week during the year I was in school. First job out of school paid $28k, made minimum loan payments. (I felt it was too much of a hassle to do IBR or other repayment options.) Stayed at that job a year, my position got eliminated in budget cuts; got a new job where I started at $65k and am now up to just below $90k 5 years later. When I got my new (current) job, I started paying down my loans more aggressively. My Stafford will be paid off at the end of this year, and my Perkins will be paid off next summer.

      I don’t regret taking out loans, but if I hadn’t been lucky enough to get hired in my current district (which is one of the best-paying school districts in the US), I would be sweating my loans a little more. If that had been the case I’d probably have looked into other repayment options.

    65. Gumby*

      Undergrad: Took out ~$20k (mostly federal subsidized loans). Paid off in 4 years after graduating via:
      * Shoving every single extra cent I could towards it
      * Shared living situations to save on rent
      * Not having a car at all for 6-months (biking using bike from college) and an inexpensive used car afterwards
      * Having a job that didn’t pay spectacularly but also was completely cool with me wearing jeans and t-shirts (so no new wardrobe expenses)
      * Keeping to free or very inexpensive social events (no eating out, no movies, no going out for drinks – mostly amused myself via the library, hiking, and the occasional $2 – 8 social dance, but also so much sleep debt to pay off… so much)

      Watch out for lifestyle inflation. I kept living essentially like a poor college student. Being debt free felt better to me than 4 years of new clothes or restaurant meals ever could have. But that was me. And I was already used to that since it’s basically how I grew up.

    66. PassionSmashion*

      I went to college at age 40 because not having a good job meant not having the means to raise my family if something should happen to my husband or our marriage, and that was keeping me up at night. At first, I went slowly but then the economy started to tank and I was afraid I would lose my job and I realized I had to pick up speed. It still took me about nine years.

      Major: Accounting (If I had been young and not so focused on worst-case-scenario I would definitely have been a Liberal Arts major because that’s where my heart is.)
      Community college: first 2 years of school-took me 5 years.
      Local state university: next 2 years of school-took me 4 years.
      Total loans: about $25,000. Most of it was tuition, but we had to use about $5,000 for living expenses at the height of the recession when we both had to take 25% pay cuts.
      Loan Payment: 350.00/month
      Payment Plan: standard 10 years
      Worth it? Yes.

      I figured if I could increase my salary by at least the loan payment then it would be okay and I could get a better job if necessary in the future. The degree has allowed me to increase my salary by about $3,000 a month(at first it was only $1600/month.) I know that’s not a ton of money, and I work a lot of hours, but it was worth it for peace of mind alone.

      We paid for the community college classes as they came up, but couldn’t keep up with the costs of the university. The only loans I took out were government subsidized and unsubsidized loans, no private loans.
      p.s. we are still married and the kids are grown.

    67. Marny*

      I’ve been a lawyer for 18 years and was fortunate to graduate debt-free. If your husband doesn’t want to be a lawyer with every fiber of his being, don’t do it. Becoming a lawyer was all I wanted to be and I loved it for the first, maybe, 10 years. I’m now tired of it and looking to change careers, and I think most attorneys feel the same way at some point. I can only imagine how angry I’d be at myself if I was still paying off those damn loans at this point (which you absolutely might be).

    68. School Psych*

      I took out around 60K for my graduate degree and it was fine. I’ve since paid it off. I researched the average salary for my field and my school’s job placement rates before getting the loans though. Even though I didn’t have a hard time paying it off, I wish I’d done more to try to get into a funded program. I was really committed to staying in the geographical area where I lived and probably could have gotten into a funded program, if I’d been willing to relocate. The money I spent repaying my loans could have been used for lots of other things. I also have several lawyers in my family and it’s quite competitive now to find a law job. There’s no guarantee he’d be able to find a job right away after he graduates.

    69. Starving SRNA*

      You’ve gotten a lot of good advice relating to your husband’s field of interest but thought I’d give my $0.02 anyway.

      Graduated with my bachelor’s in nursing with not quite $30k in debt. I went to a pricey private school in a small, midwest town with low COL, but received a scholarship. And I say pricey, but it’s relative. It wasn’t “top 20 nursing schools pricey.”
      Moved out of the midwest immediately and got a job in Alaska at an Indian health service facility – complete with loan repayment. Didnt get a new car, used the old beater family car, didn’t take vacations, and the loans paid off within three years. I bought a home my second year out of school.
      Currently: five years out of school and just sold the house as im going back to grad school. Moving again, to a non ivy league, private school in a small town with low COL. It will be at least $120,000 in loans, but starting wage is around $170k. I plan on having them paid off within three years of graduation.

      Loans are the only way I would have ever been able to achieve my career goals, people that don’t believe in taking out loans are unrealistic for some degrees. The other side is you have to know your job market, and, I’d suggest, be willing to move.
      I would not take out loans like this if I wasnt confident in my choice, myself, and the ability to get a job even if we hit a recession. If worse comes to worse, we will literally move in with my parents for a year to get them paid. We do have contingency plans in case something terrible happens. Also, life insurance on both of us. If I die, there will be no question that my husband will be able to pay off the loans without me.

    70. CastIrony*

      My parents gave my sister money to pay off her loan for her masters while she paid what it didn’t cover with refunds and money she saved from her assistantship (sp?). It was a great sacrifice, but she is debt-free.

      I helped pay for school items.

  6. Goldfinch*

    My small department is shopping for an online learning subscription (Lynda, Udemy, Coursera, etc.). We need a catalog that’s media-centric, but most options seems to skew heavily towards coding while lacking in other subjects. Any recommendations for programs with strong coursework in photo and video editing, graphic design, web design, and so on?

    1. Nowhereland*

      FYI: Lynda is now called LinkedIn Learning. I don’t think it’s good for the purposes you listed.

      1. ExceptionToTheRule*

        I’ll push back on Lynda unless LinkedIn drastically changed it.

        Their Adobe & Microsoft courses were very thorough. I had to learn Sharepoint and their course enabled me to set-up an entire site and teach other people from the ground up. The Adobe stuff covered by graphic design through Photoshop & Illustrator as well as video editing through Premiere.

    3. ET*

      Skillshare.com, maybe? They seem more individual-focused and less enterprisey than LinkedIn Learning, etc., but they are focused on arts moreso than tech.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      My company just got LinkedIn Learning.
      But if you’re looking for more creative marketing skills, try MediaBistro or Hubspot Academy.

    6. 8DaysAWeek*

      We have Coursera but it is very heavy math and science/medical focused.
      I just checked it out and I don’t see anything for what you are looking for. They have art classes but it is more art history. They offer some computer science classes which include some programming languages. It is light though.

    7. DaniCalifornia*

      Why not Lynda.com/LinkedIn Learning? I am studying web/graphic design and some of our professors have used it. They have a ton of videos for the things listed, but I know from using it it’s not extensive. But it’s been helpful in aiding some of my classes.

      I also don’t know what your office situation is and why your department is looking to learn these skills, but in some cases (I say this with bias as a student) it might just be less stress or easier to hire someone/contract out the labor to someone who does all those things. But again, you know your work situation better than me. Good luck in finding something that works!

    8. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Are you looking to augment skills that people already have–like a continuing education program for professionals–or start from scratch beginners. For CE I think LinkedIn Learning (Lynda) is ok. I’ve got through some of their graphic design tutorials over the years and I usually pick up a few new bits of information but they’re not great for comprehensive learning of a whole new skill.

      1. Goldfinch*

        Definitely augmentation. We have people who spend a large part of their day doing using things like Photoshop/Premiere/Invision, and they want to “level up” their skills by increasing complexity and decreasing time expenditure.

        1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

          I’ve only used Lynda and not the other two you named, so I don’t have anything to compare on those. But for other design resource options I’ve found How Design (howdesignuniversity dot com) and the resources on through AIGA (aiga dot org slash professional-development) to be useful.

    9. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      You might luck out and get to check around yourself–some of those places have paid-for subscriptions with local libraries. Any one that has a library card can use them.

      Lynda does this near me, I’m assuming the others may do similar things elsewhere. Apologies if I’m wrong.

      1. Lalaith*

        Yes, I have access to Lynda/LinkedIn Learning through my library. Also, if you just want to check its suitability for your company, you can (or at least you could as of a year ago) get a free month of LinkedIn Premium, which gives you access to LinkedIn Learning. If you have anyone who’s willing to do that just to take it for a test drive :)

      3. Dja Dja Gabber*

        Libraries may soon be moving away from Lynda/LinkedIn Learning because LinkedIn is forcing library users to create a LinkedIn account (instead of just the Lynda account) and won’t allow libraries to protect patron information.

    10. Nora*

      Ask at your local library! They probably have experience with all kinds of programs like that, and you might be able to test drive them before committing.

    11. Grey Coder*

      My company has a Pluralsight subscription. They seem to have a lot under that general category but I can’t speak to the quality.

    12. CM*

      I haven’t used it in a few months, but I really like Lynda. I work as a designer, and that’s where I first learned InDesign. The beginner level courses give a really good tour of the software, which I find helpful, and they almost all have the option to follow along and do a sample project as you learn, which is (at least for me) a really good way to figure out where the controls are and start to build a mental picture of what the software’s capabilities are.

      For the more intermediate/advanced stuff, how helpful you find it will depend on what specific things you already know how to do or are interested in learning. But they cover a wide catalogue of software and also have courses on marketing principles, etc.

      Also, someone already said Skillshare, but I learned some good After Effects tricks from Skillshare. My experience with that site is that it’s more targeted to learning a really specific thing rather than getting an overview. So, one course I remember doing on Skillshare for After Effects was just about how to use the graph editor to give an animation more personality — it wasn’t a crash course in the whole program, the way Lynda.com courses often are.

    13. LunaLena*

      I am a graphic designer, and occasionally give others crash courses in Adobe programs. Those people have told me that the hour crash course I give them was more helpful than the hours they spent on Lynda. Not saying Lynda is useless, but it’s definitely not for everyone (I personally didn’t get much benefit from it when I was figuring out web design and development).

      If you are looking to learn to use Adobe products or further your knowledge of their functions, I highly recommend the Adobe Education Exchange. They have a ton of free workshops and live classes that are geared towards beginners who are looking for ways to learn Adobe programs through practical application. Each live class is 2 or 5 weeks, depending on the course, and includes how-to videos, examples of practical applications, up to three live classes with instructors and professionals where they demonstrate things and answer questions (the three classes cover the same materials each week, but are at different times for people living in different time zones, and every class is recorded and uploaded to the class site if you want to review it or missed it), and a “homework” assignment that is peer-reviewed. I’ve taken classes for Premiere Pro, After Effects, Dimensions, Animate, Character Animator, and Spark so far, and by the end of each class, was able to produce something that far exceeded anything I dreamt I could do. One class showed me that even Photoshop can now be used for basic video editing.

      The classes are meant to be for educators who want to create their own materials to use in the classroom, but anyone can join and learn. They have classes for a large variety of subjects, are pretty easy to follow, and are fairly flexible on timing. I took a class on Character Design not too long ago in which I did all five weeks’ worth of assignments a week before the class closed, and am currently signed up for 60-Second Documentaries and Design for Social Media. You even get an official Adobe certification after you complete a course.

      They also have workshops that are basically self-teaching courses for beginners, and are available any time. I seriously can’t recommend it enough.

  7. Perks!*

    A fun Friday thread: what is your favorite perk your company provides? I may be in a position soon to suggest some things to my bosses, so I’d love to crowdsource ideas. I’m more looking for things that work in standard offices than start up type things (we aren’t getting a foosball table) but feel free to share anything!

    Assume for the purposes of this we are paid market salaries and have pretty decent PTO/sick time for the states.

    1. Nowhereland*

      The biggest perks at our building is 1) free parking 2) filtered water. It’s a little strange how people are obsessed with the water cooler, but if people had to fill water from the sink, they’d riot!

      1. GigglyPuff*

        This is basically our only perk, the water cooler. For years it was in the basement next to the ice machine, okay, but kinda annoying especially when the elevators act up. But suddenly it was running out of water (reverse osmosis one that has a limited tank), and the service company was telling us not to fill up over 6oz, yeah right. Anyway it became a problem and they finally bought a machine for every floor, it’s amazing and so convenient, and has a hot water feature for when I want tea easily!

      2. T. Boone Pickens*

        I totally echo the water perk! A former employer of mine had this incredible reverse osmosis water system setup thingy and it was like drinking Fiji water. When the system needed to get repaired people would get super grumpy.

        1. Nowhereland*

          I don’t know how many people here have tried the tap water in this particular building. The previous office building had a water cooler, so I’m guessing it’s a preference holdover from there. And many staff used to work in another office building; not sure if they had water filters there. The old OLD building was big enough that perhaps it had water fountains.

          The funny thing is that the water cooler service is actually a prohibited purchase….it’s paid for by the Chair’s discretionary funds. It would be a prohibited service for general purchase (gov’t job)

        2. GigglyPuff*

          To me, yes, everywhere I’ve lived has had crappy tap water, all major cities. In my building too the water fountains suck, some of them have been updated, but the ones on my floor haven’t, and the coolers don’t work anymore. I can stand water fountains when it’s cold, but once it turns lukewarm it tastes gross. So if I’m drinking more than a few sips of water, I go for filtered.

        3. Wishing You Well*

          My city tap water is so bad the analyst thought it came from a well. It is surprisingly high in bacteria BUT it passes government “quality” tests just fine. Tap water is not safe for people with certain health problems. I drink filtered water and avoid tap water whenever possible.
          Good health, everyone.

      4. RobotWithHumanHair*

        Yep, water cooler, definitely. Considering I tend to drink at least 128oz a day, I take full advantage of that perk.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        Yes! I got my car over $5k less than the dealer price with no hassle. Just did the test drive, pulled the details up on my phone, showed the salesman and manager and they went “good deal!” and it was done. No fuss, no muss. Currently working on helping my MIL with a new car. Its been great.

      2. Kimmy Schmidt*

        Seconding this! We have all kinds of discounts ranging from the very small (office supplies, admission to state parks) to pretty big (mostly travel related).

      3. abcdefg*

        Oh cool. Do you work for a large corporation? I’ve always worked for small nonprofits or gov’t, so I haven’t encountered this.

    3. Purt's Peas*

      Summer hours (half-day Fridays) that essentially make it a 35-hour workweek. It is, in a word, fabulous.

      1. ThatGirl*

        See, we have summer hours but we have to make the time up. So it’s more like a shifted work week. I still like it but not as much as I’d like a 36-hour work week.

      2. londonedit*

        We have summer hours in July and August but we have to make up the time (so you work longer Monday-Thursday and then take Friday afternoon off). I’ve only done it a few times as it doesn’t really feel worthwhile to me unless I have something specific happening at the weekend, but I don’t mind the system itself (then again we have a standard UK 37.5-hour work week anyway!)

      4. TiffanyAching*

        We also have summer hours, but it’s a half-hour early release at the same pay. All the administrative offices close at 4:30 instead of 5, but our hourly employees are paid as if they worked until 5.

      5. Fortitude Jones*

        I had summer-ish hours year round when I worked for a major insurance company (we got to leave two hours earlier on Fridays than whatever our individual start time was) – I miss it so much.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        That’s the one we lost that I love.
        A former company had a very small gym with locker rooms — just a handful of treadmills & exercise bikes, and some lift&stretch equipment I didn’t use. We had to schedule our time in advance, and they let us flex our lunch breaks to use it conveniently. A lot of locals rode their bikes to the office and could store their exercise gear in lockers.

      2. KimberlyInOhio*

        Yep. My division gets to work from home 2 days a week. It is a boon! I spent some time in another division with higher stress levels and they lost their work-from-home days early this year. It’s been really rough on those folks.

    5. Data Maven*

      Our institution does half-day Friday’s during the summer. It’s kind of nice to be able to get some “free” PTO for those weeks (But does not solve people generally feeling over-worked and underpaid if that’s something your company provides).

    6. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      My employer reimburses me up to $100 per year for my gym membership and we also get discounted membership prices for the 2 big national chain gyms. We also have an exercise incentive program that is pretty much on the honor system. We submit a form that shows we spent a minimum of 30 minutes 3 times per week on the physical activity of our choice.

    7. austriak*

      I love my 9/80 schedule and “dress your day”. “Dress your day” is the policy that unless you have a reason to dress business casual or more professional, you can wear jeans.

      1. Tiny Magnolia*

        Does the company override you if they have a big-whig coming in from corporate / major client / etc? I dress my day (if I’m going to one of our factories, I dress appropriately for the venue) but we’re all expected to look “nice” on Board of Trustees day.

    8. EGA*

      A decent amount of flexibility with your schedule. We have official flex time, but most supervisors will let you flex beyond that from time-to-time. This is nice so that you don’t have to eat up vacation or sick time for something unnecessarily. Also being able to take sick and vacation time in small increments (as small at 30 mins at a time).

      Company contributes to employee HSA accounts to offset the cost of the deductible (about 70%).

      some flexible holidays

    9. Quill*

      Flexible schedule, work from home possibilities, free coffee.

      I’m overall so much more physically comfortable here than I was as a labtech…

    10. KR*

      Food! Our org definitely isn’t shy around doing meetings over lunch, getting delicious food catered, and team events with amazing food. Every once in a great while they’ll tell us to go out to eat with our families and pay for it with the company card as a thank you.

      Also, I can bring my dog to work which I love. And since I am in a remote office I’m not required to adhere to the dress code or a specific schedule and can flex my hours quite a bit. Basically I’m allowed the freedom to do what I need to do to get my work done correctly and enjoy myself and I like that about my company.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Oh yeah – I almost forgot about that one. My company does tuition reimbursement as well, up to $7500 a year. It’s really nice. I’m considering doing an MBA program that’s $24k for three years, and this reimbursement would only leave me with about $1500 out of pocket.

        2. KimberlyInOhio*

          Yes! I’ve got my bachelors and MBA and am working on a doctorate thanks to tuition reimbursement! I wish they’d raise the annual max, though–I can only take 2 classes per year.

    11. Well hello there...*

      -Significantly subsidized membership to the local bike-share program (there’s a rack of docked bikes on the street adjacent to campus).
      -Subsidized lunches for staff in the on-campus buffet-style (not a la carte) cafeteria, brings it down below cost of any of the sandwich joints nearby.

    12. S-Mart*

      A bunch of coworkers love our flavored/fizzy water cooler. I literally couldn’t care less, personally.

      My favorite perk was the (former) company that stocked free snacks in the kitchen. I don’t remember what exactly, but decent shelf life. IIRC granola bars, chips, crackers (individual sizes of all things, not big communal bags). Same company also had beer in the office on Friday afternoons, which I disliked for several reasons but other people liked.

      I’ve had a couple companies that had a deal with a food truck to come by either occasionally or daily.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        My current company does the food truck thing for people located at the US HQ office – they seem to love it. My last company also had two large shelves of snacks they kept in an empty office – they put that in about a month before I left. I gained so much weight from snacking all day, lol.

    13. LessNosy*

      Half-day Fridays year round. We work 7:30-5:30 M-Th to make up for it. The nature of my workload means I don’t always get to take advantage of this but it is by far the BEST perk.

        2. yala*

          At our place we have to.

          as I heard it, half-day fridays kicked in because of a furlough, and then everyone liked it enough that it stayed and we work 8.75 hours the other four days.

          Our area is pretty shut down on fridays. Maybe managers can stay late, but most of us can’t.

          It’s fine, tbh. A little earlier in the morning than I’d like, but the half day is worth it.

      1. aurora borealis*

        Breakfast every friday
        donuts every Thursday
        Free snacks and drinks
        lots of cool swag
        lenient leave policy
        set your own schedule
        reimbursed for parking
        merit driven bonuses & raises
        I love my company!

    15. Nancie*

      We get a yearly $300 fitness allowance. It’s good for any fitness related membership, classes or equipment. Even smart watches, as long as they have a fitness tracker.

    16. Third or Nothing!*

      We get off every Friday at 3 PM and at noon the day before a holiday. It’s so nice (we’re all salaried so no dock in pay)!

      1. Adlib*

        That sounds amazing. My husband is leaving work now (almost Noon), and I’m working all day like a chump. Heh.

        1. Third or Nothing!*

          It is amazing. I’m about to go organize my daughter’s closet and have a lovely date day with my husband after he wakes up (night shift).

      2. Gatomon*

        We usually get an early release the day before a holiday too, but it’s always kept in suspense! No one gets docked even if hourly, but if you took PTO you do need to mark 8 hours.

        It doesn’t seem to apply when it’s a Friday and the holiday is recognized on Monday though – this happened a few years ago with Christmas and we were all so sad.

    17. M*

      Not my office, but a friend-of-a-friend’s office has a book-budget for each staff member – they’ll reimburse up to $250 of books, any books, whatever books you want, each year.

      3. Fortitude Jones*

        WOW! I would love that! We only get reimbursed for books if it’s related to an approved degree program or some sort of professional development course/program.

        1. CatCat*

          In a two week period covering Monday through Friday, work eight 9 hour days and one 8 hour day for 80 total hours and get a day off.

    19. AnonLawyer*

      We have a terrific on site daycare that is subsidized if you are employee. The same daycare unsubsidized is, no joke, $800 more a month. I can’t overstate what a great benefit it is.

    20. OtterB*

      Substantial flexibility with start/end times and wfh. It is, in a word, fabulous.

      Families included in occasional out-of-office activities: e.g. tickets for staff member and spouse/significant other plus kids to a baseball game once a year in a nice section, with dinner beforehand expensable.

      Lunch catered in for the monthly staff meeting.

      1. KimberlyInOhio*

        Yes! I can pretty much set my own hours too and it’s fantastic. Sometimes I need to be online at 6am to do system updates, and can then go back to bed and come in later. I work from home 2 days a week, and when I go into the office, I usually get there around 9 then leave at 4 and log in again when I get home. Some folks on my team work from 7-3, too. And my boss and grandboss are just super awesome and don’t really care when we roll in as long as the work gets done and stuff that has time crunch is done on time.

    21. Mbarr*

      As a Canadian who works in Software, I’ve been pretty spoiled… Basics like:
      – Great benefits package (including a fitness allowance)
      – Having a treadmill or bike desk that people can book in short increments
      – Fancy coffee machines (a friend’s workplace even has a machine that creates carbonated water)
      – Free snacks (current company offers pops, juices, fruit, granola bars, and in the summer ice cream bars – though in other companies, we’d have ice cream Wednesdays in the summer)
      – Better parental leave
      – Team building activities (e.g. do an escape room together)
      – Office shutdown during the Christmas holiday (many of my companies shut down from Christmas to the day after New Year)
      – Vacation increases after increments (e.g. Either 1 extra week after 5 years of service, or 1 day extra for every year of service, etc)

    22. Murphy*

      I’ve been in my job just over 2 months an I just got told that I can work from home one day a week. I work 45 minutes away, so I am thrilled!

    23. CH*

      Summer Friday hours
      breakfast at our large monthly meeting
      regular treat days, birthday/anniversary treats monthly
      large product discount
      quarterly large lunches (summer employee picnic, Thanksgiving meal, Superbowl and fall BBQ)
      encouraged quarterly teambuilding that are actually fun
      March Madness bracket with opportunity to win $1M a year from Warren Buffet

      My workplace is really awesome.

    24. Catsaber*

      – flex time, as in, being able to work your schedule around things like dependent care pickups, appointments, etc as needed (while still working a core schedule)
      – work from home days

      Basically I just want to be able to drop off and pick up my kids from school without doing obscene logistical gymnastics. Like, being able to leave work at 3pm, pick up the kids, then work my remaining 1.5 hours from home. This can work for a variety of situations, not just for people with kids.

    25. Ann Perkins*

      We get an extra half day paid off per month if it’s used for volunteer purposes. I’m on a nonprofit Board and so I can leave for an afternoon Board meeting and it counts, so I don’t have to flex time or take PTO for those.

    26. Aquawoman*

      I like things that add to work-life balance, telework, comp time. I also get a metro subsidy which saves me $1000 a year, which is nice.

    27. Fikly*

      So, this is city specific, but my company pays for a free Citi Bike membership for anyone who wants one!

    28. theletter*

      we have bagel Fridays, twice a year all-company parties, and a company band. Last job had ‘summer hours’ which was: Fridays closed before labor day and memorial day, and every other friday afternoon off in between. I noticed on the Fridays were people were supposed to finish the whole day, people would subtly sneak away after about 3PM.

      I think a great perk would be some implementation of a Friday roundtable around 2 or 3 PM, and then allowing eligible workers who had finished their projects for the week to pack it up for the weekend if they wanted to.

    29. Clisby*

      Before I retired (and before I went to full-time telecommute), by far the best perk was flex-time. In my job (computer programmer) I initially was expected to come to work between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m.; take a lunch period of between 1/2 hour and 1.5 hours; and work 8 hours outside of lunch. So I could work 7 a.m. – 3:30; or I could work 9 a.m. – 6:30; or various combinations in between. There was an unwritten rule that unless there was an outright emergency, nobody scheduled a meeting after 3 p.m., because many people would be leaving at 3:30. The reality, once you had been there for awhile and you had a decent manager, nobody cared if you came in at 6 a.m. and left at 2 p.m., or took a 2-hour lunch, etc. as long as you got your work done.

    30. LilacLily*

      at our office we have a weekly quick massage session; the calendar to schedule the massage opens Monday morning online and three masseurs come Tuesday morning and stay all day giving out fifteen minutes long massages to everyone who managed to schedule (there aren’t enough openings for everyone in the office). I personally love it! I would prefer if the massage was 30-minutes long but at the same I’m not complaining :P

      we also have some basic stuff: machines with free coffee, milk, hot chocolate (nothing really tasty but good enough to scratch an itch) and hot water in case you want to make some tea, sugar packages and artificial sweeteners on the side, water coolers, and a kitchen with fridges, freezers, microwaves and a sink for people to do dishes.

      1. Doug Judy*

        We have a masseuse come twice a month. Sometimes it’s free (like after the busy season) but most time you have to pay $10 for 15 minutes or $20 for a 30 minute one. Even having to pay it’s still a nice perk because it’s not too expensive and I can do it on a break.

        Other perks at my job are an on-site fitness room and our building is on a nature trail. The company definitely encourages taking a walking break or doing walking one-on-ones. I love it because after work I’m busy at home with the kids, but I can fit in a workout over lunch.

    31. Princesa Zelda*

      My city gives all it’s employees a free bus pass for personal use. It makes my life a lot easier and saves me at least $50 a month!

    32. Nicki Name*

      Free monthly transit passes! We have the choice of that or subsidized parking, but in a downtown area the parking is still pretty expensive even with a discount. I get a lot of use out of my pass outside of work, too.

      1. Bostonian*

        Ditto. I would take the public transport option over parking any day. But that’s because there’s no way I’d drive to work every day :-)

      2. Yuan Zai*

        We have those, too. I live so close to my office that I walk to work but the transit pass we get is for our regional organization (which includes five different transit agencies) and I make use of it all the time.

    33. Bostonian*

      1) regular work from home options (with no strict rules or monitoring) At this point, I don’t think I would take another job that didn’t allow it
      2) commuter reimbursement that essentially covers my monthly pass for when I do go into the office

    34. Art3mis*

      Free onsite gym
      Dress for your day means jeans if you aren’t having client meetings
      Flexible schedules
      Discounts to area businesses, cell phone plans, and AAA
      Tuition assistance program above tuition reimbursement that’s also available to spouses

    35. it's me*

      Healthy snacks! Yogurt, granola bars, almonds, oatmeal, cheese, applesauce, pita chips and hummus, juices, packaged salads, and fruits (avocados, bananas, nectarines, strawberries, grapes, oranges, etc.).

    36. new kid*

      I just moved from a start up to a large non-profit and the core benefits at my new job outweigh any of the old “start up” perks by a long shot, though I definitely get why some of that stuff can be morale boosters in the moment (and was for me too at the time).

      But ymmv, so here’s the comparison of some of my favorites at each:
      * start up: catered lunches (3 days a week at our best, 1 day a week when we were struggling), self-improvement/industry book credit ($100 per book read with really quick 1 page submission form, up to $500/year), quarterly bonuses based on shared company-wide goals
      * non-profit: waaay more PTO (start up had ‘unlimited’ technically but that’s such a crock) + tons of holiday time including the entire week of xmas thru new years, outrageous 403b matching (100% of 10%), telecommute 1 day/wk after 6 months

      1. Bananatiel*

        Scrolled to see if anyone else had this– it’s one of my personal favorites. Especially since the classes are offered in the building which really does help keep me active. I would never be able to keep up with driving to a gym just to work out. A year’s worth of yoga classes is only ~$150 to me because of the subsidy.

      2. NW Mossy*

        Ditto! The trainers who lead the classes are wonderful, and they’re a big reason why I’ve been able to stay in a stable exercise routine for the last 7 years. While I’m not looking to change companies anyway because I really like my job, the loss of this particular perk would be a big reason not to.

    38. D.W.*

      Flexible schedules! We aren’t quite at compressed work weeks (which would be awesome) but there is a lot of flexibility around telework and needing to come in early/leave late.

    39. Lovecraft Beauty*

      My employer will pay for a cab home or wherever you need to go if there’s a family emergency. Obviously, you hope you never need to use this, and I can’t speak to how the process actually works, but as someone who just had a major family medical emergency (it happened over the weekend), I’m really glad to know I wouldn’t have had to do logistics right after getting the call if it had come when I was at work.

      1. Lissajous*

        Related to this, I was able to use our company’s (very good) travel agent when I had a family emergency and had to get my mum and I to the other side of the country ASAP. To be able to say “I need two seats that get me to X city as soon as possible, and by the time we land we need somewhere to stay for at least a few days,” and have it just happen was the absolute best possible thing at that particular moment. We were on a plane within an hour and a half of the initial phone call from the hospital, and that included an hour’s driving for me.

        Travel agent just put it all on the company account and I paid them back when the invoice came through a month later. This wasn’t anything official, more the perks of working at a small company and having been there for several years.

    40. Sarra*

      it’s a really small thing, but I like it – we have a tall table set up near the entrance to the office space, and the bosses buy jigsaw puzzles and we do puzzles there. sometimes it’s just a quick “put a couple pieces in on the way back from a meeting”, sometimes it’s “talk about this thorny work issue that’s come up while doing a third of the latest puzzle”, sometimes it’s “take your lunch to the puzzle table and talk about trashy reality shows”.

    41. RMNPgirl*

      We have a care committee that puts together events throughout the year – a tailgate, halloween party, holiday party, etc. Those are pretty fun.
      However, the most popular thing we have is the free birthday candy bar. Everyone gets a candy bar wrapped in paper that says Happy Birthday on it in their mailbox or on their desk. When a survey went out about employee recognition, this was by and far the number one thing people chose.

    42. Ihmmy*

      Canadian, so ymmv a bit but what I like most about the perks at my current gig are:
      -discounted bus pass (it’s a City/employer program), plus automatically paid for before my income makes it to me
      -flex spending account that we can dedicate once a year to either health (gym, runners, etc) or paramedical (additional acupuncture, massage etc in addition to the basic amount covered)
      -catered meetings/events – the leftovers are set up in the kitchen and staff are notified when something is there
      -comfy chairs to go hangout on for break times
      -windows / natural light
      -filtered water (like others have mentioned)
      -pancake appreciation breakfast once a year
      -appreciation burger lunch once a year
      The union I’m in also has some specifics to just our group (there are a few different unions under my employers umbrella)
      -one ‘earned day off’ every third week
      -expectation of no overtime -> work/life balance

      1. Mama Bear*

        Most of us have an office. Not everyone has a private office. Many of the offices have a window/natural light. I worked in an open office and I love having a door.

        Work/life balance is HUGE. Being able to take care of family (so long as we don’t abuse it) makes people happier to be here.

    43. Youth*

      Team leaders order catering for their teams and then leave it public areas for others to finish off. I didn’t have a lunch on Wednesday and ended up scoring some yummy Greek food from outside a conference room near my desk.

      I also work in an area with almost no restaurants. My company brings in food trucks every day so people who want to eat out can.

    44. Coloredpens*

      Casual Friday is my favorite. I also love that my office will buy you any (within reason) office supplies that you want. Not just the regular stuff but a 20 pack of my favorite colored gel pens, every size and color of post-it notes, desk organizers, specific office chairs, whatever size and shape of notepad that you like, etc. It’s really nice to have all the supplies that you need/want.

    45. TurkeyLurkey*

      1. Echoing what other folks have said about flexibility about working from home as needed and starting or ending early as long as you are available during “core hours.” I feel trusted about handling my time and the parents on my team seem less stressed about kid pickups and dropoffs.
      2. Electric sit-stand desks for everybody, paired with very adjustable office chairs. I’m below average height and being able to type comfortably while having my feet on the floor is magical.

      1. Bostonian*

        Oooooh I’m jealous of the sit-stand for everyone! We have standing desk conference rooms, but it can be (or just feel like) a pain to transport to and fro and not have everything that you usually have at your desk.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Electric sit-stand desks for everybody, paired with very adjustable office chairs. I’m below average height and being able to type comfortably while having my feet on the floor is magical.

        My company has these as well at the HQ location. People seem to love them.

    46. Kare Bare*

      At my firm admins can work from home two days a week (if their job permits).
      Wednesdays are Fruit Day and Thursdays are Veggie Day. The produce is provided by some company that delivers.

    47. Ginger Baker*

      Lots of great suggestions, many of which I also have/appreciate. One I haven’t seen mentioned yet is some sort of concierge service. I never used the one at my last place, but my current job (also BigLaw) has CareConnect which is like…therapy-related stuff but also they can research other things for you (plan vacations, etc.). So for instance, when my older kid said they wanted to see a therapist, I was daunted by the “how do I locate one who takes our insurance and [other requirements]??” question, and I was able to call CC, tell them what I wanted, and they did all the legwork for me. It. Was. Amazing. And I am about to utilize again for Kid 2!

    48. Sassy*

      Every other week a masseuse comes and gives employees a 15 minute chair massage. Totally optional for those who want it, but I LOVE it.

    49. dumb dumb*

      Flex time for salaried non-exempt workers!!! An important perk for me is not getting nit-picked over being at work exactly 7.5 hours each day, 5 days a week, at the same start time and end time each day. I’m salaried, non-exempt which means I only qualify for overtime if I work over a full 40 hours a week. Since lunch is unpaid 30 minutes a day, I have to put in an extra 2.5 hours to add to the 37.5 I have to work in order to get overtime. So, my point is that since most salaried, non-exempt rarely actually qualify for overtime, don’t be picky about 10 minutes here and 20 minutes there. That is a huge perk for me! I don’t want to have to stare at a wall for 20 minutes just to satisfy the 7.5 hours I should be at work. This also goes along with don’t be a jerk about starting times and ending times. As long as someone does good work and gets all their stuff done, who cares if they are in the building at exactly 8:30am each day. If I come in late by a few minutes, I will stay a few minutes late – especially if there is a project on the line. Granted, if it is going to be more than 10 minutes, it would be nice to let your manager know so they are thinking you were hit by a bus. But the manager shouldn’t be a dink about a little flexibility.

    50. MoopySwarpet*

      We’re too small to get any perks beyond free company product and pretty good flex time, but some things I would enjoy:

      – Public transportation passes
      – Gym or rec center memberships (probably rec center over gym since they tend to offer a wider variety of classes and different ones have different equipment options usually all on the same pass)
      – If your parking’s not free, free parking (and/or covered parking – I’d love covered parking, but that’s not happening here)
      – If you are large enough, weekly/monthly food trucks might be fun even if it’s just to schedule one, not necessarily free. (Although free or discounted would be awesome, of course.)
      – Streaming services (Netflix, Hulu, Pandora, Spotify, etc.) for use not at work. ;)

      1. Bananatiel*

        One thing I miss about my old job were the periodic food truck surprises. Though in that case, everyone was underpaid so sometimes those could be a little bit chaotic with people clamoring to get their “fair share”. Nonetheless, the ice cream truck visit we had on a particularly hot summer day one year was fabulous and great for morale!

      2. Mama Bear*

        For working parents – daycare/preschool on site or nearby and/or a clean, convenient and private pumping space that is not someone’s borrowed office or a bathroom. We had a shower/sink/bench setup at my old office that was almost ideal. Runners could use it as well as nursing moms. No toilet meant you weren’t so worried about germs.

    51. designbot*

      We get up to $500/year in education reimbursements. Some people take ceramics classes, I’ve taken sign painting classes, gone to conferences… we’re a design studio so we can take a fairly broad view of what constitutes a work-related class. The only drawback is that we then have to do a presentation on the topic to the office.

    52. Jaid*

      My Federal job provides transportation subsidies and parking spaces. For me, that’s about $175 a month for a transpass, your version may vary.

    53. Green Goose*

      My org has the most generous PTO I’ve come across. We’re not a school but we get nine weeks off a year (closed for two weeks in winter and one week in summer, then I get 30 PTO days) and then we get another 8-10 holidays. For example, we have today off for a 4-day Labor Day weekend.

      We also have a social budget and can organize happy hours or lunches at our office periodically which is good for bonding/morale.

    54. DreamingInPurple*

      Tuition reimbursement or assistance that ISN’T “at your manager’s discretion”.

    55. EH*

      We have sparkling water on tap in the break room and love it. Also, we have a bank of those bulk-grains-style snack dispensers, where you pull a lever and M&Ms or whatever fall out. There’s cereal, candy, trail mix, etc, and it’s pretty rad.

    56. Mama Bear*

      We have FREE coffee/Keurigs and a water cooler with hot, room temp, and cold water. I never realized that a sink was a perk until I worked in a client office without. A kitchen with more than one microwave is good, plus the standard fridge/freezer.

      I also worked in an office that had this incredible water machine where you could get flavored water. They also had nice snacks.

      Discounts are nice, too – tickets, insurance, phone…our cell plan was started under a company discount plan, so we continue to save $ even though I no longer work there.

      I miss teleworking on a regular basis. But currently my company pays 100% of our healthcare if we choose a particular plan and that’s phenomenal. I’ll take the trade.

    57. Fortitude Jones*

      My biggest perk is the ability to be a fully remote employee. My company also has four weeks paid parental leave at 100% of your salary, quarterly bonus potential for everyone in the company (not just sales/sales adjacent folks like at my last employer), and our US HQ location has a cafeteria that’s almost 100% subsidized so that breakfast and lunch are dirt cheap (e.g., when I visit HQ, their huge three egg omelets are only $3!). Oh – they also have free Starbucks and Peet’s Coffee.

    58. Libretta*

      They’ve partnered with a well-known organization that provides (vetted, background checked) child and adult caregivers. I get 10 days per year where I can get emergency backup care for my kids or adults that I would have to skip work to care for. Cost is $5/hour. I have both children and adults in my life who need care and this has been an awesome benefit.

    59. Lurker2209*

      Free childcare once my baby is 12 months old!! I’m a preschool teacher and it really makes up for the low pay in this profession.

      From a business perspective, there are issues. It’s a huge benefit to our staff who have young kids, but makes it harder to attract and retain staff who are outside that demographic. I’m considering moving to a different role in education when my children are in elementary school. I think my boss is trying to move towards a model where they offer a discount for staff children but increase pay for everyone so it’s more equitable.

    60. TechWorker*

      1) we can wear basically whatever we want (sometimes I dress smart-ish, sometimes t-shirt and Jean shorts. When’s it’s hot, this is welcomed)

      2) the ability to work bank holidays and take the time another day. This is really useful if you don’t actually have any specific plans and would rather use the day as part of a longer holiday another time. Or even just to shift the day off by a week so you can go to a tourist attraction or whatever on a day when it’s not manically busy.

    61. Quinalla*

      Very flexible schedule and WFH as needed. As long as I am getting in minimum 40 hours (as we have plenty of billable work to do) and getting my work done, I am good to go to leave early or come in late because of appointments, WFH to meet with plumbers, etc. Very helpful for dealing with house and kid stuff!

      It’s a small thing, but we get free fruit. Its such a simple but thoughtful thing to provide so I’m not going for that candy bar in my drawer when I’m super hungry, I can eat an apple or banana instead.

      I also enjoy our casual dress code. If we aren’t meeting with clients, etc. we can wear jeans and even shorts some days in the summer. I still will wear a dressy top so I can feel more put together, but being able to wear jeans is nice as I don’t have to have so many dressy pants anymore.

    62. Robin Ellacott*

      The most appreciated things of course involve work hours, vacation, and working from home, but those are not always possible.

      We work under a government contract which stipulates we can’t alter our open hours or work from home, but we make a point of approving any day off / leave early requests we can (almost all), and we have a strict no overtime policy. At 5:10 everyone is GONE, except me locking the doors and anyone lingering to chat with me. I will prod anyone still working to leave, as will the CEO. People seem to really appreciate that clear expectation that you only work your set hours.

      We do have more vacation after 5 and 10 years, and in the case of long illness we often pay out more sick time than people have accrued. We sometimes will pay for college courses if there is some relevance to work.

      On a more minor level: the coffee machine that makes each cup from freshly ground beans seems popular, as does green/black/mint tea provided. Also we buy a few big bags of chips every Friday, which is apparently much more exciting and appreciated than I ever could have predicted. Ditto some freezies I put in the communal freezer when the weather was hot.

      We have periodic pizza lunches and such when there has been a busy time or to celebrate something, and quarterly training/learning sessions in which we have a presentation on something of general interest or learn about a life skill type thing like communication or contentment, not too touchy feely – this seems to be popular. Occasionally we’ve let volunteers do something like beach cleanup on company time. We also invite staff to fill in anonymous forms nominating a colleague who went above and beyond, and do a random draw for a gift card each month.

    63. stitchinthyme*

      A few that my company has:

      – One catered meal a week
      – Free snacks and drinks
      – Casual dress code (jeans and t-shirts are allowed)

      But the biggest one for me, and one of the main reasons I’ve stayed this long, is having an office all to myself. Not being in a cube farm is REALLY nice.

    65. HNL123*

      Not all from the same employer, but perks my husband or I have had:
      1) 401K match
      2) tuition reimbursement
      3) work remote when needed, flexible time as needed
      4) unlimited hot yoga!!!!
      5) weekly fitness classes (I could get up to 2 classes a week, kind of worked like ClassPass at a bunch of cool studios and gyms around town)
      6) Suuuuuuper casual dress code
      7) weekly free breakfast
      8) Free GOOD coffee
      9) a good health insurance plan that included things like chiropractor, acupuncture, Invisalign, etc
      10) on-site fitness classes and as long as you didn’t have meetings/finished your work, you could take as many as you wanted, even during the day.

    66. only acting normal*

      True 100% flexible working.
      A standard week is 37 hours, but you can work less or more as needed, as long as you don’t go too far into flexi-debt (or credit). You can use flex-credit to take up to 3 days off per month, and the “accounting period” is a year (you can roll over a few days worth of credit, but no debt).
      We also have overtime (UK, so exempt/non isn’t how it works) – if you work more than 37h in one week you can book it as OT (and get paid for it) or regular time (and it adds to your flex-credit).

    67. WorkingGirl*

      Flexible schedule. My “standard hours” are m-f 9-5, but this week on Monday I worked 8:30-4:30 so I could go volunteer, and 10-6 Friday (I was out late Thursday). Working shifted hours next week so I can take the dog to the vet. It’s absolutely wonderful that I can flex as needed, almost no questions asked.

    68. Effective Immediately*

      35 hour work weeks; generous PTO; flex time; occasional work from home; a lot of holidays and half days prior to them.

      I’m making ~30k under market value for my role, but it was worth it to be able to recover from burnout at my last one.

    69. Ambivelant Advertiser*

      I like this thread. It’s making me feel more positive about my company after a crummy week!
      – weekly work from home days
      – they pay for parking and our membership to a prett nice gym in our office building
      -weekly team breakfast
      -relatively frequent happy hours at nice places
      – occasional team social activities like indoor sky diving and corporate runs

  8. Curly Girl*

    I (mid 30’s white women) recently moved across the county and my hair hasn’t caught up. I used to blow it out straight, but it’s more humid here and that doesn’t last very long.
    I’m thinking of just leaning into whatever natural texture I have (somewhere in 2b/2c?) and trying a like DevaCurl or the Curly Girl Method.

    Is curly hair unprofessional?
    What about the start up or adjustment period when trying a new style?
    Any general curly girls in the office advice?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I have thin wavyish hair and therefore have no practical advice, but I want to tell you with 100% certainty that curly is not unprofessional, and anyone who says so is wrong and may they step on legos barefoot.

    2. Wearing Many Hats*

      Curly hair is 100% professional. It is the way your hair naturally comes out of your head. People who have an issue with this have their own underlying problems.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think curly hair is fine. If you decide *you* don’t want to wear it curly (because let’s face it, in my experience, curly hair worn curly doesn’t like humidity any more than curly hair worn straight), you might look into a keratin treatment.

      Also, anti-frizz products are your friend. I like anything with a ‘cone in it (generally dimethicone) but different people have different results.

      1. Natalie*

        Be cautious if you switch to Devacurl or another low/no SLS shampoo, though – those generally aren’t compatible with silicone based products.

    4. Semaj*

      Curly hair is not at all unprofessional!

      I do the curly girl method. There will be a few weeks at the start when your hair is adjusting to the change and regulation of oil where your hair will feel more gross than usual, but persist, it gets better! There are definitely some go-to curly styles with your hair in a bun and pinned back that look cute and professional and hide days where you’re a little oily. I’ve had good luck searching for curly hair styles on pinterest and there are lots of photo-guides of how to do different buns/updos.

      Dry shampoo is your friend. After I adjusted to the curly girl method it’s honestly easier than what I was doing before. Less washes, less upkeep, and my hair dries presentably rather than having to be blowdryed, straightened, etc.

      Good luck!

      1. New Job So Much Better*

        Mine is curly due to a medicine I had to take. I just wash it and let it dry naturally, pull back with little combs. Nothing unprofessional about it.

    5. Curly Mane*

      I have always worn my hair curly (2b/3a-ish) in a humid climate. My hair is professional because I’m a professional. It’s not tangled, and it sometimes gets a bit too poofy so I’ll put it up, but some amount of frizz is something I accept at work. I refuse to damage my hair straightening it because people think my mane is out of control.

      I’m a white early 30s woman Project Manager in tech, btw.

    6. Natalie*

      You might try the LCO/LOC method for frizziness – liquid/oil/cream or liquid/cream/oil depending on which works better for you. With #2 curls just use a light hand with the products at first, it’s really, really easy to over oil your hair.

      1. JoJo*

        I personally fell in love with Mixed Chicks leave-in conditioner after trying all sorts of things that cost several times more. Plus, places like CVS and Target have trial-sized versions if you don’t want to pay $20 to see if you like it.

    7. Rey*

      Curly hair is not unprofessional!! It is how it comes out of your head, it didn’t ask your permission, and I assume it doesn’t affect your ability to do your job (unless you have to put it up in food service or manufacturing, which is still normal).

      I use some aspects of DevaCurl and Curly Girl Method, so I don’t adhere strictly to a particular thing, but its more about finding products and application methods that help, not hurt, my natural texture. If you are on instagram, there are tons of accounts that deep-dive into all of these things. And they often have comparison photos that show the adjustment period, which I think you’ll see differs dramatically and will continue to change for at least one year. It will be noticeable to you, because its your hair, but I highly doubt that coworkers will notice that much.

      I prefer letting my hair air dry, which usually takes 2-3 hours. I’m not willing to wake up that much earlier, so I wear my hair wet into work. It works for me, but I know that some people don’t like that. If that’s the case, you might still find yourself using your blow dryer to get mostly dry, and there are lots of great diffuser options that you should be able to attach to your current blow dryer. And again, instagram has demo videos of different blowdrying techniques for curly hair.

      1. Reba*

        Yeah, I also do the air drying thing on days I wash my hair. It seems fine in my current workplace but I do wonder how it reads to people. (I also have really long hair, so I feel like maybe it’s more noticeable that it’s wet.)

        I also follow some aspects of Curly Girl. Of the Deva products, the Mist-er Right is the one that is truly [flame emoji] for me!

    8. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      I have a big pre-raphaelite mane. If I was told I had to straighten it for the office I’d quit and sue.

    9. Linda L*

      No, curly hair is not unprofessional. But you want to feel good about your style so you can be confident at work. Is your hair long enough to put up in a bun or twist? If so, I’d suggest practicing with the DevaCurl or Curly Girl Method on a weekend until you perfect it and have a fallback updo for days when it’s just not working. It took me a few tries before I learned the right amount of product to use. I had my stylist put long layers in my hair when I started to wear it curly and it looks a lot better than just wearing it blunt cut and curly.

      2. Goldfinch*

        Do an image search for “waterfall layers”. In my experience, not a ton of stylists are good with curls, so providing a lot of photo examples is a must.

        Also note: I was really disappointed with my DevaCut, so buyer beware. They’re very pricey.

    10. EGA*

      I live in DC (read: very very humid) with big, curly hair. Yes, sometimes my hair looks a little worse for wear at the end of a summer day, but overall I don’t have any workplace problems with it.

      I use heat on my hair about once a month, and use some aspects of the curly girl method.

      Mostly, I get a ton of compliments on my hair! Good luck and have fun!

    11. Quill*

      My curly hair better be professional, it takes 4+ hours to do anything but let it curl.

      I more or less use the curly girl method (not down to the product but religiously never applying heat to my hair, keeping it as conditioned as possible) but I have very thick, coarse hair. You’re going to have a transition period, wherein a ‘messy bun’ will be your best friend, before you find a routine that works.

      Also if you want to get it cut to get rid of split ends you’re going to have to be VERY SPECIFIC in finding a stylist that works with curly hair.

    12. KR*

      Ok first if you’re into Reddit at all I’d check out r/curlyhair. They have a lot of good tips on there for all types of curls. You can lurk without making an account I think.
      Curly hair is not unprofessional! I have wild curly/wavy hair with a mind of its own. Though this may not work for your office I found the best way is to just embrace it! Yes I have a lot of hair, yes it’s crazy, but when I started letting it do it’s thing naturally I got so many complements on it.
      My advice for humidity (and curls in general) is to find a good conditioner that doesn’t weigh down your hair. Only wash when you have to but condition every time you wet your hair. Do not comb or brush your hair unless you have to! Some knots are ok and they will probably work themselves out – I only brush when I’m straightening my hair or it is literally getting matts in it. Brushing/screwing with it will separate the curls and then when the humidity hits they will poof up and separate even more. After I get out of the shower I try my hardest to not toucu my hair other than gently setting my part. If you run mouse through it, scrunch and plop it instead of combing through with your hands.
      Finally bumble and bumbles curl primer is a life saver. Spray it on your hair when it’s wet and it will dry amazingly if your hair is anything like mine. I also used the shampoo when I lived in a humid environment, though I haven’t tried the conditioner (kind of pricy). Now I live in the desert and my curls recover easier so I don’t need to be as careful.

    13. curly sue*

      I will tell you that I have never leaned so hard into curly hair as I did after I had a blow-out on a whim and an acquaintance *gushed* over ‘how professional you look for once.’ Screw that. I’ve been boosting my curls with mousse ever since and no-one at my actual workplace has ever blinked.

      I do tend to carry a few bobby pins in my pocket or purse for the days where the weather or the wind kick up; then I can take a moment in the bathroom, twist everything up into a loose bun, and carry on.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Ugh. When I first straightened my hair, it was kind of a big deal at work, but no one ever said it was “more professional.” I love the way you pushed back.

        1. curly sue*

          Thank you! I was ambivalent – leaning to – happy enough with my hair before that, but I found that righteous indignation is a great font of self-love for me. (There’s also a racial component involved for me personally. I’m not Black but I am from a minority group which tends towards very curly hair and discrimination based on stereotypical features, so part of my reaction was triggered by my fear that she was associating ‘working towards being white-passing’ with ‘professional’ and assuming I would agree. HARD no.)

          1. cmcinnyc*

            In our most recent HR annual anti-discrimination mandatory lawyer-talking-at-us-with-seriousness session, we were reminded that you cannot discriminate (at least, in the City of NY, and possibly the whole state) on the basis of “natural hair.” Meaning, however your hair grows out of your head is officially *professional.* If you dye it blue or rainbow maybe your boss can fuss but if you want to wear it straight and flat or in a giant afro, if it’s your hair it’s all fair. No dress code can legally mandate what kind of hair you grow nor prohibit braids, dreads, buns, bangs, afros, long, short, bald. Any limits must have a business rationale (as in, must be in a net for food service, etc.).

      2. Hope*

        WTF. Your acquantaince is an idiot.

        (I have boring straight hair and would LOVE to have curly hair. Curly hair looks a hell of a lot better/more professional than my limp-ass hair ever will.)

    14. writelhd*

      It’s your hair, and the whole “curly hair is unprofessional” thing is just so tired. The curly girl method is way better than whatever else I ever did my whole life (I have 2c hair)–especially in a humid environment. Just do it, be happy with your hair, and use that confidence to do better in your job, and THAT’s super professional.

      However my general tips (my game on this was actually upped recently by a strong networking connection I made with a very coveted professional in my field…who also has long curly hair and doesn’t give a crap about it. We got to skip the small talk and go straight to bonding cause of the hair. We even met up to swap products, and she would not give that kind of access to most people my level for actual work related stuff):

      1) Keep a tube of your favorite curly haired styling cream in your office drawer for a mid-day frizz fix. You could try a squirt bottle of water too but the cream does better. My current favorite is shea moisture curl maker max hold, but the one for you depends on your hair porosity and thickness. You do have to do some trial and error. The diva curl one is good too, it’s just pricey.

      2)The curly girl method rules that can be hard for people to bring themselves to do, but that give you results you won’t see unless you totally commit to them, are a) absolutely no burnishing/combing while dry, and very minimal combing while wet only to de tangle with the fattest tooth comb you can mentally stand to use, and b) really don’t wash your hair but once every few days. maybe even once a week. (and when you do, follow all the rules about allowable products, deep condition the heck out of it and shampoo only minimally or not at all) It took me a while to actually commit to the latter one (I transitioned by dunking my head in the sink real quick in the morning to try to “re-shape” the weird night shapes it got into, but I recently just weaned myself off doing even that), but it really made a difference fast when I finally did it. Instead, just pat your hair down with a mix of water and conditioner or even with just a curl cream or styling gel again to kind of shape it how you want it, then let it go. I was surprised at how much less frizz and better shape I had on days 2, 3, 4, etc after a wash that I had when I did this. That leads me to my next tip…

      3.) Day 1 after a wash with a diva curl type products is actually not the best hair day for many. It’s ok, but subsequent days are actually often better.

    15. Lizzy May*

      Curly hair is not unprofessional. That being said, I’d probably still try out any new style at home on the weekend just because if I discover I hate it part way through the day, it’s easier to fix at home.

    16. Paralegal Part Deux*

      My sister and I swear by Miss Jessie’s curl cream from Target. I’ve used DevaCurl, too, but Miss Jessie’s is easier to access and works better, IMHO. I haven’t ever had anybody say anything about my curly hair other than they like it and to ask if it’s natural. So, I don’t think it’s unprofessional at all. I wear mine both straight and curly depending on my mood.

    17. Kay*

      I love wearing my hair with the natural curl, and it always looks more professional than a “lost the battle” blow dry, imo. The key is to experiment with shampoo and get a good leave in conditioner. I wash at night a couple hours before bed (key to prevent the worst of bedhead!!), scrunch with the conditioner, and let it dry fully overnight. Five minutes with a curling iron in the morning to add some neatness and I’m ready to go straight into a meeting. Enjoy!

    18. LizB*

      Curly hair is not unprofessional! I’m also in that 2b/2c range, and honestly I look way more professional now that I take proper care of my curls instead of trying to ignore or work around them and ending up all frizzy and blah.
      I took the following steps:
      – Found a salon that specifically cuts curly hair; mine isn’t a DevaCurl salon, but they do dry cuts for curly hair so they can actually see what shape and length you’ll end up with
      – Switched to a sulfate-free shampoo and conditioner and found a leave-in product I like; I use the Coconut & Hibiscus line from Shea Moisture, and their Curl Enhancing Smoothie for my leave-in
      – Once a week, replace shampoo with apple cider vinegar diluted in water
      – Stopped doing towel turbans and started just scrunching with a towel and then letting my hair air-dry (I could diffuse but am too lazy)

      There was definitely an adjustment period in switching to sulfate-free products. For the first few weeks, I did a few days with the new stuff, then one day with my old sulfatey stuff to cut some of the built-up oils, and gradually reduced the frequency of the old products as my hair got used to it and stopped overproducing so much. I’ve recently started transitioning to pretty much only using conditioner, with shampoo once every week or two, and it’s been a similar process of management.

      My biggest issue is if I don’t wake up early enough, my hair will still be slightly wet when I get to work, which isn’t the most professional vibe. I could avoid this by diffusing, but my workplaces have never really cared as long as I’m not dripping wet.

        1. LizB*

          I just kinda eyeball it, to be honest. I’ve seen advice online to do 2 parts water to 1 ACV, but that doesn’t seem to work as well for my hair, so I put closer to half and half in my spray bottle.

        2. The Original K.*

          I do ACV rinses every other time I wash my hair and I use 1 tablespoon of ACV with three tablespoons of water. (I’m Black, with 3C-ish hair.) I don’t use it as a shampoo replacement though – I shampoo, apply the ACV rinse, leave it in for about five minutes, then rinse it out and condition and style as usual.

          1. Parenthetically*

            ACV rinses are so great, even on my hair which is dirty blonde and 2A at its most wavy.

    19. JoJo*

      I too am a white woman with that texture, and truly hated DevaCurl (but maybe I just had a bad stylist). It turned out to be purely hacking my hair using nothing other than that thinning technique (you know, where your hair is basically shredded with a razor)? I always found long layers to work wonders instead.

      Also, curly/wavy hair is coming back. It has taken the better part of 15-20 years, but suddenly, within the last 6 months to a year, stylists are no longer imposing what seemed like mandatory Keratin treatments and blowouts. Shaggy hair is coming back too.

      1. Catsaber*

        A shag can be great for wavy/frizzy hair! My friend did a shag and she looks fabulous. It really embraces the erratic non-pattern that some wavy hair has (like mine) and makes it look more intentional.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Proceed with caution! I’m ~2b, but probably leaned closer to 3a in high school, and my hair was thicker in HS (still thick). So, it was the 90s, and I had a shag haircut, and it was a hot mess.

          Right now, my hair is just below my shoulders (long layers, no bangs), and I can wear it curly/wavy or straighten it. But, go 1″ above my shoulders or have short layers, and it hits my wave pattern in a weird way so that my hair sticks out all over. When I was a teenager, family members said they thought it would be curlier if I cut layers/went shorter. Nope.

      2. JoJo*

        OH CORRECTION: The cutting technique used on my hair was a Ouidad stylist, not Devacurl, and man, was it awful for my hair — I mean it nearly destroyed it (and I have super-thick hardy wavy hair).

    20. Catsaber*

      My hair is about that texture and no amount of curly hair products ever worked for me, but that’s probably because the hairs are fine (despite there being a lot of them). So anything that puts even a tiny bit of weight onto the hair just makes it all lanky and mushy.

      What works for me is covering my hair when I’m outside for the brief period of house > car > work. No amount of product or styling or whatever ever made my hair stand up to the humidity. But a light cover typically solves all those problems. Like those little old lady hair bonnets. You’ll feel dumb, but embrace it.

      I do that when I really want to maintain a certain style. But most of the time I just embrace the frizz. Recently though, I shaved my head and am now at the 6 week grow out “crop pixie,” and I’m loving it. I have a very Twiggy/Mia Farrow 60s vibe going on, and my hair cares not one whit about humidity or rain.

      P.S. Curly is definitely not unprofessional!

    21. Honoria Glossop*

      I adamantly agree with everyone else and curly hair is not unprofessional in any way. However, I personally like my hair better when it’s straight and should you feel the same, I find straightening lasts WAY longer if I use a straightening iron instead of blowing it out.

    22. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve never straightened my hair. It’s professional.

      I use frizz control sprays but that’s so I don’t have fly aways and to keep it neat but the damage heat and chemicals used in straightening processes scares the heck out of me.

    23. Kimmybear*

      I’ve got 3a/3b hair in humid DC. Curly hair is not unprofessional. Is it clean? Is it styled (either up or down in a way that is neat)? That’s what matters.

    24. CoffeeforLife*

      Just came to say I’m jealous of all your curly haired goddesses. I inherited a massive amount of stick straight hair that won’t hold a curl or achieve any sort of volume. I regularly fantasize about getting a perm (then I remember my 80s school pics) and pretending to be in your cool club.

    25. Clisby*

      I don’t have curly hair, but … how could curly hair be unprofessional? Isn’t that kind of like saying red hair might be unprofessional?

      1. curly sue*

        There’s often an unspoken and/or unconscious racialized element that comes along with seeing curly hair as ‘untamed’ and so on. Sometimes, as with natural Black hair, it becomes very conscious and spoken, but a lower-key version of it definitely exists for other groups. Some of it goes back to Enlightenment-era ideas, where the deliberately controlled and contained body (corseted, bewigged, artificial, etc) was the noble, appropriate body, and others were less-civilized.

    26. I'm A Little Teapot*

      As long as your hair is cared for and clean, I’m good with it. Straight, curly, in between, permed, dyed, wigs, whatever.

    27. big X*

      “Is curly hair unprofessional?”

      Absolutely not – typically it’s black hair that people want to regulate & that has a whole lot of history. Since you live in a humid place, I would also do a quick porosity test. I have low porosity hair and surprisingly, Trader Joe’s Tea Tree shampoo + conditioner work wonders for me. Costs about 4 bucks each (I used to spend like 11-15 dollars on just shampoo or conditioner alone for my hair…). Be sure to also have a moisturizer as well – I use some Shea brand low porosity leave-in (does have an intense smell though or maybe I use too much) with a little argon oil, which won’t weigh down my hair.

      You kind of just have to experiment a little bit and see what your hair likes (esp how often you are washing – people still have this notion that everyone has to wash their hair everyday). You can adhere to a method but I am skeptical that these methods are “one size fits all.” They are a good starting place and knowledge base though!

    28. theletter*

      I feel like a statement that curly hair is unprofessional is . . .. problematic.

      I have had no options but to rock a big ‘Long Bob Ross’ hairstyle my entire life, endured extensive bullying, felt like it was holding me back from things I wanted to do, gotten all kinds of weird comments on it. But reading other stories about hair care taught me a deeper level of empathy. When the army tried to ban natural hairstyles such as twists and braids, I understood why people were so upset.

      We seem to have a societal norm of “women’s hair is never good enough.”

      Get a satin cap, thick conditioner and a hair mask, and find a hair style that works best for your hair and your lifestyle. Do not fear the volume. It is disruptive for a reason. It is bold for a reason. It is the curl the future.

    29. Daydreaming*

      I have curly hair, and I have never been accused of being unprofessional with it. No idea the texture of it…
      My approach: Wash, dry in a towel for a few mins, use some “toussel me softly” mousse, and then “plop” my hair until I have to leave for work. To do this, I take one of my husband’s white tshirts, put it on the bed in front of me with the bottom facing me. I flip my hair over onto the shirt, wrap the bottom around so the corners meet at the back of my head. Then I flip the neck of the shirt over to the back of my neck, and wrap the sleeves around so they knot around my forehead. Makes for great curls!!

      2. LizB*

        I’ve tried the plopping method and I so wish it worked for me! My problem is, my hair is too short (chin-length layered bob), so while my curls get great definition, they end up sticking out every which way because they’re not quite long enough to weigh themselves down into the right direction. I think if I kept my hair longer it’d make it look awesome.

        1. Zombie Unicorn*

          I have very thick wavy/curly hair (no idea what all this 3b stuff means and am off to google it) and I tried the plopping method once. It made me look like Animal from the Muppets after being caught in a thunderstorm, and my hair felt really weird, wiry and thin. Never again!

          My main tip is to never ever brush or comb your hair while it’s drying.

    30. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Curly is fine, as long as it’s not in your face. I have waist-length curly hair and keep it in a bun, but that’s because I’m not willing to put in the effort to keep it tamed and even if it starts out polite and well-behaved in the morning, by lunchtime it’s frizzy and expansive and shrieking like a fishwife. (Which is not really helped by the fact that it’s Merida red to begin with, and then I dye the bottom 18″ of it in bright greens and purples.) But if you’re willing to do the maintenance on it, keep it clean and reasonably tidy and not-shedding as much as possible, any type of hair can be professional. It’s all in the styling.

    31. Ciela*

      Curly hair has a rating system? Well you learn something new every day.
      I would say that mine is a solid 3B (Google is my friend)

      I have found that brushing and putting it in one braid before I go to sleep does help is be less curly, most days. And then when the humidity is 90% +, it’s like my hair says, “Screw you! I do what I want!”

      But seriously, you do you. And if someone has an issue with your naturally curly hair being “unprofessional”, first they’re the one with the problem, and second, you can always tell them, “This is the hair God gave me.”
      I have used that a few times to people who just didn’t like my hair (WTF?) and it shut them all up pretty quick.

    32. Samwise*

      Curly hair better not be unprofessional, because the only way I don’t have a mop is if I go full Sinead O’Connor.

      As long as it’s not unkempt, curly hair is fine. If it’s long, you can put it up if you need to look super polished. If it’s short, find a really good hairdresser who understands short, curly, professional, and don’t skimp on how often you get your hair done.

    33. NW Mossy*

      I’ve been wearing my hair curly at work for about 5 years now, and it’s been totally fine.

      The only negative ramification I can think of was an incident so bizarre that my hair’s involvement is really tangential to the main issue. I was sitting in a 1:1 meeting with my boss with her office door open. During our meeting, the head of our division walked by and saw me. He stopped, reached out and picked up a curl, said something complimentary about it, and left. Meanwhile, my boss and I were too dumbstruck to say anything, because who does that?! Weird AF.

    34. Wavy Haired Girl*

      I’m a 2b/2a wavy/curly type (white lady), and extremely susceptible to frizz. I have found that silicone products are too heavy, and don’t let the curls form. I use Fekkai’s Glossing Cream (available at Target/drug stores) and air dry on curly days. It’s a great texture and light-weight. It’s not fully humidity-proof, but it’s pretty good. And I’ve never found anything that can perfectly beat humidity AND allow my waves to form.

      As for professionalism, of course curly hair isn’t unprofessional. That being said… if I am headed into a setting where I need to FEEL really professional and put together, I straighten my hair. It’s a control thing, for me. When I straighten it, I have a much better idea of what my hair is doing and will look like at any given moment. When I go natural, with my particular hair, sometimes it’s super-cute, and sometimes it’s wild and crazy. So, it’s a feeling of control thing for me.

      Oh, and I splurged on the Dyson hair dryer this year. Worth it! Dries and straightens my thick mane so much faster.

    35. AliceBD*

      I also have hair that is 2b/2c-ish. I exclusively wear it curly and always have. It’s also very short (varying from 90s power hair short-looking when dry to still being no longer than my chin even wet) so I can’t pull it back or disguise it at all. Just figure out what works for you and do it.

    36. Kuododi*

      Most of my adult life I had waist length, thick curly hair. I never had issues with it being perceived as “unprofessional.” I did cut it up to a shoulder length bob while I was on contract with the military. I then had it cut short (modified pixie) about 5yrs ago. My only real issues with long hair was during the summer when I felt as though I had a fur wrap around my head and neck. I was very careful to use anti frizz products to keep the hair in check.

  9. Bus Rider*

    My city has a small (but serviceable) public transit system. Fine to get downtown, challenging to get anywhere else. It’s not widly used by people in my office, and over all driving is king in this town.
    I HATE driving. I’m not comfortable doing it, I don’t like it, and I purposely chose my apartment so that I don’t have to drive to work. (I’m actively working to get over this/get more comfortable, but it’ll take time)
    In a heavily car dependent town, how would you react to someone saying “I don’t drive so your office is inconvenient for our meeting, but I’m happy to host at our office”?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      What kinds of meetings are these? If you’re the vendor and you’re meeting with a client, then I think you have to figure out an alternative (like Uber) to get to them, or you can suggest a lunch meeting if that’s do-able, though I imagine it’s not if you have materials to show. You can always ask them to come to you– “We prefer to do the initial meeting in our office” might work–but you should have a plan B. If you’re the client and they’re the vendor, then you prefer to have the meeting in your office.

      If it’s more of a collaborative thing, then I think you can ask to do the meeting at your office, but be prepared if it’s inconvenient for them, too, and you have to compromise with an alternative.

    3. M. Albertine*

      I was in the same situation for a long time (not that I didn’t drive, but parking downtown was expensive and public transportation was extremely more convenient). I put it as “I am dependent on public transportation during the day, would you be willing to come to my office?” and most people were happy to, or to meet at a downtown-adjacent place with parking that I could still walk to.

      1. Ihmmy*

        Yep, this is how I would phrase it initially (assuming this isn’t a scenario where you’re a vendor trying to convince them to come to you), and otherwise get a taxi or an Uber and expense it. That said, meetings off site aren’t a common occurrence for my job, and most of the ones that do take place have multiple attendees and one of them has a car.

        I definitely wouldn’t slag on driving as a bad choice or their office as being inconvenient though. Centre the behaviour around your own using public transport during the work day like M. Albertine suggested

    4. Alianora*

      I think you’ll need to use a taxi or ridesharing service sometimes. In my experience, there are some politics around who comes to who, it isn’t as straightforward as just deciding based on mutual convenience.

      If you’re the one requesting a meeting or if you’re more junior (like an associate trying to meet with a director) it wouldn’t come across well to insist that they come to you. Saying, “I’m happy to host” is fine, but saying, “I don’t drive so your office is inconvenient for me,” would make me (as an administrative assistant managing executives’ calendars) think, “Well, that’s really on you to solve.”

      Even if it is a mutually beneficial meeting between peers, you’ll still probably have to compromise sometimes just on the basis of scheduling. Often, my manager has time for a meeting, but not time to travel back and forth.

    5. LQ*

      It depends. If a vendor wants me as a client to come to them I’m mostly going to be annoyed. If it’s a partner I’m going to be much happier to go to them.

      As someone who doesn’t even have a car and has to either public transit or lyft everywhere (or walk, lots of walking) I try to be aware of this. But if it’s a Meeting that’s a big deal and requires a bunch of set up and you’re offering to do all the scheduling and room set up and you’ve got space for it? Yeah, I’m going to be fine with it. Make sure you consider parking (BIG HUGE deal if you are in a car town) you need to have enough of it for everyone, ideally cheap/free. Also how many people from each place are going to the meeting .

    6. Psyche*

      Are you requesting the meeting or are they? I think if you are requesting the meeting, you really need to make it as convenient as possible for them. If they are requesting it then you can suggest your office when making the appointment. I don’t drive either and I realize how hard it can be sometimes, especially in the middle of the day. If public transportation won’t work, you probably need to look into taxis or rideshare options.

    7. CatCat*

      I’d be like, “I don’t drive either so….”

      I also hate driving. Car commuting kills my soul. I think the solution here is for you to Uber/Lyft/taxi if those are options.

      1. ChachkisGalore*

        I agree with this! I’d leave off the reason, because people can be super judgey about non-drivers in a driving centric area. I would just be apologetic and ask them to meet at your office. At most I might say something like “Apologies, but meeting at my office would be much more convenient for me – would that be possible?”

    9. Antilles*

      One alternative that’s always worth considering (even if there’s no transportation issue) is whether an actual face-to-face meeting is truly necessary. Sometimes it really can be a lot easier to meet in person…but you can often ‘meet’ just as effectively with a conference call and screen sharing.
      This also has nice sides benefits – not wasting 30 minutes each way on travel, letting you mute the call and do other things if there’s a portion that’s not relevant to you, etc.

    11. Bagpuss*

      I think it depends on the meeting.
      – Vendors – I would normally expect them to come to me
      – More senior person within my org. – I would expect to go to them
      – peers / people at other organisations – tyopically would expect meetings to alternate or be split in a broadly equal way.
      – meetings involving multiple people – would normally expect them to be held someone central / convenient to all participants
      – clients – very dependent on the work you are doing. I am a lawyer and I always meet my clients in my office, (unless they ned a home / hospital visitdue to disability or health issues) but I deal with divorce and family law so clients are seeing me in a personal capacity. If I worked in Corporate Law I suspect I would have more meetings in the client’s offices, and in that scenario, if they are paying me, I would go to them if that is their preference.

      One thing to consider is that it is almost always more convenient to host, and it is itypically more expnsive (either personally, or for your employer, or both) to travel to metings, as as well as any actual travel costs, you are spending longer out of the office – if you are billing that time to a clint, thy mi9ght not be happy at the increased costs if you are always the one travelling, and if not, your employer might not be happy.

      So I if I were meting with you, I would be OK with coming to your office for some metings, but if we were going to be meeting more than once, I would probably push back and not be OK with them all being there.

    12. MoopySwarpet*

      It depends on if I want the meeting or you want the meeting. If the meeting is for your benefit, I would be annoyed at having to do all the driving. If the meeting is for my benefit, I wouldn’t mind making it convenient for you. If it’s mutually beneficial and/or mandatory (meaning neither of us wants to do it), if it’s a one time meeting, I’d probably grumble to myself and/or those close to me, but accommodate you. If there are several, I’m not going to be a fan of doing all the driving.

      Other factors are parking, drive time, if I’m being reimbursed for those things by my company, etc.

      Part of that is that I also hate driving in certain areas/directions/times of day.

      In general, you might be ok if they know upfront that’s the way it is AND you let them choose the day/time and make your schedule more flexible to offset their driving. (Don’t insist on 8am or late afternoon meetings, for example.)

    13. CM*

      I actually think this is an issue you need to work out with your manager and not the people you’re meeting with. Like, in some cases, it’s fine to propose that people meet at your office instead of theirs, but if the normal expectation is that people from your office go on calls to other locations, and you don’t drive, you and your manager need to figure out how you’re going to get there.

      Ideally, that means your company is paying for a taxi, but it’s possible the answer will come back that having a car and a driver’s license is a requirement of the position. In either case, the answer shouldn’t ever be “You have to pay for your own taxi,” and, if you’re expected to drive your own car, there should be some provisions about reimbursing you for gas and miles, and maybe some insurance paperwork, depending on the situation.

      But if this is something that comes up more than once or twice a year, I don’t think you can just rely on inviting people to your office without having a more solid plan for how you can get to their offices.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. Only once did I say something. I was Not Well at all and needed to meet with a higher up who was not in my building. I put a lot of energy into apologizing for my inability to drive. She agreed to travel to see me. When she arrived I thanked her profusely. (I do ordinarily drive so this made it hard as I had to explain I was Not Well.)

        Have a work-a-round figured out and perhaps have a plan B, also. It’s not the non-driving that is a big deal, it’s the lack of having a plan of what to do that is off-putting to some folks.

        From the life side of the story, my elderly friend just gave up her driver’s license. And she could do so quite comfortably because she has a plan for how to get herself almost anywhere. She has spread her plan out over 6-7 people. This way one person is not doing all the driving. She also walks to places that are nearby which gives her more flexibility.
        There’s a parallel for work here. Keep your eyes wide open at work, perhaps there are times where you could hitch a ride with someone or you could use a ride/walk combo. Involve more than just one or two people. This way you never have to worry about leaning too hard one someone. Offer gas money, or offer to pay for coffees/snacks/etc. Even if their gas is paid for by the company, they are still doing the work of driving. If say you recognize that driving is also work, people might be delighted by your awareness and be more likely to be available the next time. Don’t let your reasons why you don’t drive get to you, there is a wide variety of reasons why people don’t drive. When my friend filled out her form for a state ID instead of a license, she had to say why she was giving up her license. She wrote one word on the blank line after the question: “age”.
        As you are working through your driving issues, think of my elderly friend and realize we don’t do something (like driving) forever and ever, we do it just for a while.

  10. AliV*

    I’m so tired of doing the jobs of half my coworkers so I can get my own work done well. And then to have my feet held to the fire constantly about performance metrics. Wish my colleagues had to go thorough the same.

    1. Construction Safety*

      The age of Uber & Lyft has arrived.

      We have e-scooters here, I wouldn’t recommend them for non-bike riders.

    2. 2 Cents*

      I could’ve written this post 5 months ago. That’s why I left OldJob. I was held to stricter standards than half of my coworkers and regularly had to do their work on top of my own—but they got the credit for it. I left and haven’t looked back (and got a 33% pay increase too).

      1. AliV*

        Ugh. Congrats on the new job!

        Basically I just try to say as little as possible in meetings, for fear I’ll blow my top.

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Oh man, I feel this. I hate that competent employees usually end up with more work and incompetent ones just get to coast. Im in a similar place right now and it sucks. You have all my sympathy, AliV.

      2. Bring Hawkeye to the Details*

        Me too! Not the feet to the fire part, thankfully. My immediate boss is fantastic and knows what I do. But the powers that be do not understand how hard it is to do my job with the crap info I get from the other department. They’ve been looped in, they’ve been told, they’ve been cced on emails and admit there’s a real problem. But they will not do anything about it. I know they don’t want to lose me, and that was the reason for my raise and promotion recently, but they’re kidding themselves if they think I won’t leave because of that. It wasn’t enough of a bump for my new, added duties that, btw, I don’t have time to do on top of my continued duties from before (all of them. Literally.). I WANT to stay, but I can’t put up with the nonsense much longer.

      1. AliV*

        Basically I have to:
        – track the work of multiple coworkers (that I should be able to trust to do their jobs)
        – let them know when they screw up
        – then CONTINUE to track to ensure they actually fixed the error.

        But I’m the one who has to sit in multiple meetings about goals, have my performance metrics tracked and shared, etc etc.

        2. LGC*

          So basically, you’re the boss without actually being a manager. Lovely. (Or as someone eloquently put a year ago or thereabouts, they gave you the management bathrobe without the fuzzy management slippers.)

          You have my full permission to ghost your company because that is some HOT garbage.

    1. Venus*

      This has been asked quite often, so I might suggest looking at open threads from the past couple months.

    2. Double A*

      Online schools are growing and they don’t just need teachers. I just started a wfh teaching job (high school). Maybe check out the online school situation in your state.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      Some of this information is about 2 years old (found on the AAM site in April 2017), but here are the names that have been recommended on this site in the past. (Since I’m providing some links, this will go into moderation, but you should see this eventually):

      FlexJobs
      We Work Remotely http://weworkremotely.com
      Working Nomads http://www.workingnomads.co
      Jobspresso (for programming/design/marketing jobs)
      Amylynn/Annika http://www.amylynn.org/home/ (Effie who posted this in 2017, added that it lists legit sites for free and has a blacklist of scams)
      Dream Home Based Work http://www.dreamhomebasedwork.com
      rev.com (a LOT of readers have recommended this over the last couple of years)
      National Capital Contracting (this was posted in June 2019 by Lilysparrow, who said it does transcription work, but that most are short assignments with an overnight turnaround)

      1. Gaia*

        Also when looking on more traditional sites, see if there is an option for “Remote” or “Work from Home.”

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yup – I found my current fully remote position on Glassdoor or Indeed, I can’t remember which. It said “Remote Option Available” in the location field along with the company’s HQ location.

  12. Fiona*

    My husband is about to start a boot camp for UX/UI next month. He’s really excited about this new career (he has a background related to tech and a longstanding interest in design) and I was curious if folks could weigh in on any of the following:

    – If you did a UX/UI boot camp, is there any advice you might share? (His program is 6 months). Things you wish you had known?
    – If you currently work in UX/UI, any general advice for starting out in the field?

      1. Fiona*

        Skiing, fjords, universal health care, and one of the highest ranked countries for happiness? Sign us up!

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Tempting… jeg var en amerikansk student i Aalesund….but so many years ago I can barely count to ti now.
        What happens when both members of a couple want to work but only one has the particular technical skill being recruited?

        1. AcademiaNut*

          Depends on the visa laws of the country, and the type of visa.

          Generally, the primary visa holder can bring in a spouse on a spousal visa. They may have the ability to work relatively freely or up to a certain number or hours a week, or they may need to find an employer to sponsor a work visa independently, or they may be prohibited from working at all. If you’re not married, the spousal visa doesn’t generally apply, and you’d need a completely independent visa for residency. The chances of getting a visa sponsored do depend strongly on the type of work you do; the chances of getting a job even with work permission does as well.

    2. The dude*

      A good way to stand out in UX interviews is to know the difference in UX and UI. We get a lot of UI people applying for UX jobs and we ask questions to filter out people who don’t know the difference.

      Not saying you can’t have skills in both, but be very clear on the differences. We’ve said more than once we’ll just hire the next candidate who understood the difference.

      1. Fiona*

        That’s great to know and he’s thought a lot about it – his program makes him choose a path, so he’s most likely going to be focusing on UX. That’s wild that people are interviewing without really distinguishing. Thank you for weighing in!

        1. The dude*

          It’s totally common for people to be proficient in both. It’s even more common for people to think that because they’re proficient in one, they must be proficient in both.

    3. Mainer*

      My husband completed a coding boot camp two years ago. He loved the experience and gained a lot of new skills but unfortunately never landed a developer gig. My advice is to make sure you know your local market for UX/UI and network like crazy. We live about an hour from a major east coast metro and my husband was assured many companies would allow remote work. We found out this was not the case too late. Most major employers want new employees to have way more experience than a 6 month program allowed or want someone that could work in the city full time. Everything worked out and he now designs websites as more of a hobby/side hustle but it definitely wasn’t the ROI we were sold on.

      1. Fiona*

        Thanks, that’s really helpful. We luckily do live in a major city but I don’t actually know what the job market is like, so he should definitely start researching that sooner rather than later. Glad it worked out ultimately for your family!

      2. AcademiaNut*

        That actually makes a fair amount of sense to me. If I were hiring someone trained at a bootcamp I’d want to have them in a closely supervised environment until their programming skills matured. You can learn a lot in six months of intensive study, but it takes time to really master the stuff, and learn good style and practices.

      3. wikikatie*

        Mainer, can we chat via email? I live in NH and have been thinking of taking (probably that same) boot camp.

    4. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Less UI and more all-round development (not through a bootcamp though): I found out that a lot of my interviews asked about GitHub (or other) repos. They also asked about coding I did on the side. It may serve him well to build up some dummy sites for people to page though (or download and look through). It wasn’t super-critical or keeping me out of the running, but they did ask. I think it’s to make sure that the people working in the field are interested and continue to learn.

      Also–for me (semi-big city, not-costal) there were a lot of temp-to-perm jobs on offer and not a lot of full-time employment offers (at least for fresh grads). Might want to check that out locally.

      Finally, Linked in is your friend. I turned that thing on and listed my IT experience and I got all sorts of recruiters bugging me pretty quickly.

    6. voluptuousfire*

      I work in tech recruitment and I see bootcampers all the time. The best way to gain experience is co-ops and internships. Even contract work for a few months builds up experience. Many places won’t hire someone without at least a year’s experience under their belt unless they happen to have junior roles that can be filled by the bootcamp.

      If you’re adjacent to a tech hub, meetups to network. There are usually tons of UX meetups in the evenings during the week. Also if the bootcamp has a designer-in-residence, they’d be a good fit to make friends with. Mentors are always a good thing to have!

      UX/UI Designers are always in demand but moreso for more senior designers vs. those out of bootcamps. Once your husband gets his chops and builds up a rep, he’ll have many options. Software developers and engineers are always needed but I would say from my experience, it’s definitely harder to find product people–designers and managers.

    7. rinkydink*

      I did a 1-year program rather than a bootcamp, but I’ve worked & hired in the field. My advice:
      1. Make sure you’ve researched the program. Do past students (preferably ones you found on LinkedIn, not via the program itself!) think it was worth it? Do the instructors work in industry (so they’re familiar with the real world and can help with networking), or do they just teach? Some programs are good, some aren’t.
      2. Per thread above about student loans – make sure you’ve vetted this career decision and understand the financial implications! Talk to current designers and understand their day-to-day work – does it all sound appealing? Including frequent critique, and importance of good communication skills for justifying designs? Also, first UX jobs pay decently but not a ton (especially without advanced degree or experience – bootcamps are more a foot in the door than a justification for higher pay). Make sure you’re in a position to pay costs given typical entry-level salaries in your city.
      3. While in school, it’s all about building a strong portfolio! Work hard on all projects so you have something good to show future employers. Look at UX/UI portfolios of those successful in the field so you know what a good one contains. Build it out in a website so it’s ready to go when you start looking for jobs. See if instructors know of any paid side-gigs you can do to add in the portfolio.
      4. Also while in school- network! Very important! Go to UX events around town and talk to people. Ask for informational interviews. Ask instructors for connections. Knowing someone significantly increases chances of getting a gig.

      Also, I agree with dude’s comment that UX and UI are different…but most companies treat them as conjoined these days. At minimum, they want UX designers who can still turn out visually appealing work (especially at entry level). But good still to understand both areas.

      Good luck to your husband! It’s an in-demand field and really enjoyable for many people – like all careers, just important to really understand the job so you know what you’re getting into!

    8. ErgoBun*

      I’m a UI/UX manager and the advice in this thread is already quite good! I would also add:

      – Try to build your resume/portfolio with examples of interacting with people and clients. The UX designer is usually the first person who really starts to make the client’s needs come to life beyond sales and requirements gathering. You have to be able to listen and communicate. Look for opportunities to participate in or facilitate design workshops to learn how to partner with people and guide non-designers through the design process (or non-researchers through the research process).

      – Check to see if you have a local chapter of the User Experience Professionals Association (UXPA) for seminars, networking, and general commiseration with others. All my experiences with my local chapter have been great!

  13. Not hungry, just bored*

    How do you avoid mindless snacking when your office is FULL of free food?
    In the morning’s it’s leftover doughnuts and muffins from breakfast meetings, that’s replaced with chips and sandwiches after lunch, all this on top of the healthy seeming (baked-not-fried chips, protein bars, granola, trail mix) snacks we always have available….

    1. Wren*

      I set a timer and don’t allow myself to eat until the timer goes off. Then I get my snack and eat it in the kitchen, never at my desk.

      A mug of tea to sip on at my desk helps fill my need of mindless eating: peppermint tea is especially good for this because it’s good unsweetened, and doesn’t change taste as it cools like some herbal teas do. Good luck!

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        Drinking tea is a great idea! It mimics the hand-to-mouth motion and you’re actually consuming something, but it’s basically calorie free as long as you don’t load it up with milk and sugar.

        I’m partial to flavored rooibos myself. Celestial Seasonings makes a delicious vanilla rooibos that’s great unsweetened. Tazo also has a dessert tea line that I’ve heard good things about.

        2. Sled dog mama*

          This is how I lost 15 lbs in 6 months. I have 4 boxes of herbal tea in my desk and I tried every liquid no calorie sweetener I could get my hands on until I found my perfect snack replacement (I don’t sweeten all my drinks just the black tea which I only drink 1-2 times a day). Now any time I get the urge to snack I get a cup of tea.

      2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        A timer worked for me too: in my case it was a personal rule “not before 3pm”. Often the best things would be gone by then anyway, and I am picky enough to care; and often after 3pm you’re just wanting to get stuff done so you can leave on time, so you don’t want to leave your desk.

        Peppermint tea is great. I’ve recently been drinking a peppermint and liquorice infusion (nothing added) which is smoother.

    3. Emi*

      The only thing that’s ever worked for me, for keeping me from snacking, is chewing gum. And, that’s not always possible, like if you’re on the phone a lot.

    4. Tris Prior*

      We seem to always have a lot of visibly sick people in our office and usually that’s enough to keep me out of the food – at least the stuff that’s not individually wrapped. Thinking about other people sneezing and snotting and coughing all over it kills my appetite right away. So, maybe picture that guy who has the nasty cough touching all of the food after coughing all over his hands and not washing them?

      1. Wren*

        Good advice! I know when I’m thirsty it first feels like hunger until I take time to really listen to my body.

        1. EH*

          Yes! Hunger is often actually thirst. Plus, by the time you’re noticeably thirsty, you’re already dehydrated, so it’s good to get ahead of it. If I have water at my desk I drink it pretty mindlessly, and it helps me to stretch my legs when I get refills (and also when I have to go to the bathroom, heh).

        2. JustaTech*

          I wish my internal thirst indicator were consistent. When I’m in need of water I get (in no order or consistency) thirsty, hungry, filled with rage at the world. That last one is not super helpful for letting me know I need a drink.

    6. Mbarr*

      Oh man, I’m in the same boat at my new company – especially since we get stocked up with fancy ice cream bars every Monday. :(

      Chewing gum, and having my favorite teas seems to help. I have both spearmint gum and bubblemint gum so that I can alternate between refreshing and sweet flavors. And the same goes for my teas – I have my boring green teas, then I also have tangy orange teas to satisfy other cravings.

      Sometimes giving in also helps… I was starving and got myself a package of Ritz crackers that’s combined with “cheese flavored dip” – I haven’t had those since I was a kid. I barely made it through 4 crackers. Apparently they’re gross to my adult palate.

    7. MaxiesMommy*

      Do “if/then”—IF I eat this, then I’ll gain weight. IF I eat this, then I’m taking it from a colleague. IF I eat this, it will jack my blood sugar. Then do “if I don’t/then—If I don’t eat this, I will feel thin and virtuous, I can skip the gym tonite, or whatever. If/then helps me get to the root of food AND money stuff, I’m finding.

      1. yala*

        “If I don’t eat this, I will feel thin and virtuous”

        mm… that seems like a REALLY dangerous line of thought to start falling into.

      2. Toothless*

        Ditto on the “if I don’t” examples being a dangerous line of thinking… thin is not virtuous, and exercise is not a punishment for overeating. “If I don’t eat this, I won’t get a headache or feel sick to my stomach” is usually what my logic ends up being.

    8. !*

      Pretend all the food is covered in bacteria from people touching it before you with their unclean hands.

    9. ThatGirl*

      I work for a company that sells baking and decorating supplies and we have a test kitchen that’s constantly churning out baked goods of all sorts. It’s dangerous. Drinking water and tea and keeping actually healthy snacks in my desk helps some.

    10. Yuan Zai*

      Distraction works for me. If I find myself reaching for those chips or that muffin or whatever, instead I make myself do something on my to do list, check my email, or go check the mail. By redirecting myself, I tend to forget about the food being there.

    11. Parenthetically*

      Counterintuitive advice: give yourself 100% permission to eat any of it, whenever you want it — today, tomorrow, every single day forever, etc.. Don’t try to resist it. Then dig in to whether or not you actually DO want it. Does it sound good? Will it make you feel good? Will it taste as good as it sounds? If so, eat it! If not, don’t!

      Either way, you’ve made an empowered choice based on your own desires, rather than setting up a daily willpower standoff with a bunch of food that will still be there tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.

      And maybe you decide you DO want to eat breakfast, lunch, and snacks from the Free Office Food today, and tomorrow, and the next day, but eventually, if it’s never off-limits and you’re never trying to “resist” it, just deciding if you actually want it, it’s going to lose its pull. Maybe it doesn’t make you feel great. Maybe it’s annoyingly samey and you’d rather bring in more variety from home. Maybe you’re sick of eating packaged stuff. Maybe it’s delicious and varied and fresh, but you find you’re wasting food at home. But the less of a hold it has over you, the more you can make mindful, intentional decisions about it. Let the ubiquity make it boring.

      1. Toothless*

        +1, a lot of free packaged junk food is objectively just not that great and if it’s not forbidden fruit you don’t want to eat it anyways!

      2. LunaLena*

        I agree that counterintuitive solutions can work. I am a type 2 diabetic, so I have to be careful of how much I eat. It sounds incredibly counterintuitive, but I keep my office stocked full of snacks – soda, chips, cookies, etc. – to counter this. It deters me from going out and buying snacks (“I have snacks in my office, I shouldn’t spend money on more,”), and when I’m in my office, knowing that they’re always there and not going anywhere makes me feel like I don’t have to rush out to get something good before it’s all gone. I just try to keep myself busy to keep from thinking about them too much.

        It also helps that they’re far away enough that I have to physically get up and walk across the room to get them, so I have time to think about whether I *really* need to get up and get them. And as a bonus, if me or my office mates are truly so hungry that the hunger is distracting, they’re right there waiting for us.

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I stopped eating at my desk (mostly) after I cleaned out someone’s desk & keyboard who snacked on those healthy options at her desk instead of taking a full lunch. All the crumbs!
      Beyond that I try not to go down to the cafeteria except at specific times of the day. And I try to have a big glass of water before going to any meeting that has snacks provided.

    13. Mid*

      I have a water bottle with a straw (which isn’t the most professional looking thing, I’ll admit) and that helps. I don’t eat at my desk. And chewing gum works well for me, if you don’t have a phone-heavy job. Mint gum means less food cravings, nice breath, and you can chew on something all day long. Also, I eat really big breakfasts, because that’s what my body likes. You could also make smoothies for breakfast and sip on them all day, maybe, f you’re getting genuinely hungry.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Boredom is a huge thing with snacking. If we are snacking we are forgetting the boredom… for a minute. When the chewing stops the boredom is BACK. You might ponder this boredom problem, is it time to move on?
      Going the opposite way, how do you create your own challenges to stifle the boredom?
      How do you lay out your work and your work day? If you have daily goals that you aim for this might help distract you enough.

      I have often told myself that once any job becomes familiar, it will get boring. So what is my response going to be about that boredom? Currently, I have repetitive tasks A through G. I try to get A, B and C done in my first hour. (This means I have to move along and sometimes multi-task.) By my second hour, I want tasks D through F done. I grant myself a half hour to get through task G. There! Now I made it to the interesting part of my day where I can work on bigger, long term stuff that is definitely more interesting.

      I bring my own snacks. Currently, I seem to be really enjoying peas in edible pods. They taste like candy to me, so very sweet. Fortunately, if I want something else, I have to leave my building and drive to a nearby store. This is helpful because most days, I just don’t want to spend the energy doing that.

      Try to help yourself to understand that the real problem is not the food, it is the boredom. Eating something just postpones finding the solution to the real problem.

    15. Not A Manager*

      For myself, I made a rule that I simply don’t eat the free food, ever. It’s pretty easy for me to overlook stuff that’s “not for me” and soon I just don’t notice it or think about it.

      Having to make daily (or hourly) decisions about “am I hungry? Am I hungry for that thing? Will I feel good or bad after eating it?” etc. is distracting and stressful. And I’m not good at answering the questions honestly. When I’m stressed but not hungry, or hungry but not for Twinkies, I’ll just be like F*CK YEAH! and eat the thing and then feel crappy afterward.

      I’m better off planning my own food, eating it when I feel like it, and just ignoring all the other food that’s around.

      I understand that there is a lot of privilege in this, not only about food access but about time management and privacy, so I know it won’t work for everyone.

  14. ThatGirl*

    So, I’ve been with my current company two years, and about 5 weeks ago I changed positions from an external-facing customer service role to a copywriting role that’s much more in line with my long-term career goals.

    Since I left CS the department has basically fallen apart. First I heard my old manager left (presumably got let go), then yesterday my former coworker told me the third woman on our team had been fired. Which, the manager was a bit of a surprise, but the third CW was not – she honestly was not good at her job, rude to customers and didn’t take correction well. But that leaves my poor friend with just her and one temp! The larger department is trying to support her, but they’re not well-trained in things, and it’ll be two weeks before the person filling my old spot starts. Yeesh, what a mess.

    2. Anon for this one*

      Brace for being asked to “fill in” over there – on top of your workload for your new job of course…

      1. Been there done that*

        Yikes – yes I wouldn’t be surprised if they ask you to help out and you’ll end up doing two roles for months with no end in sight. Maybe proactively load your schedule for the next month or two so that you clearly have no time available to help out. And give your current boss a headsup so hopefully they’ll have your back.

      2. ThatGirl*

        Nah, that’s not gonna happen, though I may get consulted on procedure occasionally. I totally changed floors and departments.

  15. DaniCalifornia*

    Guys! I heard back this week from a great job after 4 rounds of interviews (big leadership team) and it’s not just a matter of “if” anymore! I should be getting an offer next week!!! I’m doing a small happy dance and will have the full-on celebration once it goes from 99% to 100% confirmed.

    My problem is at my current toxic job. I’ll be happy to leave. I regularly cry about how bad the situation is. Health has plummeted. Nepotism, good employees punished with more and more work while bad employees are free to do whatever, owner wants to be ignorant of it all and uses our salaries as carrot sticks.

    We just hired a new employee and my supervisor did not hire well (3rd bad hire this year!) and after several months new employee is just not getting it. Everyone has complained to supervisor and they are hesitant to do anything. Ironic that it’s now my bad coworkers complaining about new employee for the same stuff they do. I still have a bit of guilt about leaving. I know I shouldn’t, friends/family have told me I shouldn’t feel guilty at all. But it’s like 10-15% there and when I leave it will not be taken well. In an “Oh $h!t” panicky mode + an angry mode. We made recent changes where I was promised that with hiring an additional employee I would have less do do…but now I have more to do. My coworkers are not trained/refuse to learn so I’ve been there the longest and know 100% of all their jobs. They know about 25% of my job and will be left hanging. There will probably be some hostility during my notice period. Any tips to deal with this? It’s not my fault I couldn’t get them to agree to cross training. I have an extensive OneNote with SOPs, templates, instructions with screenshots ready to go. But anyone have this happen to them before? Mantra’s to silently repeat to myself to not feel guilty in the moment? When I come home raging/crying after a bad day it’s easy to think “So long suckers!” but in the moment at work I tend to deal with it quietly and don’t press back on confrontation. It’s also going to be hard to give notice and say “Oh this was an opportunity I couldn’t pass up” when everyone is sick of new employee/recent changes. I think it will be obvious why I’m leaving as I’ve expressed my frustration appropriately when needed and I was ignored. We are a small office so with me gone they are looking at losing 10% of their staff.

    1. austriak*

      Loyalty at work is a dead concept. That company would lay you off without any regret if they wanted or needed to. It is not your problem how they react. All you can do is give a good last 2 weeks where you take care of things that need to get done and document things for the next person. Don’t feel bad. Focus on the new opportunity.

      1. Mama Bear*

        ^^ This. You care because you’re a good person, but this is not your problem once you leave. I left knowing there was still a bad manager behind me, and the fact that three people quit in one month was NOT my problem – the funny thing was we were all looking but hadn’t told each other so it was like dominos. Anyhow, they learn your job or they don’t. It’s on them if they are unprofessional. It’s on management if they can’t keep people or hire good ones.

    3. Sighhh*

      Yes, sort of. I recently transferred from one branch to a different location in the same company, and even though I was staying in a similar field (with an elevated title), there was a fair amount of hostility and frustration. In my case, I handled an area of our business independently that required specialized knowledge and had really frustratingly terribly training resources. It required you to not just follow a set of directions, but to be able to think critically and make decisions based on deeper knowledge of services and logistics. It was a pain in the ass to train me originally, and though I tried to bring others in when I could, they expressed frustration with how dense the learning was.

      When it was finally announced that I was leaving (our manager made me wait a whole week, giving only 1 week’s notice to my coworkers), there was a lot of grumbling and silent treatment because they knew I was giving them a lot more responsibility. They had the bandwidth, but were comfortable in their routines and liked having a lot of downtime. They’re all great people, and the toxicity of other parts of the office have really been affecting them, so this was just adding more straw to the camel’s back. How I mitigated it:

      -Solid SOPs. Every time I touched my mouse or keyboard to do something that is part of the process, I wrote it in an SOP. Took lots of screenshots, too. Sounds like you have this down, but making it easy to read and saving it in an easy-to-access location is key.
      -Lots of hands on training. Make yourself available for any and all questions, no matter how irritating they are. Make it impossible for anyone to blame you for not training them enough before you left.
      -Leave on a good note. Don’t engage in any office gossip or foolishness before you go. In my toxic workplace, gossip was commonplace. Leave in good graces by redirecting conversations.
      -Don’t talk too much about your new position. People might take it as bragging and feel really resentful. I made the mistake of showing a coworker a photo of my new desk (she asked!) and she was snippy with me for the rest of the day.
      -Let it go. If you do the above, if you prepare all you can, then you’re better than 90% of other folks who leave a job. You’ve done what you can, now it’s time to take care of YOU. I’m still somewhat plagued by the memories of the toxicity in my old position, mostly because I’m shocked at how wonderful this new one is, even though they’re in the same company. Don’t let these folks live rent-free in your head. Help how you can, and enjoy the new position!

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Thank you for sharing! I am definitely keeping mum on the new role. The only thing I plan to say is that it’s geared more towards my degree on working on and they reached out to me first (both are technically true lol) even though I’ll still be in admin and I was heavily searching for jobs at the time.

      2. DaniCalifornia*

        Also “Don’t let these folks live rent-free in your head” that is amazing advice! I will keep that written down on my mirror. Also glad you are now in a better branch!

    4. Trek*

      Picture what would have happened if you suddenly could no longer work or could not come to work for six weeks? In those situations they would not have had any warning and possible not have the guides available to access. You are now giving them two weeks notice to prepare for your departure. If they become difficult and make comments respond back cheerfully ‘I’m glad I was able to give two weeks so everyone can prepare.’ If they act like this is not enough time focus on it being standard. If they continue being difficult use Allison’s script ‘I want to finish my notice period but if we can’t agree to be civil then I will need to make today my last day.’

    5. Dreamer*

      Honestly, when i was in a similar boat it helped just to know i was leaving. I smiled more and dealt with stuff that was weighing on me with a bright smile because ‘it not my problem after these 10 days’. Just remember that you do not need to deal with outright harassment. 2 week notices are nice to give but not at the detriment of your health.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That’s how I always deal with leaving a job, too. I’m suddenly happy again and full of lightness, I’m smiling, and things that annoyed me just roll off my back at that point because it’s no longer my problem.

    6. Nope, not today*

      It sounds like you’ve done everything you can to get your job to deal with the issues in the office – when you start feeling guilty, just remind yourself of that! You’ve tried to get them to cross train. You have documented everything you can to help them. The decisions made that make the job unbearable are not your decisions. They’ve made their bed; you tried to help them and they have refused to take any action. You can’t help someone, or an employer, if they refuse to listen. You’ve tried looking out for them and now its time to look out for yourself. Good luck with finishing things out there and in the new job!

    7. Practice a poker look*

      >> It’s also going to be hard to give notice and say “Oh this was an opportunity I couldn’t pass up” when everyone is sick of new employee/recent changes.

      This is just in your head. Practice a few times on how you’ll give notice and how you’ll respond to comments. And no need or reason to feel guilty! Maybe your current colleagues might be motivated by you to leave as well.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        + 1 on the motivation front

        Three months after I left my last company, my cubemate also left for a new job, lol.

    8. cmcinnyc*

      Guilt is for when you did something wrong. You don’t like this job; you got another one. When you hear that someone isn’t happy in their current job, looks for another one, and gets it, do you think, “Wow, I didn’t realize Jane was such a terrible person!” Or do you think “Good for Jane!” or “If Jane can do it, I can do it.” If it’s OK for Jane, it’s OK for you.

    9. Filosofickle*

      I’ve always felt a little guilty for leaving jobs, and often sad even when the job sucks. I don’t understand why, but I always do! But the moment I’m gone, the relief and happiness at being out kicks in and all the guilt has just evaporated. Hopefully that will happen for you, too!

    10. Samwise*

      Sucks to be them, doesn’t it.

      It’s easy for me to say, don’t feel guilty, but…you have no reason to feel guilty. All of this is on them, they had plenty of opportunity to do better and THEY CHOSE NOT TO.

      Go forth and be happy. You can feel sorry for them, but personally I would not.

    11. Wishing You Well*

      If, after you give notice, your work environment becomes too hostile, AMA has great advice on how to cut your time short and physically leave early. Sometimes people have to do this to preserve their mental health.
      I hope your departure is easier than you anticipate.

    12. Zephy*

      First: Congrats on getting out!

      Not your circus, not your monkeys. This company obviously doesn’t care about you, so you don’t owe them any more consideration than “my last day will be x.” Management can feel how they feel about it, it’s not your problem. What are they going to do, fire you?

    13. Not So NewReader*

      It’s two weeks. Think. It’s two weeks. Us human beings are awesome, we can do anything if we know there is a time limit.

      So here you have a situation where NO one is pleased with you. Your cohorts, your boss, etc. are not happy with you. You know what this means right? You have FREEDOM. See, no matter what you do they will be unhappy. This means your target has shifted to JUST YOU. Are you happy with your work? Do you feel you have been as fair as possible given the givens? Can you sleep at night if you think about how you handled this transition?

      I have had need to ponder the question, “What happens when a boss and cohorts do not express appreciation for our work?” Appreciation has to come from some where else. The easiest place is inside ourselves and finding our own appreciation for our own efforts. Tell yourself, “I am handling things in such a manner that ten years from now I will still be able to say that I did my best.”

      I LOVE it when people tell others how they SHOULD or SHOULD not feel. /Snark.

      Emotions are just that, emotions. And it is normal to have opposite emotions all mixed together in the course of one day. You feel guilty because you are a SINCERE PERSON. Only a cold-hearted beast would have no pangs here. But they do not deserve your sincerity or your concern. Ironically, I am going to tell you that you need to keep that part of you. If you lose it then you become one of them.
      So when you feel guilty, feel the feeling.
      When you feel anger, feel the feeling.
      Then tell yourself that you are a normal, thinking human being.
      The quickest way out of an emotion is to address it head-on.
      As you feel yourself go up and down on this rollercoaster, remind yourself that this is the exact reason why you are leaving. Jobs should not require this much emotional energy just to get through the workday.

      It’s two weeks. Practice picturing yourself at your new place. They are nice. And oh my, they work! And you are happy there. Keep working on this picture in your mind’s eye.
      Come back and tell us how the new place is.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Only a cold-hearted beast would have no pangs here.

        No. I have never in a million years felt guilty about leaving any of my jobs, and I’m not remotely cold-hearted (though I sometimes wish I was). I’m pragmatic – if something is no longer working for me or my life, it’s time to move on regardless of how others feel. They’re not living my life for me after all.

        1. Anonymous Celebrity*

          Same here. No guilt at all, even when the job I was leaving was a decent job. Because it’s a JOB, not a love affair, or a best friend, or a marriage. It’s labor (intellectual labor, but that’s still labor) in exchange for money. Period.

          Does that mean I won’t have warm/friendly relationships with folks at work? Of course not. But in the end, it’s just a job, and that’s always been how I’ve viewed it. When I need to leave, I leave. And that’s it. No guilt. I may miss some folks at the job I’m leaving, but that’s a whole different story.

    14. Warm Weighty Wrists*

      Congratulations!
      In situations like this, when I am moving away from a responsibility that should never have been mine, my mantra is “my first responsibility is to myself”. Weigh any requests/demands you encounter during your notice period against this standard–the question is not how much it would help them, but whether it would harm YOU. If it would stress you out, make you unhappy, cost you late nights at work, delay your start date… it’s a no. They will almost certainly try to make you feel that you are abandoning your responsibilities to them, but you are not. You are honoring your most important responsibility–to yourself.

  16. Toxic waste*

    I started a new job 4 months ago. When I started, I worked some over time, so my boss said that I can take a half day when I need to. Well, the holiday weekend is coming up and I asked boss a week ago if I could take my half day before the long weekend. Boss said yes.

    Today I was in a meeting with boss and “Fergus”. They were going over the plans for the week. I reminded boss that I was leaving early that day. Fergus looked surprised. He then asked what my plans were for Friday and I told him. He then said, “That’s not a good enough reason to take off.”

    I didn’t know what to say. He said it in front of boss and boss said nothing. I was shocked, so I just sort of said, “Oh really?” Fergus then said that he was “just joking”.

    First of all, Fergus is a co-worker, not my boss. Second of all, what constitutes as a “good reason”? Third of all, other people are also taking off that day, so why single me out?

    Another co-worker said that Fergus is just jealous because he can’t have off, but still. I’m sick of these comments. I’ve dealt with stuff like this at previous jobs and I never know how to handle it. It catches me off guard and I don’t know what to say. I also don’t want to say some things that come to mind because I don’t want to get in trouble or get fired, lol.

    It’s not the first time that he’s said something snarky towards me. Now, I’ve been in toxic environments, so maybe that’s just triggering for me, but the things that Fergus says bothers me and the fact that boss does nothing about it is upsetting.

    Is 3 months too soon to leave early from a new job? Am I missing something here? Has anyone else experienced this? What did you do? Any input or advice would be appreciated.

    1. Armchair Analyst*

      Whoa there!
      Have you mentioned it to Fergus? “Hey Fergus, I know you said you were joking about me not having a good enough reason to take a day off, but that’s a touchy subject to me because of past workplaces. I don’t deal with snark and sarcasm well, so if we could play it straight for awhile, I’d appreciate it. You seem like a good guy and I’d love to grab a coffee or something together so you can tell me more about your time here at this office, if you want. If not, that’s cool, too, we can get along professionally, but just please know I’m sensitive to your sense of humor.”

      1. TechWorker*

        I mean from this conversation about the last thing I’d want to do is submit myself to a coffee with Fergus but I guess that’s a mature way of dealing with it…

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Cut the part out about inviting him anywhere – he’s annoying and you don’t like him, so you shouldn’t have to subject yourself to spending time in his presence that you aren’t being paid for.

          That said, definitely tell him to stop making snarky asides to you about your work or your time off, especially in front of your boss. You should not be contemplating leaving a job over one person whose only sin you’ve mentioned is not knowing how to read a room.

    2. Beryl*

      This sounds like it has everything to do with Fergus and nothing to do with you.
      You’re not missing something; Fergus is a snarky coworker. Unless Fergus’s conversation has something to do with your work, assume that Fergus has their own stuff to deal with that they like taking out on others. You often cannot do anything that will change behaviour like this.

    3. Blue Eagle*

      A co-worker once told me to never overshare about time off. When someone (even the boss) asks about what you are going to do with time off just reply – some family stuff that needs to be taken care of. Even if the family stuff is you going on vacation with your own family – or just you by yourself because you are your own family.

      1. Evil HR Person*

        +1 so much this! I wouldn’t have answered him, or answered what Alison always says to say: “What a strange question to ask me about my time off?,” implying that it’s none of his business because it’s your time away from work and he’s not the boss of it, or of you. Don’t make rash decisions because of one jerk.

        2. Double A*

          I think it would be weirdly hostile to respond to an inquiry about your weekend with, “What a strange question” because it’s… not a strange question? It’s totally normal small talk. It was Fergus’s response that was weird, so it seems reasonable to respond to his comment with, “Oh, I wasn’t looking for commentary about how I use my free time” or “Oh, I thought we were just making small talk.”

          That being said, reacting to a snarky comment by thinking about job hunting seems disproportionate. The comment was pretty clearly about Fergus’s issues. OP, this may seem like an overreaction to your overreaction, but does your new employer have an EAP? If you come from a toxic environment, it really might worth working through some of that with a counselor. It’ll help you re-calibrate your sense of normal and ability to differentiate run-of-the-mill office BS (e.g. occasional obnoxious comment from coworker) from actual toxic patterns.

          That being said, hooray for escaping a toxic office and for having fun weekend plans!

          1. Freebird*

            Toxic waste wasn’t talking about quitting. They were asking whether it’s too soon (3 months) to ask to leave early for the day. :)

      2. Mama Bear*

        Agreed. While a lot of people do share, because they’re being friendly, it’s also perfectly fine to simply say your boss approved the time off and all he needs to know is that you won’t be there. I wouldn’t quit just yet, but I’d start trying cut Fergus off when he gets into snark mode.

    4. Turtlewings*

      Thinking of leaving because of one kinda stupid comment from a coworker seems over the top. Even if Fergus is being a consistent annoyance, it’s better to find a way to deal with that (ideally, to make him stop) than to immediately jump ship. After all, you’re just as likely to have an annoying coworker at your next job.

      As far as the comment itself, a cool and somewhat bewildered “Thanks for your opinion,” said in a tone that communicates ‘that was weird for you to say since you get no vote in my decisions,’ and going right back to the work conversation without letting him continue, might have been a good reaction.

        1. TechWorker*

          Yep this was my read too, they’re just saying ‘is it weird to leave early when I’ve only been there 3 months’ – to which the answer is ‘absolutely not’ – your boss ok-ed the time off and frankly it’s precisely none of Fergus’ business what your reasons are.

      3. stitchinthyme*

        Doesn’t sound like it’s just one comment: “It’s not the first time that he’s said something snarky towards me.”

        Seems like it’s time to stand up to Fergus. Next time he makes a snarky comment, address it in the moment, politely. “Excuse me?” is a good start. To the above comment, I’d probably have said something like, “And since when do you get to decide what’s a good reason for me to leave early?”

    5. Chocolate Trinity*

      My recommendation is to next time, just say “Well, this is what I like to do with my time off and I will be sticking to those plans” and be super matter-of-fact about it, like his opinion makes no difference and that you stand by what your plans are. It’s your time off that you earned to do with what you please.

    6. DaniCalifornia*

      Would replying “What an odd thing to say?” with a tone of half cheery/half wonderment to him work? And then changing the subject. I know that Alison has suggested that script before for rude or unwanted comments.

    7. Psyche*

      Next time you can just give him a confused look and say “Why does it matter what I am doing? I go the time off approved.” If he pushes you can follow up with “In the past you have been very judgmental about how I use my time off which I don’t appreciate so I no longer feel comfortable sharing my plans with you.”

    8. Princess Scrivener*

      Next time, brag on your boss… “Why YES, yes, I do have the *best* boss, who looks out for me, and ensures I get time off when I need it.”

      1. MaxiesMommy*

        And Boss not reprimanding Fergus seems to mean “Fergus? No one pays any attention to Fergus!”

    9. EA in CA*

      As long as your boss has already approved it, there is nothing more that Fergus can contribute to the conversation. Whatever the reason for time off, it was approved and owed by Boss, Fergus’ opinion is just that, his opinion. I think you feel targeted because of your past history and that you are new. There is heighten awareness around you that you need to make sure you perform well and to gain the respect/recognition of your coworkers as you establish yourself within a group of new people. Fergus could be the office jerk, lacks social skills, has a weird sense of humor, or is targeting you because you are the newest, and easiest, person to focus on.

      But why leave just because of one person? You’ll always find that in every job there will be someone you don’t like or doesn’t like you, or a task/responsibility that you don’t like. Is that really worth leaving an otherwise decent or liked job? Boss didn’t address it because he doesn’t think that this is all that big a deal, especially since the time off was already approved by them. You are seeing things through a very skewed lens due to your past experience.

      My advice is to not share any personal details with Fergus from here on out. The less info he is provided, the less fuel for him to use. it sets a boundary to keeps his snark more contained and gives you more power over the situation. Keep your interactions with him neutral, as a matter of fact, and entirely work related while being civil. If this were me, I would say all responses to his snark with a big smile on my face. It totally disarms them and makes them feel uncomfortable.
      Me: Oh I am leaving early Friday, remember?
      Fergus: *surprised* Really? What for?
      Me: I’m leaving early to go llama riding with my family.
      Fergus: That’s not a good enough reason to leave early.
      Me: *BIG SMILE* Oh really? Is that a problem?

      2. Parenthetically*

        Even less info.

        Fergus: *surprised* Really? What for?
        Me: Nothing major, now did you want to take a look at these TPS reports before I go?

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Me: Oh I am leaving early Friday, remember?
        Fergus: *surprised* Really? What for?
        Me: It’s comp time because of the OT I worked to get the new product out last month.

      4. Baru Cormorant*

        Agree about not sharing information. I think you should either take this tactic–no info, totally neutral, let your natural shock trigger your wording but not your emotion.
        Fergus: That’s not a good enough reason to take off.
        OP: Really? I think it is. (Or: Boss thinks it is.)

        Fergus: I would never take off work for that.
        OP: OK, well that’s your choice. I’m still going to be out Friday.

        Or, kill him with kindness and spin it into a compliment. I use this with bosses and other people who do this kind of performance about how much they need you, or how hard they work, or otherwise are hard to push back on.
        Fergus: That’s not a good reason to take off.
        OP: Well I think it’s really generous of our boss to trust us to manage our own schedules! It’s so important to have a good work-life balance!

        This is especially good for comments like:
        Fergus: I don’t know how we’re going to handle everything while you’re gone.
        OP: But you’re so talented at llama grooming! I know I can trust this to your capable hands.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      Fergus is being a jerk.
      “He then asked what my plans were for Friday and I told him.” WHY would you tell him? Don’t share that.
      Maybe he really WAS joking (some people have weird humor like that) and wanted to razz you by sounding all serious, “sorry, vacation is cancelled… NOT! yuck, yuck” But it can come off as super jerky if you don’t know the other person well (says a person with that type of snarky humor).

      Why boss didn’t say anything: Could be boss is fine with snarky humor? Could be boss is waiting to see how you handle interpersonal relationships? Could be boss didn’t think such banter is a big deal? Could be the whole place is sexist? (but let’s not go there yet ok?). I mean, managers generally won’t intervene in this type of banter unless it rises to it getting heated or people getting upset.

      But basically, you let it go, or speak to Fergus directly that you don’t get this type of “snark humor.” Truth is Fergus probably was envious that you asked off Friday and thus get a longer weekend and he didn’t. At least for now assume it was that and not read anything deeper into it. Try to take a step back and think about it without allowing the PTSD from old toxic job.

    11. Oh No She Di'int*

      I think coming up with witty comebacks is all well and good. The problem is that next time he won’t comment on your time off, it’ll be something else. And then you’ll be equally caught off guard.

      You have two underlying problems:

      1. Fergus does not respect you. I think the best way to deal with this is directly with Fergus. I would go to him and say in a very casual, non-confrontational environment, something like: “Hey Fergus, I’m excited about us getting to work together. I think we could work out a great partnership. Something you said the other day really bothered me though. (Describe the comment.) I know you said you were just joking, but it’s really important to me that we respect each other and that I can trust you not to make me look bad in front of my boss. And I won’t do the same to you. Can we agree?”

      2. Your boss may be a wimp. I say “may” be. It’s possible that it’s too soon to say. She might just be more of a hands-off type who wants to see if you two work it out between yourselves before getting involved. Either way, I think it’s worth keeping an eye on to see if she’ll have your back when things go sideways in the office, which they inevitably do at some point.

      1. Observer*

        Well, really the OP needs to come up with a basic template for Fergus’ snarky comments about stuff that’s none of his business.

        I think that there are some good suggestions that work well for a large number of situations “Why would you say that?” “well, it’s been approved” “this is not up for discussion.” “I don’t recall asking your opinion” are all possibilities that work with a very wide variety of situations.

      2. LilySparrow*

        My first assumption wouldn’t be that the boss is a wimp, but that the boss has a healthy sense of perspective.

        Fergus’ comment didn’t require a reply from the boss because it was a blatantly stupid and irrelevant thing for him to say. So the boss ignored him.

        Now, it might have been nice for the boss to check in on OP and maybe notice that OP was looking for guidance. But I think OPs past bad experiences have resulted in a very strong reaction that’s out of the norm. Many perfectly fine bosses might not expect or pick up on OPs need/desire for intervention here.

        Not that she’s waiting to see if they work it out, but it might not occur to a lot of bosses that there is anything to work out.

    12. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I wouldn’t jump ship after three months because of one coworker.

      Every workplace has a Fergus. Just ignore the comments. “That’s not a good enough reason!” [beat] “Where are we at on the teapot redesign?” Or pivot. “That’s not a good enough reason!” “I’m still leaving early. So, where are we at on the teapot redesign?”

      As for your boss not doing anything, there’s no need based on the information here. If your boss gets involved, it makes this a bigger deal than it is. I’m guessing Fergus is known for being snarky and your boss probably didn’t even notice the comment (this happens when you work with someone like that – you just learn to tune that out). The time off was already approved. Now, if Fergus says something truly heinous and your boss doesn’t get involved, that’s a bigger issue.

      1. Double A*

        Yeah, isn’t that the kinda point of the name “Fergus”? Like, when we use that name in posts it’s to indicate it’s the office “that guy”?

        The fact that you’re already calling this guy Fergus is good! It means you’ve kind of mentally ID’d him as the office Fergus and you can treat him accordingly (i.e. politely, professionally, but somewhat distantly and don’t take anything he says personally. You can mentally eye-roll at stupid comments he makes, because he’s Fergus).

    13. CatCat*

      Seems like a situation where you should start dropping an icy, “Wow.” after Fergus drops a snarky comment and then either walk away immediately or just be quiet and let it get real awkward.

      1. Clisby*

        To me, it seems like a situation where LW should be saying, “Oh, I’ll be enjoying my time off.” The End.

    14. Space Cadet*

      “This is when you learn you are my coworker, not my boss”
      (No, don’t say that out loud)

    15. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Pump the brakes!

      I know that you’re coming from a toxic environment and you’re triggered right now. So I want to say this really nicely but you don’t bail over this kind of one-off thing.

      Fergus said something silly and rude but he back peddled, he doesn’t have any control over you, he just has a lip on him. So you just go “LOL well I didn’t frigging ask you now did I, Fergus? Good thing you’re not my boss, bro!” and you move on. [Say that inside your head, just say “I already got it cleared with the boss so it doesn’t really concern you about why I take time off.”]

      Don’t leave for this. You’re going to be running forever if you leave over this kind of thing. Please, take some deep breaths and refocus. Don’t let a random Fergus chase you away unless they’re making a habit of being awful. Even if he’s constantly nitpicking your vacation requests, as long as your boss is on board and gives you no issues with it, Fergus and sit and spin on his throne of lies.

    16. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Yep, been there with the “joke” aimed at me that I didn’t find funny.

      This may just be Fergus (not that it’s not rude). He may be joking, he may be backtracking because he knows he was inappropriate. You just need a script for dealing with him.

      You can use the one above that’s mentioned (about “playing it straight”), or you can put him in the “noncommital answer” column. Whenever he asks you something not work related, basically dodge the question or give him nothing.

      Ex1: “What are you doing after work?”
      “Oh, I’ve got some things to take care of.”
      “What kind of things?”
      “This and that. What’s the status of the TPS reports?”

      Ex2: “Oh, you’re out? What are you doing?”
      “Oh, I took off to get a few things done.” (breezy tone or disinterested tone)
      “Oh? Like what?”
      “Eh, just a few things. What about XYZ thing we were talking about before this?”
      (or “What about you?” <–even though you probably don't care, it closes the discussion loop)

      Ex3: "Oh, you did that?! Really? I'd never do something like that."
      "Hm. (Flat tone.)" <—you can even skip this line, because the next one works regardless.
      (pause for awkward)
      "Anyway, about x…"

      If he really had an "I shouldn't have said that" moment, you won't need these scripts. If he's a jerk, these are good ways to dodge. Give him no info so he can't start up with his opinions. You can use variations on script 3 for multiple things.

      It's all about returning the awkwardness to sender and being a grey rock (uninteresting, so there's nothing to pick at you about).

      Captain Awkward may or may not help you with scenarios like the above–worth checking out.

      I've also been the person making the awkward joke (not about vacation days, but I thought it was funny and the person didn't really). I made a mental note not to go there again immediately.

      I don't think this is a workplace thing yet–Fergus is just one bullet point. Keep your eyes open and see if there are signs from other people (or from management) that are similar enough for you to know this is the office culture.

    17. Sassy*

      I’ve worked with “Fergus” before. The best thing I could do was focus on the coworkers I liked and ignore him. I’ve responded occasionally with a snarky comment like “didn’t realize you need to approve my time off” or something just to make him aware I didn’t like his B.S. If he says “just joking” say “I don’t care for that type of joke” to shut him down.

      My “Fergus” was a salesperson who was like a snake oil salesperson but brought in tons of sales, so the Owner wouldn’t get rid of him.

      I recommend see what other employees do to deal with him, and see if they get the same vibe off him. If he’s being a jerk to everyone equally, that’s one thing, but if he’s singling you out, then it’s time to look for a new place.

    18. Aquawoman*

      He might just be a sarcastic guy, or he might be the kind of guy who is basically doing the professional equivalent of negging. Either way, he was not genuinely trying to communicate with you about the proper uses of leave. He was either tone-deaf kidding or trying to annoy you. I think you handled it just fine, because he backed off. Don’t take things he says seriously and question yourself about them.

    19. Not So NewReader*

      The way I have seen this one handled is either:
      “Too late, Fergus, the boss approved the time.”
      Or
      “Well, you’re not the boss so there’s that.”

      You can get really crafty and say, “Gee, Boss never indicated it would be a problem.”

      Until you know what you are dealing with in Fergus, a good safe bet is to point everything back to the boss as often as possible.
      “Boss approved my overtime. So if you have any question I guess you will have to talk with him.”
      “Boss just gave me this file with new instructions on how this form is to be completed. I think if you have questions about how I am handling this that you will need to check with the boss.”
      “Boss got me a new chair because I showed him mine was unsafe. You will have to talk to the boss, not me, if you are concerned about your chair.”
      Keep pointing things back to the boss where possible.

      Honestly, you are a day older and a day wiser here. Next time, you can say, “Fergus, I thought you were asking a friendly question so I responded in kind. I did not realize you were asking me as if you were my boss.” Notice here you never answer the actual question or statement.

    20. Observer*

      Your coworker made a stupid comment and you’re already thinking of leaving?

      Look, Fergus was acting like a bit of a jerk, no doubt. But he is NOT your boss, so you don’t need to take his comments on board. Keep in mind that there is no workplace where everyone is perfect all the time and even good workplaces can have jerks.

      Now, if Fergus actually tried to make stay at work, or tried to get your boss to rescind permission, you would have a real issue although I wouldn’t leave over that.

      If you have to work with Fergus, stay polite and professional. You don’t need to justify your plans or “reasons” for taking off to him. Don’t explain why you are taking off, even if he asks, and if it comes up somehow and he expresses an opinion either just don’t answer and explicitly move back to the work topic at hand or tell him that this is not up for discussion.

      But, if you can, avoid him as much as possible.

    21. Reliquary*

      I’d say a snarky thing in reply to any Fergus-like comments, but since that’s not your style, and this seems to be a recurrent issue, I think your greatest weapon is the silent blink and pause.

      Every time Fergus (or another Fergusy sort) says something you don’t appreciate, just turn directly toward them with a complete deadpan expression on your face and blink. Once. Pause. Twice. Pause. Then turn back to your prior conversation as if the Fergusy statement was never made.

      (In extreme cases, you can do three blinks and pauses. But that’s going nuclear.)

  17. panic button*

    I reached out to a person who has been in the field I’d like to go in for an informational interview. I’m not asking for a job or anything, I just want to know if I have any misconceptions and what kind of expectations I should have while pursuing this career.

    So basically it’s super low stakes but I’m so so so nervous. The call is in 3 hours and I can’t focus on my work AHHH!!

  18. Armchair Analyst*

    I am 40, in a large Southern city, with my MBA. Trying to switch careers from a specialist to a more generalist.
    Advice, encouragement (not currently employed, but applying and networking EVERYWHERE!) welcome and appreciated.
    Please tell me summer is hard and it’ll pick up in the Fall! Any references to recruiters are also appreciated — my resume is good, gotten a few interviews, need to write more cover letters…..

    thank you all!!

    1. 867-5309*

      Summer IS slow.

      Also, I’m a generalist and it IS more difficult to find work. Go with smaller companies or startups. They more often need people who can wear many hats.

    2. Filosofickle*

      Agree, summer is the worst to get anything started at work due to all the overlapping vacation outages. I’m really looking forward to September this year! Keep at it. Job hunting takes time.

      I used to be a generalist in my field, and it helped me to reframe it mentally as a specialization in whole-business. That sharpened my story. That thinking didn’t change what I was qualified for, but it kept me from feeling apologetic or or like my skills were vague / less useful. Not everyone can see the big picture or have cross-functional skills, this makes you more useful to the right company or role.

  19. Big Al*

    Long time reader/first time poster.

    How concerning is it if I only have 2 references?

    I’ve worked for the same company for 25 years. I’m kind of poking around at new positions in other companies. My current company has a strict “no reference” rule. No one in my current company is allowed to be a reference for me. I’m not even allowed to be the reference for the interns I had this summer. We are supposed to refer people to HR who will only say “Yes, they worked here from this date to that date.” We are a company with low turnover, so most of my former managers are still here. Consequently, I only have 2 references – a former manager who has retired and a former coworker who works for another company. How much of an issue do we think this will be?

    2. Angelinha*

      I worked somewhere with a strict “no reference” rule. Almost every manager, including the executive director, disregarded it. You probably don’t want to use a reference from your current employer anyway, but in the future I’d consider asking them personally if you think they would speak well of your work.

    3. Nonny-nonny-non*

      My company has exactly the same rule, but usually people are happy to (quietly) ignore it for good employees. If you have a good relationship with any former managers at your company try having a quiet word with them – there’s a good chance they’ll give you a reference anyway.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, this. It’s not a realistic rule. That’s just not how things work. So usually there are people who are willing to quietly talk with others on your behalf. Look around, who seems reality based? Who seems to be in your corner often? These are the people to check with.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      Same boat. Been here 7 years working for the same management team. One guy did leave but he is still working for the overall company so I don’t feel comfortable asking him since I would need to use work connections to get a hold of him. Boss at Old Job retired when I left and hasn’t responded to any LinkenIn messages and I only ever had his work cell number. I worked directly for him my entire time at that company (5 years).
      I have a former colleague from Old Job who was senior to me (but not a direct manager) and 2 people from current job but they are only peers. So far no one has requested references so we’ll see have this goes.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yeah, I’ve never actually seen the “no reference” rule enforced personally either. My toxic boss tried to make that a thing by reminding people constantly that they were supposed to route that all through HR. They just smiled, nodded and gave out references whenever necessary. Just don’t have them call the office, you need to have cell phone numbers.

      If you have a close client or vendor, those are always a good choice. I’ve used clients and they’ve used me before for references.

      Do you have any volunteer work or other professionals that could give you a personal reference if not a professional one? Really if you have 2 professional references, a lot of places won’t really flinch too much with a personal reference as your 3rd.

    6. Blarg*

      I would still list your current manager or whatever and let them deal with the stupid policy. I had an employer like this — refused to do references. I listed two managers at two different sites. One gave a ref and one referred to HR. it was fine. Even the one who referred to HR understood applications demand current supervisors and such as references.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I don’t suppose you kept in touch with any of those former interns did you? Because someone who worked for you would be a very interesting reference. (And if you don’t work there anymore, you can be a reference for them from your next job.)

    8. Just Another Manic Millie*

      My first job lasted less than a year. I was at my second job for more than eleven years. They had a no reference rule. Not that I would have asked anyone to be my reference, as I was still working there while I was looking for my third job. Prospective employers were annoyed with me because I couldn’t provide any references, even though they said that they understood that I couldn’t use my current company. I offered to give them the names of people to contact at my first job, but they refused, claiming that nobody there would remember me. They wouldn’t have been satisfied to get confirmation that I really worked there – they wanted references, and they claimed that they couldn’t get them because no one would remember me. I offered to give them personal references, and they refused, saying that I would give them only the names of people who would say good things about me. The only way I got a third job was that I applied to a company where the CEO was a close personal friend of the CEO of my current company (I had no idea – I didn’t work for the CEO and I didn’t know whom he was friends with), and the CEO at my third job told me that he respected his friend’s judgment, and if I was good enough to work at his friend’s company for over eleven years, then I was good enough to work at his company.

      References are a pain.

    9. Thankful for AAM*

      I really have the same issue. I have worked at current, no-reference employer for 5 years. I worked for 7 years b4 that at a private high school which has moved and been renamed. My direct supervisor there retired and I have lost touch. My coworkers have all moved on and I have lost touch. Even the principal there moved on. I basically have no contact I go for anyone who used to work there.

      So who could be a reference for me? I think my previous supervisor who works in a different department in current company would do it despite the no-reference rule but I do feel your pain.

  20. Amber Rose*

    Coming to work today was a bad idea. The worst idea I’ve had in a while. I’ve been here an hour and half of that has been in the bathroom. I’m not even keeping water.

    My boss is in a meeting with all the big bosses so I can’t ask to go home. Also it’s the Friday before a long weekend and I’m gonna look shady.

    I have way too much anxiety right now and I can’t think straight. Also things that I normally brush off, like my coworker making weird noises while foam rolling her sore glutes and my other coworker whistling and banging on his desk, are driving me to madness.

    Why is everyone in the world so weird, creepy and annoying?!

    1. Purt's Peas*

      Oh my goodness please look shady instead of pushing yourself so hard to stay at work! This sounds like a great opportunity to email your boss and then go home. You’re sick enough that you’re spending that much time in the bathroom, it sounds like it’s spiking your anxiety, and you can’t deal with the normal office.

      Feel better soon!

      1. Turtlewings*

        Agreed. Mention to your coworkers what’s going on so they know why you’ve suddenly disappeared — hopefully they can vouch for you not looking well if anyone asks. Go home!

    2. Alianora*

      If you’re that sick, go home! Your coworkers will probably be happy not to be exposed to the germs too.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I left. No germs, I’m not that kind of sick or I never would have gone in.

        Seems like an issue with my guts, doc made me get an xray.

        1. Mama Bear*

          I hope you feel better soon. If you have a follow up appointment, you might reference today. “I have a follow up from when I went to the doctor on Friday” just to reiterate that yes, you were super sick.

    3. Former Govt Contractor*

      You’re not doing anyone any favors by staying there while you’re sick as a dog. Leave your boss a note or send an email and go.

    4. AnonLawyer*

      Don’t ask, email them and just leave. You can’t keep water down. No one wants you at work like that.

    5. Doug Judy*

      Email your boss and go home. Or tell a coworker you’re leaving. It happens. Once I got a call that my son was ill and I needed to get him. My boss wants going to be back for hours, so I just sent him and email and left. It wasn’t a big deal.

    6. ChimericalOne*

      I hope you already left! If not, please go — just send an email or leave a note. It doesn’t look shady to come in & then leave sick. If you were faking, you’d just not come in at all! (And even if it does, far better to look shady than to gross everyone out and/or make everyone sick!)

    7. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Well, you can always arrange to miss the bathroom and vomit in the hallway. Everyone will be happy to see you go home then.

      But really, don’t do that. Send an email/im to boss letting them know you’re ill and need to go home. Go talk to whomever it makes sense to talk to, tell them you’re ill and going home. Then go home.

    9. Art3mis*

      You’re a grown up. Unless you’re in some kind of job where someone not covering you would be a safety issue or some other kind of coverage problem, then you don’t need to ask, just go home.

    11. tamarack & fireweed*

      Good lord, yes what the other said. I hope you made it home early. At my current workplace, I am trusted with setting my own work hours (and work in several locations all over campus anyway). But in my previous jobs, it would just have completely ok to email a note to the boss or, worst case, leave a note with a trusted co-worker, admin, even the receptionist to pass on: you were sick, you needed to leave, sorry about that. That’s what any humane workplace should allow…. so sorry you’re stressing about yours.

      And feel better!

  21. Your best tips please!*

    What are your best tips and advice for surviving a toxic job? (Minus looking for another job, already on the list.) How do you all compartmentalize?

    1. good old times*

      This is not Therapist Recommended, but I disassociate. Look on my body from outside of it, that kind of thing. I focus on that our time in the world is short compared to the lifespan of the universe. All will be irrelevant in 50 years. Everything changes and ends. This current situation does not matter and will not exist in a short time in a geological time frame.

      This doesn’t stop me from crying, but it does give a good perspective on it.

      Also sometimes I watch cat adoption shelter livecams.

    2. Frankie Bergstein*

      When I have had toxic jobs, I’ve also had a gym membership and done a whole lot of exercise each day right after work. It helped me leave my stress somewhere other than home. It didn’t solve the toxicity, but it did help me to feel better each day. And I also reminded myself, “this is JUST a job”. And have a very active social life so people can look at you and see value and like and enjoy you. That didn’t happen a lot in my experience of toxic workplaces.

      Good luck to you. I’ve worked in two toxic workplaces, and this is hard!

      1. Sassy*

        Likewise, I run or exercise after work to get my mind off things and get the endorphins going. Punching bags are super great for that, just picture Coworker X on it and you’ll get a fantastic workout.

        I also have a few Angry Song playlists on my phone so when I’m really annoyed I play those so I can wallow in it. At least for me taking 10 mins hiding in bathroom or walking outside office and just being really really pissed can help me. I recognize the anger, vent, and then can better move on.

        Also best of luck to OP in your job search, and hope you find a new, better place soon!

    3. Not really a waitress*

      I keep a bottle of whiskey next to my bed and take a swig from it when I get home. I wish I was kidding. My current boss is just…. wow.

    4. LessNosy*

      – Whenever at all possible, don’t do any work outside of work hours.
      – Reframe any toxic behaviors you observe in other people as “how weird, what a fun social experiment I get to witness though!” (Thanks Alison for that reframing)
      – Have someone, at work or not at work, who is willing to listen to you so you can get everything out when you need to. Also helpful if they can offer you advice when you want it!
      – Make sure you have hobbies or an event something to look forward to after work. Even if it’s just a TV show that day. “Heck yeah, Llama Yoga tonight, just gotta get through X more hours of work! Getting excited!”
      – Read AAM every day as an escapism and for commiseration purposes :)
      – Agree with Frankie Bergstein, “It’s JUST a job” is a helpful mantra to keep repeating!

      Good luck on your job search!!

      1. The Original K.*

        Seconding all this, especially the idea of looking at the toxic job as though you’re watching a National Geographic documentary. “How unusual, Annoying Colleague is in her natural habitat and cutting her toenails in full view of the office.” And exercise really helped me, if you’re into that. I would go straight from work to the gym or on a run or bike ride, and it helped a lot because it was something to look forward to (I like exercise) and it helped with stress.

        Also, don’t take on anything extra if you can help it. Not just not doing work outside of work hours (which I agree with), but sticking to your job description and duties and ONLY those as much as possible. That way at least you have stuff you can say “not my problem” about.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      “This too shall pass”
      “This isn’t about me, it’s about them”
      “Not my circus, not my monkeys”

    6. DaniCalifornia*

      Exercise. Good venting buddies who are willing to let you rage for 5 mins and go “That sucks!” Podcasts at work if you can that are enjoyable or calming. When our busy season happens everyone gets stressed and I play classical music for them. It seems to keep the mood calmer. Literally saying out loud in the car “My job is toxic. I cannot fix XYZ or change ABC. I cannot control it. I can respond appropriately, be professional, and continue my job search.”

      I feel you and empathize! I’m right there with you and about to leave mine.

    7. Anon For Today*

      I know it sounds like a strange technique, but I take the “I’m not actually (job), I just play one on TV” approach, in which this is what I do for X hours per day for a paycheck and then the second I clock out, I’m not that person anymore. I have a specific phone (not company provided) for work that I turn off at the end of the day, which helps a lot with detaching once my work day is done. Good luck with the new job!

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Find someone or someplace to vent to for starters. Don’t abuse the source and only talk about work but a good friend or spouse is going to want to be there to listen to you.

      I saved myself from utter destruction by talking about it with my mom and my partner.

      Journaling also helps some people. Anything to just spill all the toxicity that you have built up inside out into some kind of void. Bottling it up and just internalizing it is what really guts you the fastest a lot of times.

      Finding an activity you really enjoy and can detach from work would be great too. Join a bowling league or a softball team if you’re into that kind of thing. Anything that gives you that thing to look forward to during the week. “It’s fine, I’ve got bowling tonight and I get to see the gang and it’ll be a great time.”

      I try to make sure it’s a healthy outlet so that you’re not self medicating with drinking or something else because it will only make things so much worse, you can’t drown out the stress, it simply doesn’t work.

      Though if you’re being triggered with anxiety or depression due to this, which is common, a doctor and medicine that they are monitoring is an option if you reach your maximum.

    9. Yuan Zai*

      Are you good at multi-tasking? Do you have regular tasks that don’t require a lot of thinking, like filing or routine data entry sort of things? I got through a really awful job period once by writing stories in my head and when I’d get writer’s block I’d basically just replay movies I’d watched or books I’d read or play songs on my mental radio.

    10. Double A*

      Pretend you’re on a sitcom and watching from the outside, then when you interact you’re playing a role.

      If you’re having trouble sleeping/destressing, watching Bob Ross is really helpful for me to stop my mind spinning and relax. There’s a million episodes of the Joy of Painting on YouTube.

      Also I recommend getting a therapist. I had an extremely stressful job (it wasn’t toxic exactly, but working with extremely difficult clients) and I ended up having basically a nervous breakdown, but because I had an established therapist he was able to help me navigate going on FMLA leave. Hopefully you won’t need anything like that, but having that as a resource was really helpful.

      1. Windchime*

        Bob Ross videos are very helpful. There is also a guy that restores paintings on YouTube, called Baumgartner Restoration. It’s amazingly soothing and peaceful to watch him work on the paintings as he softly narrates. (It’s not creepy like ASMR). Things like that calm me down after a stressful day.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Keep in mind that toxic places are a huge energy drain. It takes mental and in turn physical strength to get through this stuff.

      Pull out all the stops:
      Self-care is huge. Regular hydration, whole foods, REST!, short walks. If you don’t recharge a battery it won’t work. Likewise with our bodies and minds. Put stuff into you as often as possible. Recharge your body and your mind.

      Give yourself small rewards often. But watch the reward, ten boxes of cookies is comforting in the moment but the next day those cookies can be a belly ache. Pick rewards that are beneficial to you and yours in the long run.

      Get a vision in your mind’s eye of where you are going. You are going to a new place, people are kind and they work at their jobs. You get thanked. You get compliments. Keep working on this mental image, tell yourself “this is where I am going”. Work on this vision daily, you can do this in the shower or on break, or whatever.

      Don’t make every battle a hill to die on. Likewise, don’t make every concern a battle. Survival says that you will still have to fight some fights, but you can pick the fights. Pick the ones that are winnable. Pick the ones that impact you the most. But let the rest go.

    12. Tenebrae*

      Marconi Union’s Weightless. It’s been scientifically proven to be some of the most soothing music in the world. Listening to it on repeat got me through the last few months of Workplace Bullying Toxic Ex-Job.

      1. Glad I Don’t Work There!*

        Personal projects; I paint old furniture.
        Daily exercise.
        A balanced diet.
        A to-do list. Check the boxes.
        Regular habits.
        Get-togethers with friends.
        Everything everyone else has suggested.

  22. angry boss*

    Someone I called for a reference about a potential hired lied. The reference was false. They wanted the potential hire gone because they were a bad employee. They also roped others from the company into also giving false references. They all wanted this person gone. It’s my word against theirs. Now the bad employee has cost the company big money from mistakes and my team will be down a person going into our busiest season for months while the hiring process is done all over again (as the other candidates we looked at who were potential hires are no longer available. I’m so mad and there is nothing I can do for my team and I got into trouble with my boss for “ignoring” bad references when hiring.

    1. good old times*

      Do you have documentation to back you up that actually you got GOOD references for this person?

    2. AnonLawyer*

      That’s utterly insane. Of course you didn’t deliberately hire someone bad. Why would your boss take the word of an outsider over your statement? If this is a pattern, would job hunt. Your boss shouldn’t be undercutting you like that.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        All of this. Man, this situation sucks, angry boss. Try to find your original notes from your calls if you can.

    3. WellRed*

      Your boss is an ass, but honest question: Why did you get multiple references from the same company?

    4. Oh No She Di'int*

      Out of curiosity, how did you find out it was a lie? I suspect this happened to me once; if you have sleuthing techniques I’d dying to know what you do!

    5. Wishing You Well*

      I am sorry your boss is giving you grief about this.
      Good references to get rid of bad employees is not unknown. My company did just that for a manager who was systematically getting rid of all the women under her. I wasn’t involved, mercifully. The best thing to do is fire the non-performer quickly which it sounds like you did.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      How many references did you get total?
      How many were bad?

      Hiring is a gamble. I am wondering if your boss somehow set you up to fail by not giving you enough guidance. Or I am wondering if your boss just wants someone to kick and you are it for this particular problem.

      No one ever, in recorded history has always hired perfect people. EVER.

      I think I would put those people who lied on my s-list.

  23. CatCat*

    Had my review this week and it went great. I’ve been at Current Job for 3 years and am still happy here. It’s the longest I’ve stayed in one position in my line of work (though not quite the longest I’ve been at one organization). I was a little concerned that I’m stagnating a bit, but I came up with an idea to work on a new subject area and my boss was very receptive to that. This is really the first place in my career that I could see myself staying for many years.

    1. Princess Scrivener*

      Congrats! Are we twins? Because same. Thanks to AAM, I even got the braves to ask about my next promotion and wfh one more day a week. Yay for us; have a great weekend, CatCat.

  24. morning glory*

    I am having a serious issue with my intern making a lot of mistakes, and becoming very defensive when I ask him to do things like read emails more carefully. He is ESL and I think gets embarrassed when he doesn’t understand something. He never asks questions to clarify when he is confused.

    I have proactively tried to accommodate the language barrier, like telling him something in person and then repeating via email so he can go back and read again later if he didn’t understand it – but it doesn’t seem to make any difference. The quality of the work he is turning in is not just bad from a language perspective – I could fix grammatical mistakes – it shows he did not have a good understanding of the instructions to begin with.

    Does anyone have experience working through a language barrier when the other person won’t admit there’s an issue?

      1. valentine*

        Suggest he Google Translate your emails. If his primary language is Spanish, he should be able to correct the translation, if necessary. You can also translate, then translate back, to see close it is. If he still can’t explain it to you, it’s not a language barrier. He should at least be able to say, “The words on the tip of my tongue,” or “I can see it; I just can’t say it.” Tell him he needs to help you help him and that this doesn’t bode well for his future.

    2. Quill*

      I currently do my work with a colleague split between English and Spanish but we both know that there’s a gap in communication sometimes, so I don’t have advice on the defensiveness bit, but overall I think the way to do this in a healthy way is to establish up front that there will not be reprecussions for asking for help. Based on the fact that he’s an intern, he’s likely been pretty stewed in a culture of not asking for help throughout school.

    3. Mbarr*

      Are you 100% sure it’s a language issue? We had an English speaking co-op student who was the most freakin’ personable person in the world (he wanted to be a law student) but he was ridiculously unreliable at following written instructions. We had to double and triple check his work constantly cause we couldn’t trust him to get it right.

      Consider looking at it from an “attention to details” point of view. Alison’s written some posts coaching people on this might work.

      1. morning glory*

        I think it is a language problem. There have been a few times when I’ve asked him to explain my instructions back to me, verbally to check whether he understands them – and he cannot do it. He gets visibly upset and embarrassed when I do this and tries to change the subject to get out of responding.

        I’d noticed during his interview that his English was a bit hesitant, but he said it was because he was very nervous, and since it was an internship we were hiring on a short timeline, I decided to take a chance.

        1. Yohohoho*

          Would it help for him to write down the instructions in his own words (in English) and then come back to you to ensure he’s understanding it as you intend? If it is a language issue and depending on the field of work it may be he’s having difficulty on meaning and intent. Although I imagine this could be difficult if he’s already defensive.

        2. Jennifer Thneed*

          There are cultures where people just don’t ask questions at work. I know this has been an issue in the past when I was on a team that worked with an Indian team (meaning, they were IN India and had never worked in the US). And I learned recently, I think here, that there are cultures where students don’t ask a lot of questions in school. And then, there are people who just.won’t.ask for whatever personal reasons. So he might be pretty much unable to ask questions, no matter how much you tell him to.

          Regardless of the reason he isn’t asking questions, internships are about learning to navigate the working world. You get to tell him that this is unacceptable in a work setting. That if he can’t do the work because he isn’t asking questions, it counts as “not able to do the work”. That he must figure out a way to ask questions, perhaps in writing later if he’s unable to ask them in person. And that not figuring this out will lose him jobs in the future and might lose him this internship.

          1. Baru Cormorant*

            This. I work in a similar culture and it’s kind of hilarious to hear the Americans encouraging us to ask questions on a department-wide call, as if anyone would speak up and ask for clarification in front of the whole department, or worse, offer suggestions to someone that high up the chain!

            In this culture, the way to get questions answered is to discreetly ask someone close to you, a peer or immediate supervisor or someone lower down in a more private or lower stakes situation. Questions and objections are vetted before being presented.

            If language understanding and personality issues aren’t also in play, this could be one reason he’s hesitant to ask for clarification.

    5. PollyQ*

      How long is the internship for, and do you have the option of terminating it early? Language barrier is no small thing, but an inability to admit that he has a problem at all is fatal.

    6. Double A*

      Honestly, the defensiveness is the biggest problem, and I would start with a conversation about that. There could be cultural expectations he’s grappling with as well (although defensiveness really knows no nationality as a maladaptive response to feedback). If you can’t work through his defensiveness, you can’t address any other issues. Defensiveness will also hinder his career and growth, so coaching him on this issues is really an essential task as a manager.

      Some points you can talk about with him:
      -Defensiveness is a counterproductive response to a manager, but it CAN be a useful cue that there’s something you need to be reflective about, and probably that you need need to ask for help about something.
      -You will make mistakes, but how you deal with these mistakes will make or break your professional reputation.
      -In any office environment you’d actually want to work in, not asking for help or asking clarifying questions makes you look bad, especially when you’re making mistakes.
      -Talk about the difference between traditional school learning (study for the test, get a grade, move on) and in a job.

      Give him some scripts for when he’s feeling defensive.
      >”Can I have a some time to think about this feedback and we can follow up this afternoon/tomorrow/in a few days?”
      >”I’m having trouble understanding where I went wrong. Can you help me figure it out?”

      1. LilySparrow*

        This is a great approach, in terms of addressing the defensiveness as the main problem.

        But if his inability to follow direct instructions on intern-level tasks is in fact due to a language barrier, I can’t help wondering what he will be able to process from such an abstract discussion.

        But then, perhaps it would be a helpful way to assess if communication is the problem or not. Often, people who are weaker on attention-to-detail stuff can be stronger in abstract/relational stuff.

        So if he’s right there with you on this type of conversation, you can be pretty sure language isn’t the issue.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      When one is working in a foreign language, one can often understand more than one can say. It’s recognition, vice recall. So the fact that he can’t repeat it back to you doesn’t always mean he doesn’t understand. (I’m not saying he did or didn’t understand, just that his inability to repeat it back may mean he struggles with the language, not with understanding.)

      In my experience some people have problems following multi-step directions. He may be one of these. Add language difficulties, and you compound the problem. I’d give him instructions in bullet points – lay out each step for him. Both verbally and in writing. See if that helps.

  25. Achoo*

    I think my newish employee is lying to me. Not for malicious reasons and not even for serious things, but because he doesn’t want to admit he doesn’t know something.

    This week I asked him to update a department database. After I discussed some errors to correct, he mentioned he had never updated the database before. I knew for a fact that one of the first things I had him do when he started was update the database (because it’s a good way to learn what we do). But he refused to admit he’d seen it before and that he knew how to do it because of his previous job. I then opened the back end and showed him his entries.

    This kind of things happens probably once or twice a month. I ask him to do something. He tells me something that feels off. I find out that he forgot something or didn’t do something. And he refuses to acknowledge responsibility. I’m getting frustrated by it because most of these issues are because he lacks attention to detail and refuses to ask questions, which I have discussed with him before and will be doing in a performance review next month. But as none of these situations are egregious, it just feels wrong to make a federal case out of it. And so, I have doubts he’ll change and I’m tired of repeating myself.

    1. Armchair Analyst*

      Is it possible he really doesn’t remember? Could be a lot of reasons for that. Regardless, you should bring it up not in a context of, “I think you’re lying” but in a context of “Facts show A, but you told me B. What can we do to get on the same page with A?”

      1. Achoo*

        He doubled down and said he didn’t remember. Which may be true. But, that doesn’t make me feel any better.

        1. TechWorker*

          ‘One of the first things I had him he do when he started’ – I’m not downplaying your other concerns here but I do think it very likely he forgot, in this context.

          I’ve been at my company 5 years. I can remember pretty good details from the projects I worked on most of that time but near nothing from the first few months, I think because all my brainpower was focussed on learning new stuff and taking it all in. Similarly I can remember exactly what my reports worked on when they joined the company but on multiple occasions it’s come up they simply don’t remember.

    3. Turtlewings*

      I think this calls for a really serious talk with about whether you’re going to keep him on, honestly, because if he’ll (repeatedly!) lie about little things, he will absolutely lie about big things later. He’s showing you that he will use dishonesty to cover his butt even from mild embarrassment — imagine what he’d do if he made a big mistake that costs thousands of dollars, or even people’s lives (depending on your work). It may not be too late to turn him around, but this is not a problem that’s going to resolve itself, and you absolutely should “make a federal case” out of it. (Alternately, he has a severe memory problem that may make it impossible for him to carry out his duties, at least without treatment! That has to be addressed, too.)

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Agreed. You’ve got to make it really clear that this isn’t okay and see if he’s able to stop doing it or not. When it happens, call it out directly: “It concerns me that you said you’d never done this when, as we can see here, you had. What happened there?” … followed by, “We’ve had a few instances like this now. It’s really important that I be able to take you at your word when you tell me something. If I can’t, I’d need to check into everything in a way that’s not practical.” Depending on how this goes, you could even say, “Sometimes people shade the truth like this because it feels easier in the moment, so I need to be very transparent with you that it’s absolutely not something you can do while working here. I need to be able to trust what you tell me, and if I can’t, I couldn’t keep you in the role.”

      4. Psyche*

        I agree. This is a big deal. Either he is having significant memory lapses or he is dishonest. The fact that he would lie to cover up a small mistake is a problem. I actually did have severe memory problems in my early 20s and did claim (with complete sincerity) to have never done tasks that I was shown I had done before. However, if that were the case he probably would have decided to go to a doctor when you showed him the entries he had made.

        1. Myrin*

          Yeah, my sister is dealing with this at the moment. She suffers from memory loss/bad short-term memory because of her PTSD but her medication actually worsens that factor. She is very proactive about it, though, and, coincidentally, will be talking to the boss at her new job about it tomorrow to see if she can get some accommodation for it.

          1. EJane*

            oh god I have CPTSD/med-induced STL too.

            I came clean to the team I lead about two months ago, which has been a godsend because now they know why I insist on being Slacked everything, even if they literally just told me in person–and my boss has stopped questioning my post-it note habit. But there are times where I will look at a ticket, or read a note, and I have NO recollection of it. Like, wondering who the hell logged in as me to email this client levels of forgetfulness.
            It’s really distressing. Having an understanding workplace is a godsend.

      5. Achoo*

        Thanks everyone and Allison! We did have a conversation a couple of months ago because I noticed that he would push back when I had questions about a project. Basically he would state what he knew rather than finding the answer. I told him I did not expect him to always know the answer and that when I had a question, it wasn’t necessary to respond immediately, but to find the right answer instead. He acknowledged what I was saying and even agreed with me on why I thought he was doing it (that he felt it was his responsibility to know the answer, when it was not). But that insecurity obviously still remains.

        We have a performance review coming up where I will stress the importance of asking questions when he doesn’t know something, as well as better attention to detail (both of which I think are the underlying reasons for his behavior and both of which have come up in conversation). And will also highlight the problems this can cause in the future.

        I don’t have complete autonomy over hiring and firing however. He reports to me, but it’s my boss who would essentially decide whether his behavior is detrimental and at the moment, she just feels he’s green and therefore needs more management. She has seen my evaluation though and has agreed with my assessment.

        In the meantime, unfortunately I don’t completely trust him. There are some areas that he is comfortable with, so I give him projects that play to his strengths or low-level projects that don’t have serious impact if he should make a mistake. And although, that won’t work long-term, I think it will identify areas of improvement and opportunities for him to correct inappropriate behavior. (Which I realize this is, even if it stems from insecurity.)

        I appreciate the validation of all of this and also advice on correcting/managing it!

    4. DaniCalifornia*

      Yikes! All the little things in the moment may not seem like much but if they add up to major concerns it’s worth documenting and discussing with him. If he truly is lying then that’s bad. If it’s something he needs to be retrained on and he’s embarrassed, or he needs accommodations etc then you’re giving him a chance to let you know. Then at least you’ve made him aware of a pattern of “This Happened” and it can’t continue to happen, let’s figure out how to do better going forward. If you offer assistance of “How can I best help you going forward?” and then it keeps happening/he refuses help then you have cause for dismissal.

    5. writelhd*

      This reminds me very strongly of situations I’ve had with other pathological lying coworkers, who in all cases did lie and obfuscate because they knew they were messing up but were not willing to bring that up or address that directly. Those situations *never* ended well, *always* immediately improved after lying worker had finally done something so egregious as to be shown the door, and in all cases the there is institutional damage that still lingers from having someone in the role who obfuscated and lied. Client relationships destroyed, huge cost sunks of mistakes uncovered, etc. Once or twice a month is definitely enough to be a pattern. Work is too important to tolerate this, in my opinion.

      I think if it feels off you do have to address it head on. You’re not crazy. If he doesn’t remember, it’s concerning that he doesn’t remember things he asked you to do. If he’s lying because he doesn’t know, then he’s failing at a core aspect of his job, which is learning what he is trained to know and admitting it when he doesn’t. One doesn’t have to fail egregiously, to still fail.

      But agree that calling it lying will get you nowhere with him. YOu have to address it head on as Armchair Analyst said, escalating to “when I ask you to do something I need you to do it, and if you can’t you need to come to me so we can figure out why, too many strikes and you’re out.”

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      I’d hesitate to call it “lying” so much as not paying any attention and being defensive in ways that make no sense. I would call it out in the moment to try to figure it out, so when he says he never did something and you know he did call it right there “I know that you did this previously because you worked on this XYZ. Do you not remember that?”

    7. !*

      In the interim, can you have him add the tasks to a calendar that he can then check off when he’s done or some other way of solidifying that he’s done something that he claims he has not? It should be a shared calendar that you can see as well.

    8. Sassy*

      I’ve managed a similar person before. She would tell Owner she did X, me she did Y, and another manager she did Z all to look busy and like she was doing what she was supposed to.

      I do website work so you can verify if someone logged in, so after hearing a lot of odd inconsistencies, I did that once. Caught her red handed in her lies. Get her a four-page written warning including five offenses, and she decided to quit the next day. Good riddance.

      I recommend start building a paper trail. Document the issues in writing, and then bring those to the performance review and formally put them on a performance improvement plan. It’s a waste of your time to continue to try with someone who obviously isn’t trying themselves. If they can’t improve after formal write up, move ’em on out. Sounds harsh, but it’ll probably be best for everyone in the long run.

      1. Achoo*

        I’ve started documenting and even offering instructions or corrections via email first to establish a paper trail and also keep track for myself patterns of behavior and issues.

    9. tamarack & fireweed*

      “The problem is not that you didn’t know how to do X, or that you didn’t remember. The problem is that you claimed you had never done it. And it’s not just a one-off fluke: it has happened a few times. Is there a problem that I need to know about? If not, we really need to agree on this: We can fix not knowing something with training, but I don’t know how to fix it if you aren’t straightforward with me.”

    10. MrGrey*

      My newish coworker is the same but she seems to lie even more often. Sometimes it’s work related, other times more personal. I’ve never met anyone who has such a quick response for anything you say, and it’s often simply not true. Anything. She can’t seem to control it and when I question her, she never backs down either. It’s incredibly frustrating.
      My manager sees it, but is just keeping an eye on it for now. Sadly, I have to deal with it all day.
      I’ve started putting more conversations in email- saying, “here’s a cheat sheet for the process we reviewed today”, or a link to the folder with the info we worked on. At least I’ll have a paper trail if need it. I also find it helps to have a 3rd person looped in when we discuss things.

  26. Can we talk about the menopause?*

    TL:DR Would anyone be happy to share their tactics for coping with menopause in the workplace?

    Hoping that I can tap into the collective wisdom of the commentariat.

    I’m a C level Exec still establishing myself in a role with a high profile. While I don’t mind people knowing that I am menopausal, I don’t want to get the reputation that ‘she had such promise but let herself down when the menopause struck’. And I’m struggling.

    Specifically, fatigue, anxiety (my imposter syndrome has gone through the roof), inability to concentrate and some woolly mindedness/forgetfulness. Nothing irrecoverable yet, but I don’t like the pattern developing.

    I’ve been open with my boss, and she’s understanding, but at the same time I’d rather get back on top of my game rather than look for accommodations.

    So please, what worked for you/yours? Any tactics/tips gratefully received.

    2. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Right there with ya sister. For now, I’m managing my symptoms, but my doctor said if they become too much we’ll explore medicine. My worst is the fuzzy brain, I have to write EVERYTHING down these days!!

    4. Kama'aina Kitty*

      Don’t be afraid to discuss bioidentical hormone replacement therapy with your gyno. It may not be right for you, but it made a world of difference to me.

    5. little orange teapot*

      It felt like I didn’t sleep for a year after menopause, and then I did the drugs (HRT). Several years later, I’m still on HRT, but am at the losing nouns stage. Good luck!

    6. tab*

      I found that a daily workout schedule significantly reduced the frequency and intensity of hot flashes. Also, I used more technology (calendar reminders and detailed notes) to help with the memory issues.

    7. It's a Living*

      It’s been 7 years since I went through surgical menopause. The fuzzy-headedness hasn’t completely gone away, so I’ve just come to terms with the fact that I’m now someone who has to write everything down and look everything up. Things just don’t stay in my brain the way they used to! Also, pay attention to your emotions and take mental breaks as needed. I brought work to a screeching halt for 3 people for over an hour because I didn’t like the picture they chose of me for our intranet. Looking back I can laugh at it, but I’ll never forget how my boss sounded as he was negotiating with the highly emotional, completely unreasonable beast I was that day.

    8. Aquawoman*

      I take a supplement called estrovera and have few symptoms (run warm, a couple of hot flashes a week) and the ones I was having went away. If you’re able, I’d suggest a holistic/integrative doctor because all kinds of things can go wonky at that point and there can be all kinds of different ways to deal. Just e.g., my brain function depends strongly on what I eat.

      1. Can we talk about the menopause?*

        This definitely chimes with me. I’ve been to see my GP (UK based) but hadn’t thought about a more integrative approach – will see if I can find someone

        1. UKCoffeeLover*

          I’ve used homeopathy very successfully. I don’t self prescribe though, I see a registered homeopath.
          Also evening primrose oil is good.

          Another tip (much harder this one) is cut down on carbs but especially sugar. Carb heats your system, you don’t need extra heat at this time !!

    9. It gets better*

      Diet, and acupuncture.

      I’ve always been sensitive to diet, so this wasn’t a surprise, but eating all the time as if my cycle was tough that month helped. For me, that meant upgrading protein and greens.

      Acupuncture was a revelation. Happened into one who does a lot of work with infertility, which in his case means that he has particular attention to the reproductive system. Much more stable overall, and frequent input on dietary adjustments through the process.

      Good luck. It does get better.

      1. Formerly in HR*

        I second acupuncture – if you believe in it and are not afraid of needles. In my case, it required some sessions at the beginning and now I might go every 2 months for managing the heat.
        Before acupuncture I was sweating at night, had hot flushes several times an hour, had the worst case of fuzzy brain I ever read about to the point I would start going somewhere and forget why I was doing it.
        I am also trying to actively manage my stress – I have no symptoms when I am away from work. Something like MBSR might work with the stress.

    10. Lora*

      Menopause due to chemo, which is a little different because it’s all at once:

      I must write down everything. Must. I have to draw everything out with different color magic markers and highlighters and it felt like going back to 10th grade.

      Started wearing clothing that was more compatible with, um, sudden gushing of blood, so if I had to wear multiple pads or heaven forfend adult diapers to catch the Red Tide, it wasn’t as obvious. Also layers, because sometimes you will want to wear a summer dress in December. Summers were unrelenting torture for a while. Many weird weight changes, knit fabrics were great. I needed something with stretch to accommodate changing body shape without having to buy a new wardrobe all the time.

      Large water bottle full of ice water. They have really good insulated bottles now, I got one at World Market / Cost Plus the other day that is pretty cute, holds a lot and stays cold all day. I can easily chug a quart of cold water in a minute. Fortunately everyone has water bottles now and it’s normal.

      Can’t have estrogen replacement due to the cancer history, but I could have progesterone-only replacement which helped with both the flooding and the weird weight changes. My weight stabilized about 10 pounds more than I’d like it, but I wasn’t fluctuating between a B and a DD cup anymore.

      First Aid Beauty things (I got mine at Sephora) for the adult acne and weird patchy dry skin. The prescription crap for rosacea AND adult acne didn’t do a darn thing for me. First Aid Beauty products helped a lot though.

      It got better after about 5 years.

    11. Bibliovore*

      It was my supervisor who diagnosed me. Early onset. Got off the subway, walked in her office and said, I am running a fever, I’m nauseated and dizzy, and I am going home sick. She said sit down, take off your coat, take off your sweater, you are having a hot flash. She was right.
      My symptoms included insomnia, hot flashes, brain fog, anxiety, and anger. I waited way too long to get help. The worst things were obsessive thoughts and not sleeping. Seriously, birds in the morning. WTH? I turned myself into the therapist for coping strategies- meditation, time-outs, counting to 10. Is it kind etc. I felt like I was 16 again and not in a good way. Premarin and Progesterone helped with the hot flashes and the insomnia. New wardrobe. A sleeveless shell or tank, a cardigan or sweater, a sweater or fleece vest like that. Portable fan in my office. Peppermint wipes. Going easy on myself.

      I did not discuss with anyone else at work except my direct supervisor.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      The before time was the worst part for me. Once it was over, sanity resumed.

      Rest became way too important and that was when I learned to pay attention to my feet. If my feet are too hot or too cold in bed, then I am going to be miserable. I also learned to turn off the tv and go to bed. If I am too tired for anything but tv, then I need to be in bed.

      So for me, extra rest, plenty of whole foods which meant many veggies. MANY. I avoided red meat and that helped.

      Minerals are good for the brain and good for muscles. But it is wise to work with a doc or a practitioner because going on your own you can end up even more tired. Minerals will help with concentration, anxiousness, forgetfulness, fogginess, etc.

      I second the suggestion of homeopathic remedies for calming. Again, work with a professional so you take the correct amount and have someone who knows when you should stop taking them, if you chose this route.

      For immediate purposes craft routines or habits that will help you through out the day. I have a clip on my key ring that I have used for decades. I can clip my keys to something and I spend much less time looking for them. Even though my brain came back, I still like the idea of simplifying and streamlining as much as possible. It just makes sense to do some of these things anyway.
      And I checked out where my weak points are, such as I am very good at losing keys. I have a spare door key in my wallet in case I lock my keys in my car. I have a spare house key hidden in case I lock myself out of my house. I won’t say how many times I have used these keys. You know you best, you know your weak points, take steps to buoy things up along those weak points.
      It’s amazing how much of a relief it is to have a plan for the recurring annoyances that can come up. There will always be unforeseens and one-offs that we cannot plan for. The idea here is to have enough brain capacity left so we can deal with the stuff that blindsides us. This works into just a good life habit, too.

    13. Quandong*

      I wasn’t able to take HRT due to my medical history, and I live in a climate where it’s very hot and humid in summer. Unfortunately I couldn’t take time off work, which would have been my ideal solution to the worst months of symptoms.

      This is what helped me cope with hot flushes:
      Always carrying a folding fan, wearing natural fibres, getting more than one cooling evaporative towel, carrying a large handkerchief for intense bursts of perspiration (this was really so other people didn’t feel uncomfortable, not so much for me).

      My hot flushes were less severe when I completely stopped drinking coffee and black tea, and any alcohol, and foods with chilli or hot spices. It took 10 minutes for food or drinks to bring on a hot flush and I learned pretty quickly what to avoid.

      I did my best to build in more breaks during the day to get into the coldest environment possible for 10 minutes or more.

      Also, I accepted that I couldn’t function the same way as before, and paid attention to my emotional state more carefully, since I had the very common experience of getting in touch with my anger. I found therapy really beneficial at this time.

      There’s no getting around the fact that it’s a tremendous strain to go through menopause at work.

      Honestly – and you may prefer not to hear this! – it may not be possible to ‘get back on top of’ your game due to the way your body reacts to menopause. Or, to put it another way, the effort required for you to perform the same way as before may be unsustainable, given what you’re going through.

      Please consider using any accommodations available to you, including counselling or therapy if necessary. More than one of my friends and family found their mental health severely impacted by menopause and they needed professional help to cope.

      I hope you get a lot of good suggestions from this thread!

    14. Dancing Otter*

      My doctor recommended ginkgo.
      Turned out, my problems actually had more to do with fibroids, so I can’t say whether the ginkgo was helpful or not. If one of your symptoms is heavier or longer bleeding, get checked for fibroids: there’s straight forward treatment for that, at least.

      For night sweats and trouble sleeping, I switched to the duvet model – not having the sheet and blanket tucked in made it easier to kick off the covers when I was too warm – and lowering the thermostat at night. Getting (or not getting) enough sleep makes a vast difference in mental acuity and irritability.

    15. Can we talk about the menopause?*

      Thank you all very much for sharing. I’ve bookmarked and will keep referring back.
      Am going to look for an alternative practitioner, look at my diet and improve my exercise routine to attempt to improve things overall. It sounds like habits/routines/checklists are going to be my friends at work. It’s going to be ‘interesting’ trying to create them from scratch as I’ve always relied on my memory. But, needs must.
      Many thanks all.

    16. Ralph the Wonder Llama*

      Fully menopausal now, perimenopausal for nearly a decade. It sounds more than a little woo-woo, but the less dairy and meat I ate, the better my body regulated it’s temperature. Fully vegan, when I could stick to it, equaled no hot flashes whatsoever.

  27. Blarg*

    Well known/well respected non-profit with a position posted since March. It isn’t super specialized and the listed pay is excellent. So why is it still open? Seems really unlikely that *no one* who is qualified applied. So do they not consider it important enough to fill? Sign of dysfunction? And is there ever a way to ask “ummm, is this job actually going to be filled?” before taking time to apply?

    (I did apply but seemed like an exercise in futility).

    1. AndersonDarling*

      It could be that the non-profit is looking for a special personality match. They need someone who is dedicated to the mission and it’s hard to come by.
      Or they did a really bad job with the job description and applicants are matching the description but not what the recruiter is actually looking for.

    2. Bex*

      I work at a well managed nonprofit that pays well for the field. We’ve had a job on my team open since the end of April. Wanted to get a good pool, so we started interviews after it had been up 6 weeks, so early / mid June. The interviews (3 rounds) took about a month, so in mid-July we made an offer. The candidate had some personal things going on, was minimally communicative for 2 weeks and then ghosted on us! So now it’s early August and we reach out to the #2 candidate, who has accepted another job.

      And now we’re starting the process over with a new pool of candidates. The job has been on our site continuously, but we’re reposting on linkedin, idealist, etc.

      Maybe they are dealing with a similar situation?

      1. Blarg*

        Ok, yea, this is actually a really helpful timeline. Fingers and toes crossed that this round finds the right fit for you and that my potential position works out. Cause it’s the first job I’ve seen that I actually got excited about. I would be so proud to work for this org.

    3. M*

      when I worked for non profits most left up the job even after it was filled. Either because they had set it up to be online for X period of time, or the person in charge of putting jobs online was incompetent it just too busy. Usually non profits need roles filled quickly so personally I would always apply ASAP.

    4. Ama*

      When my org has had positions open for a long time it has been for a couple of reasons. One is that there’s some underlying administrative holdup — the hiring manager was suddenly unavailable for a long period of time due to illness or a family member’s illness (this has actually happened on two different occasions), other positions were also open and filling those needed to be prioritized, etc.

      The other is when it is for a position where even well qualified candidates might have vastly different philosophies from the org’s senior management/board on the priorities for the department – if a program is working well here, they are going to be looking for a candidate who is excited about working on and enhancing that program, not someone who is going to propose tearing everything down and starting over. Since we’re a smallish org, we also end up speaking with candidates from larger orgs who don’t always seem to understand that there’s a vast difference in scale in terms of what we can feasibly try to do (we made the mistake once of hiring a candidate like that assuming they’d get it once they were on board and it was a disaster).

      They could just be bad at hiring or have a really picky board that needs to approve the hire but I just wanted to mention a couple of reasons why that might not be the case.

    5. Zephy*

      They might also just leave their listings up for a long time. My job and my boss’s job are still posted on my company’s website; I’ve been here a year, she’s been in the role 18 months. I got an interview more than six months after I applied. Some places just like to collect resumes, just in case, I guess.

    6. PollyQ*

      Obviously, it varies depending on region & industry, but we’re in a period of very low unemployment, not just in the US, but in many other countries. In the same way that people were having difficulty finding a job during the height of the recession, employers are now having difficulty finding qualified people to fill their roles.

    7. Anonymouse*

      A few options:

      A) The office culture could be horrible and they could have had multiple spots open because of bad leadership (it has been known to happen in the nonprofit realm)
      B) The role could be a dead end one with high turnover and as a result they look over applications on a rolling basis
      C) They could have a ridiculously long interview process with specific requirements for applicants

      Wishing you the best in your search!

  28. When apologies make it worse*

    My boss made a mistake this week. I don’t want to get too specific in case work people read this, but fixing the mistake turned into an all hands on deck scenario. It took a lot of time and I ended up missing a meeting I really wanted to go to. I know it sounds weird that I was looking forward to a meeting, but it was supposed to be the first step for me to learn about a sub-field I’m really interested in and I had to miss out because my boss failed to check something really simple and the ripple effects ruined our week’s plans.

    This isn’t the first minor mistake with major ramifications she’s made in the year I’ve been working for her, and I guess now I’m feeling the cumulative effect of always having to double check and clarify everything and drop what I’m doing to fix things.

    So anyway. After this week’s mistake and having to miss my meeting, my boss has apologized to me about 7 or 8 times. And it just makes me feel worse because I can’t tell her it’s okay like she wants me to. Because it’s not okay. But she won’t stop apologizing, and I know it will be the same way in a few weeks when she forgets to check something else.

    I traded a lot of social/political capital to get transferred to this team because there are great people here doing interesting work. But now I’m stuck in this loop and I don’t know if I have enough capital left to get out. I don’t know what to do from here.

    1. writelhd*

      I’m sorry, that sucks.

      I will say that something similar to this happened to be earlier this year. Someone above me in the chain of command made a huge, costly mistake, and I was the one who ended up catching it, as it affected work that I did pretty majorly. As a result I had to re-work something I had worked really hard on, AND investigate how to solve the problem of the mistake more generally, because boss who missed it was too busy and overwhelmed to even deal. It sucked, I was mad, and it edged me one step closer to burnout. He never thanked me, or apologized, and I came to the realization that while he was there, things were always going to be that way, and I started job searching. There was some freedom in realizing that it wasn’t me, it was the system, so I could try to act.

      But…then that guy quit. He was clearly very burned out himself, that incident had not helped him either in that regard, and he reached a point shortly after where he just couldn’t take it anymore. And of course him leaving left a stressful hole…but it’s been filled by someone so much more competent who is not burned out, all the broken systems are getting visibly mended…and as a result my own excitement about work took a total 180, and I turned down a job offer to stay and I’m still pretty sure, most of the time, that was the right decision.

      So…all that to say, things can change all the sudden, but coming to realizations like “this is how it will be here” are still valuable realizations in their own light.

    2. Oh No She Di'int*

      Her profuse apologies clue me in that she doesn’t simply consider it part of your job to cover her mistakes. So that’s a good starting point.

      Beyond that, I think this has to be handled delicately because she is your boss. Would it work to approach her and say something like: “Claudia . . .” No, she feels more like a Doreen. “Doreen, I want to make sure I’m there when the team needs me and that I’m fully participating. But part of the reason I got myself transferred to this team was because I was looking forward to making progress on the kinds of work we do here and the learning opportunities that seem plentiful here. But sometimes, I find it hard to do that when we have these all-hands panics. I find that it disrupts the kind of progress I was hoping to make. Like the last time when the Camden account got messed up and I had to miss the meeting on TPS reports. Can we talk about ways to make those situations less disruptive?”

      I think it’s important not to come across as blaming or even necessarily to bring up her mistakes. She’ll make the connection and will probably apologize again. (So be ready for that.) But your focus should remain on what you’re trying to get out of the job and how you’re trying to contribute. I don’t know that she’ll be able to come up with any brilliant solutions, but I do think it’s fair to let her know that you’re unable to be a fully engaged employee and that some of the onus is on her to help clear the pathway on that.

    3. MaxiesMommy*

      Tell her you appreciate such a sincere apology, then ask how you can get to a similar meeting or seminar since you had to miss yours. You can also offer to help her with a review 2 weeks before the due date so there’s no scrambling–looking at it with a second set of eyes, given how busy she is. She’s most receptive now.

    4. Mama Bear*

      I don’t know what you’ve told her to this point but maybe say, “I know you are very sorry about what happened. However, this had a serious impact on my ability to do x and it wasn’t the first time we had to put out a fire like this. I don’t want to seem like I’m not a team player, but it’s difficult when I have to drop meetings that are important to my career development for things that could have been avoided. What I would like even more than an apology is a better plan going forward so we can avoid more situations like this. How can we improve our team processes?” She knows it was on her but this doesn’t entirely throw her under the bus. I might also ask to not be a “hand on desk” if it conflicts with something very important – could the rest of the team have handled it without you?

    5. Ama*

      I’m sorry, I’ve been in a position where it felt like I could never make a mistake and had to catch everyone else’s and it was absolutely horrible and very bad for my anxiety.

      Is there anyone else on your team that can help with some of the error checking or would that cause issues with your boss? I know when I have even one other person I can trust to look over things it relieves some of the pressure (and I actually do a better job double checking things myself because I don’t feel so anxious about catching everything).

    6. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Does your business do “post-mortems” or “situation analysis” of some sort when incidents happen? When I was into that sort of thing there were two schools of thought–analyze the actor’s actions or analyze the process. We were big on process-evaluation: How did this happen, what was the issue (if the person is taken out)? How can we prevent that issue from happening again?

      For example, in this case: “there’s a single point of accept/reject for this item. Accept was done instead of reject. As this is a mission critical item, a two-person review will be implemented (one to check, one to confirm the check) for this event going forward”. And, if this is the case, you can get one person to do it (with more time than boss, so more chance to get it right) and boss OK it, or vice-versa. Heck, if it’s a two-person sign-off, you might be able to eliminate boss from the system and make it senior/seasoned staff.

      You could even sell it as a team-improvement goal.

      So, when she apologizes and you are trying to figure out what to say, you can say something along the lines of, “I understand your apology. You know, what I’ve seen done after events like this is a process analysis to help prevent issues going forward. I think it can help us identify points in our process that can be improved to help reduce our risk and relieve some of the burden off the team. Do you think we could put something like that together so we can tackle some of the more critical and high-risk things in the department? It would be a good win for us, and I’m sure a relief for you.”

      Assuming she’s receptive, of course. If not, maybe you know for sure if she’s really sorry….

      If she does go for it, you can help put processes in place that might fix some of the “boss doesn’t double-check things” going forward.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Tell her that you do see that she, indeed, feels awful about what happened.

      Using the word “us” as opposed to “you”, say something to the effect of, “I don’t mind bailing us out of a tight spot. That is part of the work here. However, I would like a little recognition for my extra efforts. I would really like to learn about sub-field and I missed the intro opportunity. What can we do so I can get caught up here?”

      See, you have not burned your capital up. You have earned some with HER. So ask her to bail you out here. If she is really apologetic as she seems to be she will work very hard to help you on this point.

      Some bosses can really go to bat for us, but we have to let them know what it is that we value. Tell her that you value this training, see how she handles that information.

    8. LGC*

      Has your boss ever called her coworker at 10 PM to yell profanity at her? Asking for a friend.

      Okay, so – she’s probably not Minerva from the Wednesday letter about the mentally ill coworker, but she’s actually doing one of the things Minerva did – over-apologizing for things, and then…not fixing the obvious problem. (I’m not using “love bombing,” because that implies a pattern of abuse to me, but I’m not wholly opposed to the term here.) At this point, this is a case where you might need to go above her head, get some coworkers together, or something.

      Now that you’re out of the immediate crisis, I’d suggest finding a way to review the pattern. I can’t speak for your situation directly, but if it affects a group, you might want to do this together. If it affects just you, you might want to go over her head unless you’re comfortable enough mentioning it in a one on one. Focus on the fact that this happens regularly, and doesn’t seem to be getting fixed, in any case.

  29. CTT*

    I think that you and your husband should figure out more specifics before you start looking at loans. I wouldn’t start looking at the numbers until he’s more definite about what he wants to do (law school has different costs than an MBA which is different from engineering). I didn’t start looking into loans until I narrowed down the list of schools and found out more about the salary for the area I was interested in practicing in. TotesMaGoats has good advice on what to do when getting a loan, but the “is it worth it” question is harder to answer if your plan is vague.

    fwiw, I am in my early 30s and in the first year of paying off my law school loans and it’s not my favorite thing to do, but it’s fine.

  30. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

    Any folks in academia have advice or resources for turning a resume into a CV? I’ve looked around at several websites and templates but I still can’t wrap my head around how long it should be, what should be included, and what I need to add or remove. What do hiring managers care the most about when they look at a CV? I’m in public libraries and applying for some academic positions, so if anyone has library-specific resources that would be awesome.

    1. dear liza dear liza*

      If you’re applying for an academic librarian job- we use CV/resume pretty interchangably. The big difference is that you want to be complete in your history so you don’t need to keep it to 1-2 pages. Mine’s currently 10 pages. The categories I have:

      Education
      Professional Experience (includes 4-5 bullets of description for each position)
      Awards
      Publications
      Presentations
      Professional Organizations
      Academic Service

      1. LibrarianJ*

        Seconding dear liza dear liza’s comment about using CV/resume fairly interchangeably in academic libraries. Mine is only 4 pages (I’m still early-career, and non-TT) and I currently have sections for:

        Education
        Training & Certifications
        Publications
        Presentations
        Professional Experience
        Research Experience [research assistant work I’ve done outside of libraries]
        Paraprofessional, Extracurricular & Volunteer Experience [still relevant to libraries, but not high-level]
        Awards & Honors
        Professional Service
        Skills [e.g., library and statistical software]

        This has expanded over time, though, and I’ll adjust for specific positions just as I would for a ‘normal’ resume.

        1. LibrarianJ*

          I would add, though, that it might be good to pay attention to whether a particular position you’re applying to has faculty status or not. We do not have faculty status here, and while I used this CV to get my job without a problem, when I’ve served on search committees we’ve been far less interested in some of this than I imagine faculty and/or tenure-track librarian committees might be.

      2. Iron Chef Boyardee*

        “we use CV/resume pretty interchangably”

        I thought a CV (curriculum vitae) was a resume. If they’re not, how do they differ?

        1. tamarack & fireweed*

          Basically, there’s no length limit on an academic CV. All publications are there. Every grant you ever got. All invited talks at least. The expectation for a CV is 4+ pages, for a resume 1-2.

    2. just an average bookie*

      Are you familiar with open cover letters dot com? It’s library/archives specific. It was very helpful for me in early career!

    3. A Cataloger*

      When I moved from public to academic, I used my resume. Even moving from one small academic to a medium one I used a resume, since that’s what I had. I now have more of a CV, since I need it for annual reviews/tenure and I’m using my university’s official CV format, but other than a few places it doesn’t go back further than my current job.

      I’ll also be honest and say that I found it easier to move to a smaller academic institution just because there are still some prejudices (and I’ve seen it going the other way too) about public vs academic librarianship.

    4. Bibliovore*

      I moved from Public to School to Academic.
      The CV thing is mind boggling.
      The formatting is hugely important.
      First thing. My resume ( 20 year career) translated in to CV went from 2.5 pages to 14.
      What Dear Liza said.
      No that isn’t a typo. In a resume one might put “invited speaker: ALA, BookExpo, ComicCon NY”
      Heading Invited Presentations
      On the CV- List each one with the date, conference spelled out- American Library Association. etc.then talk title then city.

      And as a librarian- good transferrable skills from public to academic. Inter departmental collaboration, Class visits, bibliographic instruction, community engagement, collection development, an understanding of intellectual freedom. Cultural competency. Programming. Web skills, Social media. Anything to do with public relations and marketing.

    5. tamarack & fireweed*

      I think your direction is easier than the other way around. (I’ve gone back and forth now!). But I’m not experienced with what’s done in libraries. In my CV, Education is first (one line per degree, more if you have a thesis title that’s relevant for the job you’re applying for). I list Research Experience, Teaching Experience and Professional Experience separately, but that’s just because of my checkered career. Ideally, you have just one point, Appointments or Professional Experience. Then, in an order that looks logical: Publications (with sub-categories if applicable — I have Thesis, Peer-reviewed articles, and Book chapters and Extended abstracts), (Selected) Presentations, Academic teaching and advising, Awards and grants, Professional organization, Outreach and service. The latter for example could be conferences co-organized, talks given to non-academic audiences (those do NOT go under Presentations, except when the job has an explicit outreach component, in which case I’d make a sub-category there — and this might again be different for librarians). Good luck!

  31. Boredatwork*

    I’m on week 2 of a new job and I have nothing to do which I would can be normal, but my coworker who started the same day as me has already been given projects and work to while I just sit here on my phone. I have asked my manager and coworker everyday for something to do and I get the same response of there is nothing I can do. I’m wanting to quite because I find it quite ridiculous that there is work my coworker but not me.

    1. Havarti*

      So what exactly were you hired for? A new project starting later in the year? If your manager can’t give you an answer, find another job.

      1. Boredatwork*

        We were both hired for the exact same role as business analyst for a newly formed department. There are multiple projects currently on but according to others there is nothing I can help in except build an excel report, which I’ve already done and took an hour to do.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        If your manager can’t give you an answer, find another job.

        This is what I did when my last manager pulled this stunt. I started looking off and on at the six month mark and created my own work projects in the interim. I didn’t start getting interest from other employers until I’d been there a year (I was a career changer with little experience in this new line of work), and didn’t leave until four months later. It was the longest 17 months of my life at that company – Boredatwork, you have my sympathy.

    2. WellRed*

      Don’t sit there on your phone if you can use the computer instead to read AAM or whatever. The phone always looks like goofing off (I know, this is horribly unfair, given that you want to work).

    3. Zombie Unicorn*

      Does she have different skills to you?

      Can you spend time learning about the company, reading documentation etc?

    4. AbcZyz*

      I can think of several reasons for your situation ranging from:

      1. Coworker has special skills that were usable right away
      2. Coworker has a regulatorily required certification that you don’t (meaning you are on ice until they can send you for training)
      3. They have a specific project in mind for you and don’t want you to become too busy.
      4. They hired two employees then realized they didn’t need two.
      5. They hired you without the background check being fully completed, found red flags after you accepted and were told to keep you on the sidelines until they could dig more.
      6. They are discriminating against you for something (age, race, gender, medical conditions, etc)

      Depending which one it is you may or may not get an answer. But I would recommend talking to your boss again. If they tell you there is nothing for you again ask straight out. “Why?” Or “When will there be?”

  32. Burnt Out*

    It seems like when you’re burnt out at a job, the advice is to search for a new job. But my question is, how do you gather up the mental energy to job search and interview when your self esteem is shattered because of your job? How are you supposed to “sell” yourself to prospective employers when you feel like a failure because you’re burnt out at your current job?

    1. Armchair Analyst*

      Pay for it. Get a resume coach or writer. Ask friends to help you with cover letters. Take medical leave from your job if needed.

    2. Ruffingit*

      I’ve been there. It’s incredibly difficult. What helped me was taking vacation days so I’d have three day weekends where I could rest for a couple of days and in those days, I would do little pieces of job search stuff such as update the resume. Just spend a few minutes on that a day or whatever. It helped me to break it up into pieces.

      Also, if you have coworkers who are in the same position and you feel you can talk with them, do so. That helped me so much, I had a group of five people I was able to talk to about my feelings who were also my coworkers and they did the same. It was incredibly cathartic and helped me get to a place where I could begin to rise up from the ashes.

      If you can afford, therapy can be extremely helpful as well to just work through the burn out issues.

      1. Burnt Out*

        I am getting therapy and medication, fortunately, although I think I need to up the dosage of the medication I’m taking. I have talked with a coworker, but his situation is a little different than mine (he has different responsibilities but is still frustrated by the current state of things).
        I probably should take more vacation days, but we’re very short staffed right now so it’s difficult to take care of myself without feeling like I’m screwing over the rest of my team (I work in software support).

    3. Havarti*

      Therapy for the self-esteem? Take time off if finances allow it? In my case, I left my horrible job without having a new one lined up. I know it’s easier to get a job when you have a job but I wasn’t in a good position to do that. I hunted for jobs for about 4 months, used the time to do work around the house – ripped up a lot of old carpeting.

      1. Burnt Out*

        It’s tempting for sure. I just don’t think I could leave my coworkers in the lurch right now… I am getting therapy though, I should have mentioned that in my original comment.

        1. Havarti*

          I hear ya about not wanting to leave your coworkers in a lurch but here’s the thing: you gotta take care of yourself first and foremost. On a plane, they always tell you to put on your own oxygen mask first before you even put one on your kid. Don’t hang around burning yourself out even more just because the workplace is in crisis mode. You say you’re short-staffed above. What’s your employer doing about that? Are they looking to hire more people? Because if not, you will continue to be short-staffed and more people will leave as they, too, burn out. Don’t be the last person left on the Titanic, trying to bail the water out with a leaky bucket.

      2. Psych0Metrics*

        I resigned and ended up job hunting for a year and it ended up working out in the end. Maybe your finances won’t allow that, but you’ll be in a much better place to focus on your job search if old job isn’t currently burning you out.

    4. writelhd*

      does it help to list the things that you have at least learned as part of your burnout? Things about your job that frustrate you, what that has taught you about work or management or dealing with people or whatever, that you could at least apply in a future situation? Even if it becomes a wish list of who you wish you were or how you wish your environment was, it can start a spark of hope to see yourself recognizing and learning from your work experiences.

      And in practicality, feeling like a “failure” is often a sign of anxiety and/or a sick system, not the real truth. Someone who makes mistakes is not a failure…often mistakes are required learning steps. And someone who doesn’t thrive in a system that has a lot of dysfunction isn’t a failure either…but she could be somebody who’s seen how things *don’t* work so now has better perspective on how things *could* work better.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      For me I was able to use it as my “escape plan” and reminding myself that I have to escape that nonsense, so I really got a good heavy dose of “Fake it until you make it” rolling. It’s easier said than done though but sometimes you have to ignore the sinking pit in your stomach and heavy heart and say “This is to get me to safety, I have to fight.”

      Just like how you learn to smile even though you feel like breaking down into tears. Just like how you keep quiet when your boss is doing awful ridiculous things. You chew it down and you explode elsewhere. Then you gather yourself up and you brush yourself off to get the ef outta there!

      Try to rewire your thinking. You’re not a failure because one job sucks. They suck and that’s not your fault. They used you. They abused you. This isn’t your fault. which is of course what therapy is supposed to help you do but sometimes even therapy won’t help you there.

      Stay close to the people you love and trust, they will help you through this.

    6. Poppy*

      I made an effort to search/write cover letters & do applications in chunks.
      Searching was easy, I could do it when I was having a bad day and totally miserable, sent myself the links and called it done. Doing it then (literally just scrolling job postings) helped me feel like there was something waiting and I had to be ready for it.
      For the rest – I applied for jobs right after finishing something fun or right before as a bribe/reward. It also meant I was in a good mindset beforehand. Instead of grinding out a letter after a bad day at work I would plan to work on it right after seeing friends/going running someplace I loved/reading a good book/planning a trip.
      That was actually really helpful for me because it reminded me that there was life outside my burnout and horrible job AND put me in a frame of mind to be hopeful about new possibilities!

      I applied for my current role on a whim after my mom had been in town and we’d had a really fun night. I saw this listing on my train ride to see her, applied the next morning happy & full of good energy and heard from the hiring manager 24 hours later.
      good luck!

    7. Double A*

      The thinking that you’re not able to take any time off is the burn out talking. When I was burnt out at a job, and did not take any time off (which is genuinely hard in teaching, and actually puts more work on you because you have to write sub plans so it was almost less work to just keep coming in), I ended up having what I can only describe as a nervous breakdown and was unable to finish the year. My doctor and therapist put me on leave, during which I spent weeks in bed.

      You’ll be more help to your coworkers if you’re better rested when you’re there, and you might have some energy for a job search. Like, I know it’s so easy to dismiss the “take time off” advice, but I wanted to tell you my story to give you a possible consequence of not taking time off.

      After my rest time I regained confidence in myself, got another job, and am still teaching. I am very aware of my limits and needs in order to make this a sustainable career for myself and am unapologetic about maintaining those boundaries.

  33. VictoriaQ*

    Some of you guys might remember that I’ve pretty consistently complained about my job, but that should be going down… because I got a new job! I’m really hopeful about this new place, the people seem really nice, and I should have a steady 8 hours of work every day instead of a piecemeal of three different jobs that somehow still doesn’t fill my hours.

    (Also it’s salaried! So I get to work 9-5.)

  34. Watermelon M*

    Ok so… respecting your seniors at work. When and how? I ultimately am always respectful to anyone I meet (ie, polite, cordial) and especially to those older than me because of my culture. You never question your elders nor do you back talk them. Well, this has carried into work, but I’m noticing well…some of my seniors are really…mean.

    One of my senior coworkers (we are the same level position wise, but she has been here for 15 years) insist I say “yes ma’am” when I speak to her, not talk back to her unless she finds it warranted, and I’m also supposed to not really ask her for favors (I once asked her if she could grab me the pen next to her and pass it over. A damn pen. That’s a favor apparently.) She’s out of line in my mind, but keeps reminding me she’s my senior. No one questions her behavior because she’s been here the longest and is not afraid about arguing you to death on this. This is the case where I believe respect is earned and lady, you are not my auntie or mom! I don’t have to ma’am you at all!

    What’s the best way of going about this? My boss is hands off here, I think she’s even scared of this coworker. How do you treat your senior coworkers?

    1. Ruffingit*

      That is crazy. If the boss is hands off, you might either go above their head, or before that nuclear option, let her know you won’t be doing that. Period. You aren’t explaining it, you’re just going to say No, I won’t be calling you ma’am. That’s not appropriate in the workplace. Done. No need to say anything else.

      Senior colleagues to me have never expected such a thing and I would never give it. That’s not an acceptable way to behave.

      1. Watermelon M*

        I have responded with a “I don’t say ma’am except to my parents and grandparents.” In which she said nothing but still insists I call her ma’am every moment afterwards. I think I must ignore at this point, but it is ingrained in me to respect my elders, that I started to question if *I* was being disrespectful. Glad I’m not crazy. There is no one to go above my boss (I mean, there is, but based off other incidents, they would not care.) I’ll just……ignore her. Ugh.

        1. blackcat*

          I’d start a Karen-is-a-racist journal.
          Start documenting.
          Karen insisted I call her ma’am [date, time]
          Karen spoke to Young White Lady and did not insist on being called ma’am [date, time]

          Start correcting her. “Since other colleagues call you Karen, I’m going to go with that.” “Unless you expect everyone, regardless of age to call you ma’am, I’m not going to call you ma’am.”
          If you ever get the sense that Karen is having an influence on how your performance is received, pull out the journal and call a lawyer.

          1. ...*

            Can we just STOP with the Karen thing?! I know it’s a catch all meme but some people are actually named that and might not enjoy their name being synonymous with annoying racist complain to the manager bitch. Seriously it’s so gross and it’s not ok to sh*t on people for no reason. And no I’m not named Karen I’m just so sick of using a name that people are given, do not choose, to be used to derogatory!

        2. Clisby*

          This is just bizarre in a workplace (and I’m from the deep south, where I was raised to say “sir” and “ma’am” and did my children the favor of not raising them that way.) If you happen to work for the military, or a military contractor, maybe sir and ma’am are required, but I really can’t think of any other example today. Especially to a co-worker – I can imagine cases where customer service people are told to use “sir” and “ma’am.”

          It’s fine to respect your elders, but that really shouldn’t come into play at work. That’s applicable when you’re talking about your grandparents, or the next-door-neighbors who knew you since you were a baby, or the old ladies at church.

          1. Watermelon M*

            I definitely do not work for the military! Or anything related! I do work for local government in a conservative area, so there’s a lot of reverence for military. Everyone has a family member who serves. But I’m glad I’m not alone in thinking this is weird. Just too much. Too. Much.

            1. Clisby*

              Well, from this 65-year-old white woman born and raised in the south – you are not weird. Your co-worker is weird.

    2. Armchair Analyst*

      I’m in the South.
      Is there, um, a racial or cultural issue here? I have never seen or experienced this. Is she like this to EVERYONE?! Wow. Can you workaround her – i.e., not engage with her AT ALL?

      1. Watermelon M*

        We’re both from the south (but not living there.) Perhaps it could be a racial thing, I e definitely considered. She’s an older white woman and I’m a younger woman of color. I try to engage with her as little as I can but unfortunately she is the gatekeeper for a portion of my work. Just a few minutes ago she handed me a folder and I said “Thanks Karen” And she followed it with a “That’s Ms. Karen.” I CANNOT OOH I WAS ABOUT TO THROW THAT FOLDER RIGHT BACK

        1. Havarti*

          OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! D: How does she treat other younger people in the office and are they POC or not? I thought maybe you were in another country where respecting elders is a major thing.

        2. DC Weekend*

          Oh hell no! With those additional details, it’s clear Karen is just on a racist power trip. You owe her nothing.

        3. blackcat*

          Okay, white lady here: I think this is some racist bullshit. Old white lady doesn’t think young WOC is being respectful enough. Does she ask young white women to call her Ms. Karen? If not it’s some extra racist bullshit.

          How do you think it would go over (with your boss/HR) if you sat down and said, “Karen, a work, we are peers. I treat everyone with respect, you included. I’m going to address you the way other colleagues address you, which is using your first name.”

          Then I’d shoot an email to your boss saying “Karen has been asking me to call her Ms. Karen and ma’am, but not asking other coworkers to do that. I found it really off putting, so I told her I’d continue to treat her with respect but that I was going to address her the same way other colleagues do. I think I’ve handled it, but I just wanted you to be in the loop since Karen has been weird with me in past.”

          If you don’t think that would go over well with your boss, I say avoid her as much as possible.

          1. Hope*

            Another white lady, cosigning this. It’s racist bullshit if she’s only demanding this of POC coworkers. Even if she’s demanding it of everyone, it’s still bullshit and beyond rude. Also, she might be older, but she’s not “senior” in a work sense. She’s a coworker. She doesn’t get to demand an extra title.

            I’m from the South, and while it’s totally a thing that people will often call someone “Ms. First Name”, it’s NEVER anything you demand/request from people. It’s what you might expect your friends’ kids to call you, or for you to call someone (usually super old–like my neighbor’s mom who moved in with her–neighbor was Melissa, but her mom was Ms. Joan) but never something you *tell* people to call you. Other people get to decide if you deserve the respect it confers.

            And it’s especially not cool in a work environment. The only exception I can think of is sometimes like, the church secretary or a small family business owner might be known to everyone as “Ms. Mildred” or “Mr. Jimmy” because s/he’s been around for decades or something, but that’s usually a term of “respect” given by those working with Mildred/Jimmy, not because Mildred/Jimmy insists everyone to call them that. There’s a familial/friendly tinge to it in that scenario that is usually better avoided in most workplaces.

            I bet anything that Karen’s insecure. Her “seniority” wouldn’t come up so often if she wasn’t, and even if she’s not aware of the casual racism inherent in her demand that POC call her “Ms.Karen”, I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s done/said other racist stuff, possibly without realizing it.

            I recommend you just call her Karen and ignore the whole “Ms. Karen” demand.

            1. EJane*

              Agreed. I feel nauseous thinking about this insane lady and how profoundly wrong this is on how many levels.

              You could also just stop calling her by name, period. “Excuse me, could you hand me that?” “thank you.” “Good morning”.

          2. NW Mossy*

            Ugh, this Karen. I’m furious at her for behaving this way in the first place, and even more furious with Watermelon’s boss for being so spineless that he won’t even intervene on racism so obvious you could see it from space.

            I know that sometimes in management it can be tough to know when behavior has crossed a line, and it takes some time to weigh whether or not to raise it (like my real-life example of having to coach an employee about his flatulence). This? Is not one of those times. This is the easy layup, dude! It will never be more clear-cut than this! GAH!

          3. cmcinnyc*

            Uh yeah no. Another white lady saying you are not crazy, Karen is crazy. I did work with some very formal folks once (from another country) who had to be called Mr. Last Name and Ms. Last Name, but you know what? They called me Ms. Last Name! See how that works when everyone is on the same footing?

        4. Watermelon M*

          @everyone I’m the only POC in this office! And the youngest by 10 years and newest on the team. She does not require the others to use this language with her, however, she does always mention to others on the team that she is their senior and deserves respect (why she brings this up more than once is beyond me… insecurity? Power trip? Either way most people are just sort of afraid of her.) She has mentioned to me that her daughter is about the same age as me in passing conversation. Either way I am over it. My boss would like me to keep the peace with her, as she likes to keep the peace with her (there’s a running joke that Karen is our actual boss.)

          1. blackcat*

            …. I think there may be a reason why there are no other POC in the office.

            Karen is a missing stair. She’s bad to everyone but worst to you because you are the lowliest person in her mind.

            I think going with something like “You are not my auntie or mom!” in a cheerful tone (this is key) if you can pull it off is ideal. Cheerfully say you’ll treat her how others do and move on.

            And then, frankly, maybe job search unless this job is otherwise awesome and/or you can minimize your contact with Karen. It sounds like there’s dysfunction in this office that has to be manifesting in different ways.

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Could you say to your boss, “I’m certainly willing to do my part to have harmony with Karen, but as the only person of color in the office and the only one being told to call Karen ‘ma’am,’ I feel strongly that I’m not going to do that. I will of course address her with the same respect we all show each other, but that means ‘Karen’ like everyone else calls her.” Or for that matter, spell it out: “There’s a really ugly history of white women insisting people of color call them ‘ma’am’ and I’m not going to do that. It hasn’t escaped me that Karen doesn’t ask anyone else in the office to do it. I will of course address her politely as Karen.”

            I think you need to call out the racism here. (Although I also know I say that from a position of privilege and it can be a more complicated calculation than that, particularly if your office hasn’t shown much openness to racial equity issues.)

            2. Watermelon M*

              Ah thank you for your chiming in Alison! I could possibly say the first version, I know for a fact that the second version (which is what I would love to say) would anger my boss, based off her previous reactions on me bringing up culture/race related concerns due to past actions on my team. I will definitely consider bringing this up in HR, but… I don’t know. I brought up an incident with him before as another coworker continuously made ignorant remarks, and it was brushed off as an interpersonal issue. I will certainly start with the first response and see if that helps any. I hope so.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Ugh, I’m sorry! It sounds horrible. Another option is to just say to your boss, “I will of course address her politely — as Karen, like everyone else does.” I doubt your boss will say, “No, you must call her ma’am.” (Although if she does, feel free to email me directly and I’d be glad to try to help figure it out from there.)

              2. blackcat*

                This sounds like a really difficult situation.

                I would start documenting behavior, because if you don’t give Karen the deference she’s demanding and she makes it difficult for you to do your work in retaliation, you might want to take other steps. It seems your workplace has decided that the casual racism of their employees is a *you* problem and not a *them* problem, and I think steps to protect yourself if they try to resolve the problem by disciplining you are warranted.

              3. Watermelon M*

                @Alison, thank you! I definitely will email you if it goes that route. I hope not. @blackcat I have been documenting as much as possible! It’s the most disappointing thing, when I try to bring up how much these kind of things bother me and other ignorant comments about race made by coworkers, that it becomes a “be less sensitive” thing. I feel powerless. But documenting everything in case I need proof.

                1. Fortitude Jones*

                  You need a new job – period. As a black woman, I have never been subjected to this kind of fuckery in my entire working career. Karen is completely out of pocket, your team and boss are complicit, and this shit sounds exhausting. I don’t know how you deal with this day in and day out – you’re a much better person than I am. I would have been cursed Karen’s ass out.

          4. MynamereallyISKaren*

            “I’d be happy to call you Ms. Karen. And from now on, please call me Ms. Watermelon.”

        6. Jaid*

          Man, that would set me off, but I acknowledge my white privilege and understand that saying to her outright this:

          “Karen, you realize that a white woman telling a POC to call her “ma’am” or Ms. anything, really, is inappropriate, especially since we’re co-workers and you’re not my boss. I notice you don’t demand this of the others, either. Which means you’re singling out the only woman of color in the workplace deliberately. I’m wondering if you thought of how this looks to everybody?”

          …could set drama off.

          That said, however you deal with the situation, I wish you well.

          1. blackcat*

            I once did something that was basically the equivalent of that. I felt more able because it was when I was teaching k12 and a teacher had said something really unacceptable about a student of color.

            It’s one thing for a white person to call out another white person on stuff like that, and much harder for a POC to call out a white person.

            Similarly, I really appreciated the time when a NewDude in my department asked me to get coffee, and another guy starred him down and said something like, “Did you really just ask the one woman in the room to get your coffee? Wow. Get your own damn coffee, and maybe don’t be so sexist.” It came off as aggressive from that guy, but it would have been a Really Big Deal if I had said it. Being a good ally often involves refusing to be a bystander to stuff like this, which can be hard and uncomfortable, but it is much less uncomfortable than being the recipient of racist/sexist/-ist bullshit.

          2. The New Wanderer*

            This and the other scripts would also be gold if said by a white coworker who happens to overhear this “You call me MS Karen” BS.

            Watermelon M, is there any chance you can find an ally/witness who’d be willing to either back you up with Karen, HR or your manager? They’re all dropping the ball in their own special ways, but I think it’d be much harder for your manager or HR to also shrug off a fellow white person who also says this is unacceptable behavior. It’s gross but if it works to get them to accept you’re not just supposed to ignore casual racism because it might make things uncomfortable for the racist white person, then maybe it’s worth it?

    3. DC Weekend*

      Outside of being in the military or working at DOD/Pentagon, saying ma’am and sir just isn’t a thing in the workplace. She may have been there longer, but you are all equal adults. Just because she says you have to call her ma’am doesn’t mean you actually have to. She is (literally) not the boss of you.

      1. Mama Bear*

        Agreed. She may be older but if she’s not your boss, then you should treat her the way you treat everyone at that level and vice versa. If she’s blocking your work, definitely bring it up to your boss. Document, document, document. She doesn’t have to like you, but she needs to let you do your job and respect you as a fellow employee. She’s being petty at best and racist and hostile at most.

    4. WellRed*

      I”d be so tempted to respond with “yes, I realize you’re older than me” but that’s probably not helpful.

      1. Watermelon M*

        HA. I don’t know, that’s really tempting to use in rebuttal at the level of ridiculousness she’s shown me… so… hmm.

    5. Havarti*

      I can’t speak for anywhere outside the U.S. but using “ma’am” or “sir” for co-workers regardless of age isn’t a thing where I am. I’ve been at my job for almost as long as her and I would never do that to someone. The fact your boss won’t help you here is not encouraging. Your options are pretty much use “ma’am” as she wants or don’t and accept the fact you’re likely burning a bridge. I’m assuming your boss would prefer you do the former to keep the peace rather than the latter. Whatever you choose to do, I would avoid her as much as possible.

    6. Anonymous Poster*

      I call people ‘sir’ and ‘ma’am’ (and generally quickly get a laugh and a, “call me “), but demanding it is not okay, and shows a huge lack of security on her part. Throwing in that she’s only requiring the non-white woman in the office call her that is seriously not okay.

      Maybe your boss misinterpreted when you went to him before. That shouldn’t (though sadly probably does) matter.

      “Karen is only requiring that I, the only person of color on the team, call her ‘ma’am’. She does not require any white person on the team to do this. Will you talk with her and tell her that this is not okay, since it is a race-based behavior?”

      It sounds like your boss won’t do that, so another option is more along the lines of, “I’m giving you a heads up that I’m talking to HR about this particular issue.”

      Sorry you’re going through this nonsense.

    7. Double A*

      This seemed really irritating based on the first reading, but now knowing the racial dynamics of this situation this is straight-up hostile workplace territory. I am so sorry you’re on the receiving end of this and have the burden of navigating your office’s messed up race dynamics. It should NOT be on you to address this behavior, but plenty of white people are completely oblivious to this. What’s worst, many will get extremely defensive if you bring it up.

      Regardless of how or if you decide to address this, definitely document every instance she demands you address her subserviently, and every time she does not demand it of someone else who is more junior or younger than her (and, probably, maler and whiter than you).

      One thing you could say when she demands you use a title is to say, “I find it most respectful to follow office norms, which is that we address each other by first name, so I’m going to do that unless Boss tells me otherwise.” You could add, “If it makes you most comfortable to address me by “Ms.” or “Ma’am,” though, let me know” buuuuuut I’m guessing that won’t go over well.

    8. TL -*

      Are you Southern yourself?

      There’s three basic kinds of sir/ma’ams. There’s the one she’s asking for here, respectful/subordinate (usually child/younger family to elder).
      There’s the cheerful, neutral one used for emphasis, adult to adult, across, up, and down power lines, like a celebratory “Yes ma’am, we got that done today!”
      Then there’s the adult to child one that is used to indicate a child is about to get in trouble: “No sir, you may not have a cookie.”

      It’s all tone based and if it was me, I would be strongly tempted to only use the third tone with her and ma’am her like I was talking to a child, intermeditely with not ma’am’ing her at all. The trick here would be to have the exact right tone and only use it when saying “yes/no ma’am”. My guess is she’d stop asking you to ma’am her completely, but you’d have to really nail your tone 100% of the time.

      The other (probably better) option is to do what you have been doing, ignoring her requests completely. If someone is willing to step in for you, a shocked, “I beg your pardon?” in response to her request for a “ma’am” and a follow up “that’s highly inapropriate, Karen. She’s your coworker, not your granddaughter” would probably go a long way.

    9. Bibliovore*

      Yikes, Yikes, and more Yikes. Yes document but it seems that the whole environment is one of misery. Is it just Karen? I would be tempted not to address her as Ma’am or Karen. I would be tempted to not address her at all by name and if I did it would be by her full name. as in Mrs. or Ms. Black, here are the reports you needed for todays meeting. If anyone asks why you are doing this, state that Mrs. Black requested that you show respect and this is the best way to do so.
      I had a peer with more time in my profession but with actually less experience who “demanded” my respect and in our time together, he became Mr. Green with exaggerated courtesy.
      Recently I heard “don’t wrestle with a pig. You will just get dirty and the pig likes it ” Karen is the pig.

    10. Jemima Bond*

      This is appalling. I was in the position of being a similar amount older (and that amount more experienced in the field) than some co-workers at my level until I was promoted in the last year. If I had even hinted that they should call me anything but Jemima/not question me/not ask me to pass them a pen I would have been taken aside for a severe talking to by my manager and be in no doubt that if it happened even one more time there would be Severe Consequences. Now I manage three people and I would be horrified if anyone started with the ma’am-ing. HORRIFIED! Especially as one of my reports is of Indian heritage – the idea that I was trying to pull some colonial days-of-the-Raj crap would be…shameful to say the least.

      If this woman were behaving like this in my office there’d be a grievance filed against her so fast she wouldn’t know what had hit her.

  35. Quill*

    Taking bets on whether this thread will actually get longer than today’s five questions.

    Work related: anyone got any advice for managing contacts in outlook? I’m particularly looking for a way that I could notate a contact that I might use like once a quarter “Pomona Sprout – Does certificates of bean inspection” and “Minerva McGonnagall – Contact for Letter of Acceptance to Hogwarts.”

    Been keeping everyone in a word document and it is most definitely not a magical experience.

    1. Armchair Analyst*

      I put in the “Notes” section of the Outlook Contact. Also you can put them in Groups for your eyes only. So you could have one group for Inspectors, one group for Boarding School Applications, for example.

      1. Quill*

        Thanks. Still learning Outlook, as it’s the part of Office Suite that you don’t automatically get experience with during school and I honestly have not had to use it for more than in-workgroup file sharing when I worked in R&D.

  36. RMNPgirl*

    My department is going to have a restructure in September. I have no idea what is going to be involved, we just keep hearing bits and pieces. I’m not worried, I’ve made myself pretty indispensable and I’m the only one with the credentials needed for my current position so I know I’m not going anywhere. I just hate not knowing what it’s going to look like and how my job duties may change. There’s a good possibility of good change but there’s also a possibility of not so good change. Every time I see my director, who does know what’s going on, I just want to yell “tell me what’s going to happen, I can’t take it anymore!”

    1. The New Wanderer*

      Hey, we just got an email that we’re kind of doing the same thing in the near future! I also feel like I’m pretty safe right now, but I have no idea if there are going to be big changes in the lower-down management reporting structure or if it’s the usual noise followed by minimal change at the exec level. I really don’t want yet another first level manager but it has been almost 6 months since the last changeover so based on my history, I’m due.

  37. She's One Crazy Diamond*

    Has anyone here started an online store and if so, any advice you’d be willing to share? I am firm on starting my own website and not doing Etsy or something similar. Thank you!

    1. Miss May*

      I *think* squarespace allows you the ability to sell stuff through a website. Though, this knowledge is based completely on podcast ads, heh.

    2. Art3mis*

      Shopify is pretty easy to use, I really liked it and it isn’t too expensive when you’re just starting out.

      1. Making Up Usernames is Fun*

        I second Shopify, easy to use and not very expensive. Lots of large companies use it as well, so it scales well. Plus lots of nice free templates to really customize the heck out of your store.

        Good luck with it!!

    3. The Book Roadie*

      I just moved from Etsy to my own little web shop. I was already using Square to take payments while vending, and since they offer a basic storefront, I am using that. If you’re willing to pay you can get more features, but the free one is fine for me so far. Square is at SquareUp dot com, I’ve been really happy with them.

  38. AnonymouslyFuming*

    I have been looking for a new position internally for a year and a half. Basically since my new manager started. Nothing that I have applied for have been quite right. I have too little experience, I have too much experience, blah blah. Well, finally a job posting that is perfect for me popped up! FINALLY. I applied and did not get an interview. I spoke with a friend about my frustration and found out that the intern interviewed for this position! An intern with 3 months of experience was granted an interview and I was not. Then I found out, my manager was on the interview panel. A little background on her, she is the most unsupportive, condescending, lazy manager I have ever had (and I have had a lot of bad ones). My former coworker left without anything lined up just to get away from her. I honestly think I did not get an interview because she badmouthed me (most likely because she does not want to train yet another replacement). I am anticipating getting the official rejection email soon, and I want to ask the hiring manager about this.

    Now for my question: How on earth do I word this email? The hiring manager is not someone I have worked with directly. We have a culture where I can ask for feedback on how to make myself a more viable candidate, which I can start the email off with (but to be honest, I was 100% perfect for this role, seriously. And I have great performance reviews to back it up!). I need some wording to find out if my suspicions are true. Help/scripts so very appreciated!

    1. Sighhh*

      My 2 cents: if you’re looking to eventually continue on internally, there’s no “classy” way to ask directly if this manager badmouthed you. In companies with cultures where you can ask for feedback, they’re also pretty relaxed enough to informally ask other people of their opinion of you, or relay a pointed e-mail back to the manager. I’d just suggest asking what you could do in the future, and if there is any feedback you think would be helpful for future applications. Give it some space, and don’t let your disappointment or emotions cloud an e-mail that should be sent on a purely professional basis.

      For what it’s worth–companies can get a lot of important experience when working with interns that later makes them excellent candidates for hire. They learn if they’re responsible, quick-thinking, willing to lean in wherever they’re needed, and if they exemplify brand values and culture. Certain aspects of jobs, especially lightly technical, can be taught, but soft skills and personality traits like the aforementioned ones are often inherent, and bad employees can show their true colors in as little as a month (or weeks!) on the job. I wouldn’t discount an intern because she has 3 months of experience with my company. I would, however, think twice about an internal candidate who used a feedback e-mail to badmouth or insinuate a former manager was lying about them.

    2. AnonymouslyFuming*

      If it helps, my org is on a really big Ethics kick lately. Of course, we should always have been ethical but some big stuff came out about some executives that was so problematic is has been leaked to the press (obviously not trying to give too many details).

      Also, my manager is universally disliked by the others in our overall team. I do not think this hiring manager on the other team would tell her that I asked. He only invited her onto the panel because those of us unfortunate enough to work for her are responsible for duties that are pretty similar to the new position.

      There is someone who is a bit of a mentor to me who is quite friendly with the hiring manager. I could ask her advice as well on this.

      1. Sighhh*

        You could ask this mentor, but just be aware that your request could definitely appear way off base than you know it to be. To you, you’re just trying to inquire whether or not you had a fair chance because of an unlikable manager who could have badmouthed you. To someone else, it might seem you are insinuating that a badmouthing manager is the only possible reason why you wouldn’t have gotten an interview, to which you are entitled to over an intern. Just be cognizant of how it comes off, because it’s definitely coming off a little bit that way to an impartial third party.

        1. AnonymouslyFuming*

          Thanks for the warning but I was just giving background info. I will not be asking the questions the way it is worded here.

      2. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

        Curious–if she’s universally disliked by everyone on the overall team, I’m guessing you aren’t the only one trying to get out. Has anyone else made an internal transfer work, or did they all end up leaving to get away?

        1. AnonymouslyFuming*

          Unfortunately, only 2 of us actually work for her, the others are peers and people working for them. The coworker who replaced the one that left is already complaining to me about her. And this person walked out of their last job due to a terrible manager (who I actually used to work for as well! New/former coworker coming here was a coincidence or I would have warned her against it). So she has a history of walking out and I think this current manager is much, much worse.

    3. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      There’s another option here : Unofficial block of your transfer. Your manager may not be badmouthing you, but she could be saying something like, “it would really inconvenience my team to have to replace AnonymouslyFuming…”.

      Alternately, she may also have the option to toss applications at her discretion and she tossed yours before you even got a chance in the process.

      I’d have a convo with people I knew well off the record to see if that unofficial block can happen in your org, and I’d also send a “is there anything I can do to improve my candidacy” email to the Hiring Manager to see what she says. They might have something you haven’t thought of that’s a good explanation. The one that immediately comes to mind is they don’t want to pay your salary for the position (even though you are perfect) so they are looking to hire cheap. May not be that, though (and if it is, doubtful they’ll phrase it that way).

  39. WTF? NO!*

    Sigh. I’m so over working for people who think it’s totally appropriate to believe I can do someone else’s job…not in the sense of I don’t want to, but literally I can’t. That is to say, the job they want me to do requires a license I don’t have or skills I do not possess. Seriously, who says Well, can’t you just do it? No, no I cannot. There’s a reason people have to have licenses and certain degrees for particular jobs. GAH!!

    2. MsChanandlerBong*

      Sounds like when my old boss wanted me to use our admin’s notary stamp to notarize documents when the admin was out of the office. Sure, let me just commit that illegal act for you so I can keep my $12/hour job.

      1. PollyQ*

        Isn’t it part of the notary’s responsibilities to keep the stamp locked up securely so that isn’t even an option?

  40. the other kind of $ problem*

    I have a good problem, but it’s something that’s making me uncertain. And I feel uncomfortable even asking this.

    I work in a field that is known for paying poorly. This is a second career for me and when I first started, I was making very little money. A couple years ago, I got a new job that paid about 30% more than my previous job, and then a few months ago, I got another 22% increase on top of that. It also sounds like I’m going to be promoted within the next few months, which will probably come with some kind of increase (although I’m wondering how much more money they’re going to throw at me – it might be “only” 5-10% this time).

    The problem is that many of my friends in the field and acquaintances from our professional association often talk about the low pay, how they are struggling, how no one goes into this field to make money. In the past I commiserated with them and felt similarly, and had no expectations that I’d achieve the salary I’m at now. Now, I feel disingenuous acting like I’m in the same boat, but I also don’t want to brag or suggest that they could easily get a job at a higher salary.

    Any suggestions on how to navigate this in a sensitive way?

    1. Purt's Peas*

      I think you can still sympathize, and I think you should delicately mention that you’re making more money so you don’t feel as disingenuous. “I’m actually doing ok now–my new company actually pays a living wage and I’m getting promoted. Now I know it’s possible to be paid reasonably, I think it’s BS that so many jobs in field x are paid so badly.” You may find yourself out of these complaining conversations, but I think that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

  41. Emdashed*

    I could really use some help setting my own expectations around work with my boss.

    She is responsible for areas A, B, and C, but only has experience in A and B, whereas I’m an expert in C. So when she needs to communicate about C with people, she’ll ask me questions, ask for a one-pager, or bullet points. Next thing I know, I see my content verbatim in an email, presentation, etc.

    It’s not so much that I don’t feel valued—she signs my praises to all sorts of people—but there’s something about this particular behavior that really irritates me. She often cannot not talk about C in an informed way without my input first—when she tries, she doesn’t use the right terminology, or doesn’t describe goals or projects correctly. And to some extent, that’s ok—that’s why you hire good teams!—but seeing my words verbatim and not being included in meetings around C just really, really rubs me the wrong way.

    Is my hope that she’d say something like “I asked someone on the C team to pull this together” unreasonable? Is this just what people do for their bosses at that level? (If it helps for context, she’s an AVP and I’m a director.)

    1. Alianora*

      Would you like to be included in the C meetings? Maybe you can suggest that to her – it seems logical to me that a C expert should be included in a meeting about C.

      1. Zombie Unicorn*

        I thought this too.

        The thing is honestly, nobody else cares who pulled it together, even though it matters to you. But it would absolutely be reasonable to ask to be included in meetings.

    2. DC Weekend*

      In my office this is just something that we all do for the people above us. I have written many things that my boss has signed his name to. It doesn’t bother me. Part of being at a higher level is farming out work to others. I think people know my boss didn’t single handily pull together all of the information. As long as he recognizes my work, I’m fine.

    3. 867-5309*

      This is very, very common. Our job as employees to sometimes to provide the information our bosses need. I often draft emails my boss can send directly to make it even easier for them.

      Since your boss is singing your praises, then I wouldn’t worry too much about this.

    4. Oh No She Di'int*

      This isn’t the question you asked, but here’s what I think: I think there is a soupçon of disrespect for your boss here. Maybe it is well earned disrespect, but I definitely catch a whiff of it. My guess is that it’s galling to see your words used in this way because maybe there’s a slight sense that she’s faking it or doesn’t fully deserver her position in your eyes?

      I think it’s quite common to prepare communications for one’s higher ups. At that level, there is often no way to know all the details of what is happening on all of the teams below you, or to be versed in the finer points of every single job function. It sounds like her job is to recognize that information C is necessary, to know where to get it, and to get it to the people who need it in the way they need it. Which is a legitimate job function.

      The last thing I’d say here is that–depending on the circumstance–it might be very important to the business that she present a united front, that she look competent and well informed. A presentation full of “I got this from these people and that from those people” could tend to undermine her authority, which might matter if she’s presenting to, say, a customer, an investor, the public, a client, etc.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        I was attempting to say something similar and you articulated my thoughts perfectly and in a much more coherent fashion. It would look really out of place in a senior level meeting for your boss to talk about information about ‘C’ and then to add, “Btw Emdashed put together all this information for me.” Everyone else is going to look at your boss and think, “Duh, it’s called delegating.” You mentioned your boss is singing your praises so there isn’t anything squirrely going on.

      2. Emdashed*

        This has been a super helpful gut check, all — thank you. What I didn’t go into are some other issues around interpersonal relationships, fuzzy boundaries, and so forth. I think I’ve latched on to this particular thing as a somewhat concrete representation of deeper things making me uncomfortable.

        It’s funny—I’m always doing client-facing work that doesn’t have my name on it, of course, and that obviously never bugs me. It’s the internal communications I’m getting hung up on.

        In any case, I appreciate the sanity check!

        1. CM*

          In fairness, though, I don’t think it’s insane to be bothered if you’re the only person with any knowledge of area C and someone else is being called on to act as the expert in that area, no matter who it is. It’s implicitly sending a message that someone’s position on the org chart is more important than whether they’re best qualified to do a particular task. (While there might be times when it really, really needs to be a VP doing a presentation as opposed to a Director, it usually makes more sense to pick the person who’s best prepared to talk about — and field questions about — whatever the subject is).

          So, if you would rather be doing presentations yourself or going to particular meetings, I think it’s worth discussing whether that could be a possibility. And if the answer is no, it’s also worth probing to find out whether that’s because there’s a concern about how you handle presentations, questions, stakeholder interactions, etc and then arguing that you would like to get better at those things, if that’s the case.

      3. NW Mossy*

        I’ll echo this too. My own boss will sometimes ask me to wordsmith a tricky email for her, and I don’t look at that as her trying to pass off my work as hers. It’s about the two of us working together to produce the best possible result. Recently, she told a roomful of people “Mossy just makes my job so much easier,” and I take that as a high compliment.

        It’s explicitly good for me in a lot of other ways, too. It’s a clear signal that she trusts my opinion and my voice, and when she pulls me in on this stuff, it’s a chance for me to develop my skills. I eventually want to get to her level (I’m a manager, she’s a director), and chipping on her work only strengthens my candidacy for that one day, even if my name’s not directly on it.

    5. Double A*

      I don’t see this as a problem or abnormal– part of what we do for bosses, generally, is prepare information and resources for them.

      That said, if you feel like it may causes *problems* because she’s giving the impression that she personally knows this information, you could bring that up with her. Like, you could suggest it might help to include information in her presentations that you are the C expert and people should direct questions to you, or ask if it would be helpful for you to attend the C meetings so you can field more detailed or technical questions.

      But if this annoyance is just the manifestation of other interpersonal issues as you mention above, then definitely let this go and think about if there are ways to address the root of what’s bothering you!

      1. Emdashed*

        So this discussion has really made it click. My problem is not what she’s doing with my work—it’s all the other stuff. I thought about how I would feel if other people in the organization were doing it…and it would 100% not bother me. My feelings about this issue are totally being colored by unrelated things. I knew our working relationship was unusual; I guess I underestimated how much that’s bothering me.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Sincere question: Why would you need to be in meeting revolving around C? When you answer this question with specific talking points, you have then built a case to bring to your boss.

      “Boss, I would like to be involved in meeting regarding C because [reasons 1 through 4].

      But yes, we craft explanations, ideas, designs, etc and our bosses carry those things forward without us. Pretty normal. I think the step you are missing here is that it may seem like she is presenting stuff as “hers” but it’s not hers either. It belongs to the company. People who design things that later get patents are very aware of this stuff. The patent belongs to the company, even though it is their design.

      As long as she gives you credit, as long as she indicates she knows you are carrying things here, you are okay. If you want to attend meetings about C then line up reasons why this is a good idea and then ask her.

    7. Lynn Whitehat*

      Maybe she doesn’t know you want to go to the meetings. I’m a team lead at work, and I see part of my job as going to the yucky meetings to keep the rest of the team safe for productive work. I would be really surprised (but not averse!) if someone felt like I was taking away opportunities by not “letting” them go to meetings.

  42. Everdene*

    A couple of weeks back I mentioned to my manager that Oak an I are seriously considering a move to Head Office City. He told me they wouldn’t want to lose me and if we do move we will work something out.

    This week I heard that someone in Head Office is leaving and I pulled together all my bravery to email my manager and say I’m interested in this role (level up from mine but reports to same person). We have a chat scheduled Monday morning. Please send me any spare luck/wishes/bravery as I attempt to get myself a new job, 40% rise and the chance to keep an involvement with my current team.

    1. WellRed*

      Sending luck, but also, if you are in the US, do you need to double check that Monday meeting? It’s Labor Day.

  43. Anon because this is too identifying*

    I work in a multi-story building. There is one women’s bathroom and one men’s bathroom on each floor, and each bathroom has one accessible stall. The accessible stall in my bathroom has had an “out of order” sign for weeks. I don’t *need* it in an ADA kind of way, but my arthritic knees appreciate it, so I really missed it. I finally asked the person in charge when they thought it might be fixed, and they didn’t even know it was out of order. Apparently someone slapped a sign on the door but didn’t notify the appropriate people. {sigh}

    1. valentine*

      Unless this is worse than going to another floor: I would arrange with someone to guard the door while I used the other restroom, and I would happily do this for someone. Your need is more important than gender segregation. Also, ask your manager to light a fire under facilities or whoever’s tasked with repair. I think maybe you’re holding yourself to too high a standard. It sounds like you do need the height.

      1. Anon because this is too identifying*

        Well, it turns out that the day I notify the correct people is the day it gets fixed! Literally, after just a few hours.

  44. Super Anonywoman*

    Work and social media: so, a boss from a former ToxicJob friend requested me and I ignored it. I don’t feel bad about ignoring it, but my field is smaller and there can easily be overlaps in connections. I hope it doesn’t bite me later.

    On the same note, this former boss is friends with my friends too. Has anyone had similar situations? How do you navigate friendships with people who know the people who made your life so miserable? I’ve been coping by not staying in touch with them, but I really want to rekindle those friendships since I am in a much better place. How much is ok to tell OldBoss’ friends about how much OldPlace made me miserable, if it comes up?

    1. 8DaysAWeek*

      I have ex-family that fall into this toxic category. Not sure what platform you are talking about but I can speak to Facebook.
      I created a rule/group in Facebook for these people. They think we are still “friends” on FB but they can’t see anything I post other than my cover photo updates. To them, it just appears I am not that active on FB. And unfortunately I had to put people that did me no harm into this category too because I didn’t want them seeing things and then sharing it with the toxic people.
      And you can do the reverse. If there are people you are friends with but don’t want to see their posts, you can hide them.

    2. TechWorker*

      I don’t know about the other details of your relationship but I reckon ‘never responding’ is a totally valid way of dealing with friend requests you don’t want (they’ll forget, if they ever ask you can claim you didn’t see it or don’t use Facebook much, etc).

      I have at least two or three friend requests from junior colleagues who I *like* as people but may well end up managing and I just don’t want that. I’m already Facebook friends with one of my direct reports (since before I was promoted) and that’s one too many tbh!

    3. One More Opinion*

      Re the former friends, I think it’s great to try to reconnect with them, but I would probably avoid discussing the former toxic job and boss. I know it might be tempting, but that could bring a bad feeling into newly revived relationships — and you can’t be sure that they will hold what you share in confidence. Most of all, it sounds like all of that is in your past, and you have moved on — so it might make *you* feel better to keep conversations focused on the present and future, not looking back. :)

  45. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I don’t like the way my boss talks to clients sometimes. I don’t like the way he talks to me sometimes, either, but the dynamic is very different. Basically, I think he gets condescending in situations where he shouldn’t. To give as much of an example as I can, there was some recent back-and-forth with some project planning. One member of the client team chimed in on the later side and wrote something that indicated that he hadn’t read the rest of the thread. If *I* had received that email, I would have said something along the lines of, “Oh, yes, we already worked that out! See Simon’s response below,” or similar. My boss responded with something that was essentially, “How is that different from what I just said?” (It was actually, in my eyes, a little worse than that.) It’s hard to describe, but it’s basically a refusal to give someone the benefit of the doubt. There was another communication recently where a client didn’t have complete information and assumed something, and my boss’s response was almost chiding the client for not knowing the correct info. I would never talk to anyone that way, much less a business associate– I’ve even managed to tell someone to expand their Excel window to find what they’re looking for without making them feel stupid. One of the things I value most at this point in my life, both in personal affairs and business, is that we should try very hard not to make people feel stupid.

    Is there anything I can or should say? I don’t think he would take it very well, but I almost broke this week when he spoke to me like that. I usually respond by clarifying my thinking, but really what I want to say is, “Geez, it was a question, you don’t have to make me feel like an idiot about it.” That would not go over well.

    I think I’m extra sensitive to this lately because I’ve started a job search and it’s not looking great. The positions for which I’m qualified are those I don’t want, and the ones I do want are not available. And I don’t hate my job. So I kind of need strategies to make my future time here more bearable.

    1. Alianora*

      That sounds super unpleasant.

      With one boss I had a good rapport with, the topic of email tone came up, she said, “Some people are pretty sensitive! One guy was really upset about an email I sent him,” and I was able to say, “Well, I have noticed your tone is pretty different in emails than it is in person.” But that’s about the most I was willing to say. And she wasn’t rude or scolding, just very blunt.

      In your situation, where your boss wouldn’t take criticism well AND he’s already being a jerk to clients, I don’t think there’s much you can say that would have an effect. All you can do is continue to be polite to clients yourself.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      No quick answers I am afraid.

      I think that the best thing you can do is role model a more conversational, approachable tone. It takes time for people to notice this. It takes even longer for them to finally comment that they noticed. Aw heck, this process takes forever with some people.

      For your own peace of mind, decide to ignore 50% of the times he does this. Some people may be used to it. Some people may have different expectations when they talk with him. If it is really bad, they can tell him that he was upsetting to them. You don’t have to cover the mistakes HE makes. Letting him wallow in his own discomfort might teach him more than you ever could, we have no way of knowing. Decide not to wear his discomfort for him.

      If you face a time where he says. “So-and-so is mad at me for something I said”, you can react flatly. I have a saying you can borrow. My late husband used to say, “When you yank a chain on a toilet, you cannot blame the toilet for flushing.” This is about basic cause and effect relationships. Think about the silliness of being mad at a toilet for flushing and react flatly, “Oh that is too bad” or “I am sorry to hear that”. He did something to upset this person so now it is his to clean up. You are not surprised here. He is the only one who is surprised.

  46. A Simple Narwhal*

    How long of a notice period do retiring people tend to give? My manager told me recently that she plans to retire by the end of October, but with no further information because it isn’t public yet (she only told me because she told her boss this in confidence and grandboss blabbed it to someone else who told someone else, etc and she said she didn’t want me to hear the news from someone else).

    I’ve never worked with someone who’s retired before, but I was under the impression that it’s typically a pretty long transitional period.

    Honestly, most of my stress probably comes from the fact that my boss has been unsuccessfully trying to fill a much needed open spot on our team for six months, so I’m fairly concerned that she’ll retire with no replacement and then it will be just me and my other coworker holding down the fort. (For context we used to be a six person team, the workload has not decreased.)

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Amending this to add that I know no one is owed a long notice period, she could quit tomorrow and we’d have to make do, I’m just curious how others have experienced this.

    2. Turtlewings*

      In my experience that is an unusually short notice for retirement–most people I’ve know who retired gave notice of six months to a year. But I’ve mostly worked in academic settings, where everything is organized by year or semester, so that might be a factor. As you say, she doesn’t “owe” a longer notice, but I can see why you’re surprised and a little panicked!

    4. Morning reader*

      My first time, I gave a heads up to a couple of key reports that I was leaning toward retirement sometime in the new year… maybe six months before I left… as I recall I thought it might affect their projects or plans. I gave three months notice to my boss but first brought it up in a one-on-one to work out what might be mutually the best date.

      Second time, in a part-time position, I did it similarly but with shorter timelines. About 4 months prior told the person I shared a desk with (in case she might want to position herself to take my hours and go full time.) Discussed with boss at about 2-3 months, worked out a date, submitted the official resignation at 4 weeks, as the staff manual required.

      I don’t know what’s normal but if you have a good relationship with your employer and don’t fear repercussions or being forced out early, a few months is nice.

      (Re advanced notice to employees or coworkers, I asked them to keep it confidential and they all did. I’ve worked with good people!)

    5. Goldfinch*

      It really depends on the job. On the extreme end: when I’ve worked with SMEs in technical positions involving company IP (so, patent holders), they have hired new people to be mentored/coached by the retiree for anywhere from two to five years of overlap.

    6. Polaris*

      My mother gave three years, actually. But then, she’s been the head admin for her company for over 25 years, and she’s involved in the hiring and training of her replacement(s). I think it depends on the role and how the transition is going to be handled – and I think it’s not good that there doesn’t appear to be any planning for a replacement.

    7. A Simple Narwhal*

      Thanks for your input everyone! It sounds like this is a pretty short notice period for retirement. It doesn’t really change my situation at all, but I’m glad that my feeling a little weird about it isn’t entirely misplaced.

    8. PollyQ*

      I once worked with someone who gave zero notice — just didn’t come back from Christmas vacation. Consensus was that it wasn’t a snap decision, she just didn’t want any fuss made over her. But the way her department worked, she wasn’t taking any institutional knowledge with her, so it wasn’t particularly disruptive.

    9. Nope, not today....*

      My husband is retiring in Jan 2020, and he’s been loudly and happily announcing the days left for more than 2 1/2 years! His boss kept telling him he’d never really do it and said he wasn’t going to provide a 1/2 year contract to him only a full year contact, but 1/2 year contract was signed July 31st. He’s the lead for his company and they have no one ready to step in, but that’s the owners problem, not husbands! He does feel bad for the teams he supports though, as there is a steep, steep learning curve to his position.

    10. Clisby*

      I think when I retired (almost 4 years ago) the company asked for 3 months’ notice, mainly to work out the various pension/401K/etc. benefits. They couldn’t have enforced it, but I didn’t have any reason to keep it a secret.

  47. many bells down*

    So, last month I mentioned that I’d been summarily rejected from a job I really wanted with the organization I volunteer for. I took a couple weeks off from both volunteering and the job hunt, and last week I was ready to jump back into my job search.

    And I immediately got two interviews! Or… so I thought.

    The first company asked if I was free Tuesday. I said yes, what time? And then I never heard from them again.

    The second one sent me a link to schedule a phone interview, which I did. Half an hour after the scheduled time, with no call, I looked at the email for the calendar invite and saw that it had been canceled. There was no other notice.

    I’m trying not to take this all personally, but it’s really hard.

      1. many bells down*

        I’m considering checking in with the first company again just to see if they actually got the email. But I feel like canceling the interview without even a “sorry something’s come up” or a “can we reschedule” has put me off #2.

        I don’t want to go full gumption though so I was waiting until the end of the week to contact #1 again.

  48. Pink Glitter*

    My mom and I work for the same company in different departments. She’s been frustrated by an increased volume of one of her duties and has been having a hard time keeping up with her workload. This particular duty involves mailing things and the other day, when she mentioned having to write out envelopes, I had a sudden thought and said “Can’t they change the format of those documents so you can use window envelopes to mail them? That would save you a lot of time.”

    She had a team meeting today and brought it up and they are going to make the change! Not only will this reduce her stress levels, but she said it made her look smart so I’m thrilled.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Good for you both! You for suggesting a solution, and her for bringing up something new in a team meeting.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      That is so cool. My boss did the same thing when she took over her job. She changed everything over so it would work with windowed envelopes. This has saved so many hours of work.

  49. MOAS*

    Thanks everyone who commented on my post last week about engaging my remote work team!

    So far, things are going well *knock on wood*

    I know some said that we were having too much contact, but this is something that my company has mandated, so I can’t stray from it. I do make it a point to ask them how things are going and they usually say fine or ask about certain processes/clients etc. My colleague holds meetings iwth her team that are an hour long, while my team meetings are like 15-20 minutes sO I was worried about that. I asked her what she talks about with them and she told me, so I have a few ideas from there.

    My boss did guide us in the sense that, even if it’s a short conversation, it’s better than not having one, small/friendly talk is OK etc. (which I struggle with but that’s my thing which I can work on).

    For hte most part, I think they are all a good fit that if they were in the office physically, they’d most likely fit in well.

    Some of you who responded had a few specific questions and pointers, so I really appreciate those!

  50. Manders*

    This is kind of a long shot, but does anyone know of good resources for someone who’s considering becoming an equity investor in a small business? Someone I know is starting a business I’m enthusiastic about, and the amount of money she needs to get up and running is an amount I can afford to lose. I do know that things can get very, very bad for small businesses if they’re structured wrong so you’re not legally protected (creditors going after your personal assets, etc) so I want to understand what I need to do to protect myself before I sign any paperwork.

    And of course, I’d love to hear some stories from people who’ve done something similar, whether it went well or poorly. I don’t think the business is going to become a giant wildly profitable company, but I’d be happy with it if it’s stable and I make back what I put into it.

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      Does your city have a local startup collective? If so, that may be a good place to start as you’d be able to talk with folks who have probably dealt with getting funded. You could also try your city’s Small Business Association or Chamber of Commerce as they may be able to point you in the right direction.

      1. Manders*

        Thanks, I didn’t even think of that but there are tons of startup collectives in my city! I actually work for a startup myself, and my boss knows a lot about working with investors–maybe he can point me in the right direction.

    2. Margaret*

      Be sure you understand the income tax implications, which vary based on entity type (and an LLC has some options for how it’s treated for tax purposes, so be sure you understand what elections it’s going to make in that case). Will it be a C corp? (no different, really, than owning shares of Google – you might get dividends, if you sell you have your original cost basis to offset gain) Will it be a passthrough that gives you a K-1? (basically any other entity structure) A K-1 both means you may have to pay tax on income when you haven’t gotten cash out of the business yet (is there an agreement to at least distribute cash to cover taxes on the business income?), and you may have to extend your personal tax return while you’re waiting for the business tax return to get filed and get your K-1.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You are bankrolling the whole thing?
      I am hoping this is a smaller amount such as 1 or 2 thousand dollars.
      If it is much larger than that, please involve attorneys.

      If you are going to do this on your own the two of you should sit down and go over expectations. Make sure she does not expect you to come help her if you are not offering that type of assistance. If her business fails who pays any outstanding debt? Can she buy you out once she is able to buy you out? What does that buy out look like?
      Put it all in writing.

      What happens to the debt if one of you passes away? I have a friend who has stored a good amount of tools in my house. I said, “Rough question but I have to know. What do you expect me to do with this stuff if something happens to you?” He said keep them. Likewise I could see myself loaning someone $1000 and telling them if something happens to me, just keep the money or make a donation to charity if it helps you feel better.

      These are tough conversations but once talked out it puts the whole transaction on solid ground. Very well worth it.

  51. AndersonDarling*

    Since the question earlier in the week with the Archer references, I’ve been wondering if anyone has any stories about having a “Pam” in HR. Cases where HR went past incompetence and went straight to loony-toon crazy.

    1. Manders*

      At my first job, I was required to get a TB test and a blood test for chicken pox immunity before starting. We also had to attend a mandatory training to learn the secret codes if a baby was stolen from the maternity wing or a senior wandered off and needed to be found.

      This would have made sense if I was working in a hospital… but I was actually an admin for an Art History department. The university had a couple of big hospitals in its system, and HR had made the same requirements mandatory for all staff. Going to spend the summer filing slides? Gotta get a blood test first!

      2. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

        Well the good news is, if a baby is ever stolen from your archives you know EXACTLY what to do.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      My favorite AAM letter is the one about the spicy food which had a bizarre HR twist. I’ll reply with a link.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I was working in a research lab that used a hospital facility, and required you to get a TB test and hospital training to be allowed in the facility. Which is fair!

      Except HR constantly lost people’s paperwork. They’d lose someone’s application and then send an angry email, “Why is Unauthorized Person in our facility?” or “Who are you why are you emailing me?” They’d lose someone’s TB test and make them go get another TB test. It was bad enough that one of my coworkers started asking their personal doctor if there was any risk of harm, since he’d had several in a year.

      I never did get access to the facility, and eventually left that job. On my last week, my boss got an email from HR asking where my TB test and training information was because she’d just found my application and was going to process it. I worked there for two years.

    4. I can’t use my real name for this*

      My HR lady looked up my horoscope, asked me to pull a goddess card, told me about a confidential conversation she had had with a work friend of mine, and shared some dating app stories. All this in the same 1-hour meeting.

  52. Ames*

    I need recommendations for a good, comprehensive guide to finding a job in a different market. My local area doesn’t have a great inventory of jobs at the next career rung. I need a strategy to identify potential markets, locating recruiters, comparing cost of living, schools etc. I am hoping to find something that helps break that down into smaller steps

  53. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    Ohmygod.

    I am so glad it’s a long weekend.

    I am exhausted. I recently went back and looked and since January, I’ve been covering for a coworker 20% of the time. For the most part, she can’t help it. It’s been due to an ongoing medical issue. Part of the 20% is because she’s been out since the beginning of August due to an emergency procedure to fix said medical issue. She comes back Tuesday.

    COME ON 5:00!

  54. Tallulah in the Sky*

    I’d like some advise on how to handle a meeting with my boss where my performance and mental health will be the main topic. Sorry for the long post !

    TL;DR : a bout of depression has affected my productivity at work, my boss noticed three months ago. Since then I’ve been seeking professional help and got better. I have another meeting coming up with my boss about this, and I’d like some advice on how much to tell my boss to best communicate “I’ve taken this issue seriously and have put some stuff in place, I’m not yet at a 100% but getting there, thank you so much for your patience and understanding, is there something in particular you want me to focus for improvement ?”.

    The last two years have been quite hard for me, several thing happened in my personal life. The latest blow has been my father’s death in last December. Around that time, work started to slow down. I started to do less and less. At first, I just thought there’s not much to do and I could use the break. But after a while, I realised I couldn’t focus on my work even if I wanted to. When I got stuck on something, I had trouble asking for help and just stayed stuck, sometimes for days. I also bit by bit lost motivation, focus, and just the will to do anything, in my personal and professional life.

    Noticing this took a while. Finding a psychologist took some time too. I started seeing a professional at the end of May. She helped me realise I was a very anxious person, and a perfectionist. This coupled with the last couple of years have resulted in a bout of depression. Mix this with a bit of imposter syndrome, and I’m so scared of people finding out I’m a fraud, I don’t ask for help, I let my colleagues pick the hardest (and more interesting and fulfilling) tasks, just opening up my coding tools filled me with dread,… I also realised my productivity had already been dropping before my father’s death, I was functioning with my head barely over the water for a while before this. At work, the fact that there’s not enough work for everybody is also an issue, I’m experiencing bore-out because of this. I think I’m useless, and I know that if I would leave tomorrow, it wouldn’t be an issue, my colleagues could handle all the work without me (this is not just in my head, work has been slow for quite a while now).

    There were layoffs in May, and my manager took a closer look at everyone’s productivity, including mine. The layoffs only included contractors, not internal employees; thankfully, I’m in the latter category and so kept my job. But I did have a meeting with my boss where this was discussed (more informative, he wanted to understand what was happening since I’ve been working here three years with no issues and asked if there’s something he or the company could do, said that firing me was not an option for now). This happened at the start of June. I was relieved to be able to tell him that I was aware of the issue and already taking steps to be better and go back to my old self.

    Progress has been slow the first couple of months, but since the start of August I’m feeling a real change. I’ve been putting some good habits in place to help with my mental health (journaling, meditation,…), which has resulted in being able to be focused and alert at work. I’ve also been talking more with my colleagues and ask for help in a timely manner. Another thing is I’ve taken a day off here and there to recharge and take care of my mental state (where before I would have gone to work, do nothing, hate myself, and do the same thing the next couple of days, instead of taking the time to get out of a funky episode).

    We didn’t talk much since that meeting in June (I’ve been on holiday for three weeks, him for a month). I have a meeting with him next Tuesday. I know I’ve been doing better, but I also know I’m still not where I should be. I have good days (where I’m focused and reactive and handling things left and right) and bad days (where not much gets done). I also know it took a while before I got somewhat productive again. I have no idea what has been noticed, or hasn’t been. I also know this is mainly my anxiety talking, my boss just probably wants an update. With the holidays (and the fact that work is still slow, so completing it doesn’t take much time), I don’t think he has a good view of how things are going and wants to check in.

    Where I’m struggling is : how much should I tell him ? I don’t mind him knowing what got me to that point and how I’m faring (he already knows part of it, from that first meeting), but I also don’t want to burden him with that or make it seem like I’m making excuses. But I also want to be clear that this was not a product of laziness and that I’m taking this seriously. I have been putting some stuff in place and am making progress (but acknowledging I’m not at a 100% yet). I’ve been trying to come up with a script, but I feel I either divulge too much (talking about anxiety and depression), or am too vague.

    I also want to touch on the bore-out issue. Work is still slow, I work with two other developers who could do the work without me without doing overtime. I don’t see that change for the next three to six months. I think the best for my mental health would be to work somewhere where I feel useful and needed. I could do that without leaving my workplace : it’s a big financial institution, and lateral moves are common. Ideally, I’d prefer to stay in my team (I love mobile development and since I’m doing better, have a renewed fire for it), but I think being busy and feeling valued and useful is more important right now for me. I’m having trouble coming up with a script to explain this without sounding like I’m making excuses. I’d also like to leave the door open to come back if there’s more work coming in.

    1. TechWorker*

      Obviously you know your work best, but I *really* wouldn’t assume that your productivity means the rest of the team could manage without you. Even if you’re doing stuff much slower than one of your colleagues would do it, you’re still *doing stuff* that would take them zero time and eat into the rest of their work. (Even if you were working at 50% that’s a whole half person – I manage a small but busy team and I’d be super grateful for another half person!) Your plans to explain to your manager that you’re working to fix your productivity and it’s still on the up sound very sensible. I hope the conversation goes well!

    2. NW Mossy*

      I think your best bet here is to be matter-of-fact. You know there’s a problem, you’re working on it, and you can tell that your efforts are starting to pay off more quickly now. Bridge this to a request for input on areas where he’d like you to focus, and you’ve pretty much covered all the territory you need to. If you feel like your boss has been particularly helpful in some way, an acknowledgement of your appreciation can go in too.

      But if he’s a reasonable guy, he’s probably pretty understanding. I assume he knows about your father’s passing and that grief can often do a number on people. I don’t know if you’ve shared any details about your depression with him, but even if you haven’t, many people are familiar with the signs and can recognize them in others. It’s entirely possible that he’s thinking “man, Tallulah’s had a really tough year personally and I just hope she’s doing better now.”

      Long story short, don’t beat yourself up for having an illness that got exacerbated by grief. That’s a normal human thing to have happen, and you’re responding appropriately to help steady yourself. Don’t assume that your boss thinks poorly of you because of it. And by all means, don’t assume that your team/company would be better off without you. That feels like it could be depression talking, so really gut-check that thought with others before taking any action on it.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Give him a very short version of this. “I sought professional help. I have things that I can do at home to help myself also. I feel myself getting back on track and I will continue to work at everything until I am back to my usual productivity.”
      Then ask him if he has an specific questions or concerns he would like the two of you to talk about. It sounds like he is a good boss? So his questions and concerns should be limited to your work.

      When my father died, I had many, many absences. I got written up for excessive absences. I looked and the paper said 15 absences. I knew it was way more that that. With that, I understood the bosses were trying to help me, but I was over the top. So I did a pure backpedal. “Yep. I realize this is a problem. And I have taken steps to help myself so I do not miss so much time.” I had started with counseling and with seeing a nutritionist. I did not even have to explain what I was doing. They simply wanted me to say that I understood the problem and I was taking steps. They wanted me to say that things will continue getting better. So that is the barebones outline I recommend.
      Think of it this way, you are providing words for them to tell their bosses, “I am keeping OP on, I will not be firing OP because they have taken steps and I see improvement. This is an employee with a good record and I think that the difficulties will be resolved.”

    4. LGC*

      …I think (I hope!) your boss is aware that you aren’t going to be instantly cured. So you can point to the progress you’ve made, acknowledge that you’re still working on improving, and that’s all you need to say. (He might not even be expecting you to be at 100% anyway.)

      What would be helpful is mentioning that you’ve had a bit of a struggle lately and that’s why your performance slipped. You don’t need to divulge, but generally speaking limited details can help provide context. (Granted, you also run the risk of being stigmatized for being sick or crazy, which is something I have to acknowledge. But it sounds like your boss is not a jerk.)

      I think I’m overly…practical, but if an employee is having a sustained period of being off, what I want to know is if they’re aware that I’ve noticed they’re off, that they actually are having problems, and if they’re taking steps to fix the problem. You’ve done all three – you know your depression is interfering with your work, you know your boss is aware of it, and you’re taking some steps to avoid being zoned out for days at your desk.

  55. Up Too Early*

    Gotta love when someone quits without notice. Makes for lots of sudden chaos, a mind that can’t be turned off at 3 am, and a splitting headache as a result. But, I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off of me.

    For a couple months I’ve thought this person was looking to leave (not a bad thing given some issues); however, I didn’t expect him to come in on Monday, pack up, turn his stuff in, and send an email resigning. Didn’t even notify me in person, and my office is only two doors away! Had I not stepped out to grab coffee and bumped into him with his boxes of stuff, I wouldn’t have even seen him leave (his desk isn’t visible from my office). Needless to say, this person thoroughly and completely burned their bridges here, and not just because they quit without notice. It’s been amazing over the past week how many people have come to me to express their relief that he’s gone.

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      This has happened to my husband recently – absolutely screwed over our weekend plans too since his plant runs 24/7. Guy walked off the job F-bombs and middle fingers flying. Hubs called a few hours later and the guy answered along the lines of “I knew you couldn’t handle things without me – I want a X raise and blah, blah, blah…” Hubs cut him off with “Actually we are all relieved you are gone but you left with company property and if it isn’t returned by Monday we will be calling the police and reporting the theft.”
      Guy was in shock – actually thought he was so valuable they would beg him to come back so quit without a job lined up. Its true, he knew a lot about the plant, but he was also unreliable and an asshole. Tried to file for unemployment but since the incident was on security tapes it was denied.

      Bet your guy thought he screwed you all but good and you are failing miserably without him.

      1. Up Too Early*

        Yes, I’m pretty sure he thought he was irreplaceable and had screwed us. But as we all know, we all can be replaced at any time, for any reason.

        My guy didn’t do what your husband’s guy did; he thought he was flying under the radar and would just slip out, unnoticed. Sneaky.

    3. JanetM*

      Many, many years ago, my Dad and his best friend worked for the same company. One day, a directive came down from HQ that personal items (other than work tools and reference materials) were no long allowed in cubes.

      Friend thought about that for a while, packed up all his personal items (including his reference books and tools), put them in his car, walked across the campus to HR, and retired, effective immediately.

    4. Bilateralrope*

      I’ve been called in to cover shifts for a security guard who sent one email giving his two weeks notice because he found a better job elsewhere, promising to work his remaining shifts. Next day, he sent another email pulling out of all shifts.

      Both emails feel like he copy pasted them from somewhere.

      1. Up Too Early*

        The one I got was clearly set for Delay Delivery in Outlook based on the timing and that fact that he never logged onto the computer that morning.

  56. Bluesboy*

    This happened a few years ago, but I’ve thought about it a lot since then and wondered what people here would think of it.

    I was called into the boss’ office for the annual review. He started out by telling me that I was getting a 40%(!) raise. He said-

    “I need to explain this. I think that most companies get salaries wrong. When you prove that you’re worth €30k a year, only then do they put you on €30k, and when you prove you’re worth €40k then, and only then, do they put you on €40k and so on. So effectively everyone pays you the amount of money you should have earned one year earlier. Your salary over your career is always a year behind your performance”.

    “This raise doesn’t represent your performance over the last year. This raise represents what I think your work will be worth over the NEXT year”.

    He then went on to explain his objectives and targets for me for the upcoming 12 months.

    For context in terms of result, my performance up to that point was solid, but not even close to deserving of such a large raise (no imposter syndrome there, I’m quite confident that is an accurate reflection of my performance). Over the next year I worked really hard, but more than anything else my work improved because the vote of trust made me feel more confident about using my initiative and taking my own decisions.

    So…genius? Insane? Genius in this case because he read me like a book but crazy as a general philosophy?

    Bear in mind that we have contracts here, so if I hadn’t performed he couldn’t have just dropped my salary back down again.

    For myself, while hugely appreciated, I still can’t work out what I think of it from a managerial perspective even years later!

    1. Alianora*

      Wow! I think most people would love having a manager like that.

      I have no management experience, but I do think I’ve done better work when managers have shown me that they trust and value me. A huge raise like that strikes me as pretty risky, but if he was really confident in how his employee would react, I understand his reasoning.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I have no management experience, but I do think I’ve done better work when managers have shown me that they trust and value me.

        Same. I got a nearly 27% salary increase when I accepted my current position, and I know I work much harder now than I did at my last job because current grandboss came way up from his original offer (which would have been about a 5-6% raise) to get me in the door and I want to prove I’m worth every penny.

    2. The Other Dawn*

      This happened to me years ago and it gave me the extra motivation I needed at that time. Not only to continue doing my job, but to go above and beyond, and also take on all the extra responsibility (it was also a step up–salary came first, title came later). My boss told me, “What do you think you should get this year for your raise?” I have him what I felt was reasonable, maybe 3k. He came back and said, “No, I’m giving you an extra 15k, but you’re going to be working your ass off doing X, Y, and Z next year.”

    3. Angwyshaunce*

      I think this is brilliant. Good employees work hard, but this kind of management inspires one to excel.

    5. T. Boone Pickens*

      You’re getting paid kinda like a professional athlete on a year to year contract. Your boss is betting on your potential and that you will rise to the occasion. If you don’t rise to the occasion your boss will adjust.

  57. Oh No She Di'int*

    I have a tricky political situation that I am hoping to get insight on.

    Sally is a front-line llama groomer for the small llama grooming division of my business. Sally reports directly to me. Jane has also been my direct report for about the same amount of time. Up to now Jane has been managing the entire dog, cat, and hamster grooming division, which is huge needless to say.

    Recently, we’ve secured a large contract with all the zoos in our region, meaning that the llama grooming division is about to explode. I’ll no longer be able to handle it with Sally alone. I plan to put Jane in charge of this enlarged division. Jane has the skills and experience to run a large grooming operation. True, she knows very little about llamas specifically, but she knows about scheduling, logistics, customer service, health codes, first-aid, etc. Sally does not have those skills. Sally is smart, but she is very young (this is her first “real” job) and does not yet have the maturity to make confident business decisions. She knows how to groom llamas.

    My fear is that once I put Jane in this managerial position, Sally will experience the shift as a demotion. Sally has been reporting directly to me for most of her employment, which in theory has meant that she is “equal” to Jane. I personally don’t think this is a demotion, even though it means she will now become my grandemployee rather than my employee. I think of it as I’ve been *acting* head of the llama-grooming division, and now I need to get a permanent person in that position who has more time than I do. Any tips on how this should be broached with Sally? And for bonus points any advice on how to deal with the inevitable friction that will arise when Sally knows 10 times more about llamas on day one than Jane will.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Tell Sally that, because she’s such a valued and respected llama expert, it’s important that she be able to concentrate on llamas. And that because Jane is very good at certain management tasks, she needs to be in the management role. And maybe that you hope Sally will end up learning some management skills from Jane, and Jane will benefit from Sally’s llama expertise, if that’s how you think things need to go.

      1. valentine*

        I’ve been *acting* head of the llama-grooming division, and now I need to get a permanent person in that position who has more time than I do.
        Tell Sally this. It says it was always in the works and not a reaction to her work.

      2. Oh No She Di'int*

        Thanks to everyone in this thread! All of this is tremendously helpful information.

    2. CAA*

      Be honest and transparent with both of them. There is nothing wrong with telling Sally that you are making these structural changes because of growth (which is a good thing) but she doesn’t yet have the experience to head up a new division, while Jane has the needed expertise in scheduling, logistics, customer service, health codes, first-aid, etc. If you see that Sally could grow into this role in 2 yrs or 5 yrs or whatever, tell her that and urge her to take this opportunity of working with Jane to start picking up some of the skills she needs to work towards that goal. Also tell Jane that she should be a mentor to Sally and help her start learning these skills.

      I think you should also keep meeting with Sally one-on-one occasionally as you all work through the transition. If you currently have weekly meetings with her, you could go to bi-weekly and then monthly.

    3. Lurker*

      It seems to me that you are basically promoting Jane. I think it might go over better, if you actually treated it as a promotion and created a job description that outlined all of the skills and allow both to interview. If you have a concrete list of the skills and experience required, it’s a lot easier to explain to Sally where she needs to grow in order to be considered for that kind of position in the future. If you don’t create some sort of objective process, there is no way for it to feel fair for Sally… or for you to have a positive discussion about the skills Jane is bringing to the table and why you are making the decision that you need to make?

    4. Anono-me*

      Can you promote them both?
      Jane to Llama Grooming Department Manager and Sally to Lead Llama Groomer and Trainer.

      I’m not just suggesting this as a sop to Sally since she’s not getting promoted to manager. With your company expanding that department hugely, one of the things you’re going to have to work hard at is making sure everybody has the skillset and follows the same best practices. It sound like Sally is really good at what she does and does it the way your company wants it done. So she would be a natural to be the leader in making sure the rest of the team it’s on the same page.

  58. gbca*

    Question for women – how often do you repeat work outfits? And do you have any kind of work “uniform”? Ever since returning from my second maternity leave, my wardrobe has been somewhat limited (not much fits and I’m reluctant to buy a lot of clothes in my current size). But I can get through maybe 1.5-2 weeks without a repeat – is that so bad? I’ve also kind of developed kind of a uniform – I wear a cardigan over a sleeveless blouse almost every day. I have cardigans in nearly every color of the rainbow! I also feel slightly self-conscious about this, but most men wear practically the same type of clothes everyday (e.g. polos or button-downs) and that’s totally acceptable. Would love to get others’ thoughts on this.

    1. Purt's Peas*

      It’s totally acceptable. I have about 7 dresses I wear to work, same shoes & tights, usually the same jewelry, and the dresses are a similar enough aesthetic that they’re basically a uniform. I just make sure not to repeat the same dress within a work week.

    2. londonedit*

      I’ve worn the same plain black t-shirt twice this week, and it’s only been a four-day week here. I’m lucky in that I can wear the same sorts of clothes to work as I do at weekends, so I don’t have a specific work wardrobe, but I do find that I wear the same few outfits, or similar combinations of things, on rotation. For me it’s either tapered trousers/jeans with a plain t-shirt or sleeveless top, or some sort of midi shirt dress.

    3. ThatGirl*

      I rotate through roughly the same outfits every week or two. In winter my uniform is basically dark jeans (1 of 2 pairs), a solid-colored tee (I have about 10 of them) and whatever cardigan I feel like that day. Plus I have some favorite combos so I tend to wear the same outfits every week or two. If anyone notices, well, like you said – men wear basically the same thing every day.

    4. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      In the summer? I rotate through the same outfit once a week.

      Fall/winter? MONTHS. I’m kidding. Mostly. I have an obscene amount of sweaters and long-sleeved shirts. Also a not insignificant boot collection.

    5. Third or Nothing!*

      I’ve had a hard time finding work appropriate skirts that I like and that look good on me, so my wardrobe is also limited. I have about 10 skirts that I cycle through and mix up the paired blouses as best I can. I don’t repeat an outfit over the course of a week but it’s pretty usual to see me wear the same black skirt I wore last week but with a different shirt this time. Ah, the joys of being plus sized and having a very specific aesthetic that hasn’t been in style in years.

    6. LQ*

      Yes to uniform. I have 10 dresses, they rotate, that’s it. I found out recently that someone near me has a 1 week wardrobe. She wears the exact same thing every Monday, every Tuesday. It’s awesome. No one knows unless she tells them. I have a few coworkers who have like 7 or 8 M-Th outfits and then just sort of random it on Fridays but are pretty much the same the rest of the days. Someone has to write down her outfits so she doesn’t rewear them the same week and misses her military uniform. (We’ve been talking a lot about clothes because they just relaxed the dress code.)

      I think you’re totally fine to have 1.5-2 weeks without a repeat. I think you’d be fine with 1 week. You definitely don’t need to feel self-conscious about it.

      1. Wild Blue Yonder*

        I absolutely miss my uniform, too. It takes thinking and worries about repeat outfits. But people don’t realize that we have several uniforms and we have to know which one to wear on any given day (Uniform of the Day – UOD) – that’s it about stress (it used to be polished boots and perfectly startched uni’s which are a thing of that past).

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      I try to go 2 weeks without a repeat, but I have to admit I don’t notice how often my coworkers rewear anything, so this is probably completely unnecessary. I also pay attention to what I wear with people I see infrequently – if I meet with a certain group once a month, I don’t want to wear the same thing every time I see them. Your uniform sounds perfectly appropriate.

    8. A Simple Narwhal*

      Oh you’re totally fine repeating once every 1.5-2 weeks. I’ve probably repeated outfits in less time if I like it enough. And to be honest, there’s a really good chance no one is noticing your outfits that much. I might recognize a specific piece of clothing on a coworker, but I couldn’t for the life me tell you if they wore it last week or six months ago, if it was the exact same outfit or if it was just one piece of it.

      Congrats on your new baby!

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Exactly – I definitely don’t notice what other people are wearing unless something catches my eye that I like. Otherwise, nope – they could be in clown shoes and I wouldn’t notice.

    9. Murphy*

      I wear a cardigan over a blouse and pants 95% of the time. It’s never been remarked upon! (My preference for the color green has been, but I don’t get the impression that it’s viewed negatively.)

    10. Ann Perkins*

      Oh goodness, I could have written this. I’ve had such a hard time with clothes after returning from my second maternity leave too. My “uniform” used to be a fitted dress + blazer but it’s not practical for pumping. I’ve been doing ankle pants + nice top nearly every day since I returned. I really should wear a blazer in my office but then I would need to tuck in my shirt, and my postpartum pooch makes me self-conscious.

      To actually answer your question – I end up repeating about every 7-10 days also.

    11. OtterB*

      I think it’s fine. The only thing I’d worry about repeating too often is some kind of stand-out color or pattern. Nobody’s going to remember when you last wore your blue/green/pink cardigan. If you wore one that was electric blue with bright yellow fish on it, that will be more memorable. (Though, to be honest, now I want one.)

    12. Goldfinch*

      I am not allowed to wear dresses or skirts, so my options are limited anyway. A uniform makes it easier.

      I own five pairs of the same pants: three black, one navy, and one gray. I switch color every day, so it’s obvious that I haven’t worn the same pair two days in a row. Shoes are always black, flats in summer and boots in winter. I have about 8 button-downs I rotate in summer, and about 8 sweaters I rotate in winter.

      Despite all that, I have one “work cardigan” that stays in my subarctic office, so 99% of the time I look like I never change clothes.

    13. Cruciatus*

      I have a “uniform”…just some work pants and usually a button down shirt. I repeat outfits week after week! Maybe sometimes it was gray pants with the purple top, maybe the black pants. When it gets cooler I have a few more options, but honestly, I don’t think anyone cares or notices much, unless the outfit really sticks out in some way.

      Actually, I do remember buying a new shirt last year and one coworker noticed! But I don’t think it’s because they pay attention to the frequency of me repeating an outfit, but they just recognized it wasn’t something I normally wear (because it was brighter than the usual stuff). But my “uniform” works for me, even if it isn’t super exciting. I just don’t want to think about it that much in the morning and just want to be dressed in a socially acceptable way for work that is still comfortable to me. And if someone is paying attention to how often I wear that purple top, well, that’s their problem!

    14. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I work primarily remotely, but every time I’ve been onsite in the last four years, I’ve been wearing a solid-colored sleeveless blouse and cardigan with either a long skirt (in summer) or dark-wash jeans (in winter). And probably 80% of the time, the blouse is red and the cardigan is black. (The other 20%, the blouse is black and the cardigan is wild and crazy patterns.)

    15. Hmm*

      I can wear the same jeans and hoodie up to 3 days in a row (I wear a fresh T-shirt every day though).
      If men on my team can do it, so can I.

    16. JanetM*

      My “uniform” is long skirts in various dark patterns, black blouses (or sweaters in the winter), knee-high stockings (nylons in summer, knee socks in winter), and one of two pairs of shoes. I mix and match skirts with blouses pretty randomly (except the solid black skirt always gets one of the two patterned blouses). I have probably a 8- to 10-day rotation.

    17. Karo*

      I have 3 pairs of pants, 8 shirts and 3 cardigans that I wear to work. Each of these are the same brand/style of article of clothing, just in different colors (e.g. my pants are all denim pixie chinos from Old Navy in various blues). I tend to mix and match these items, but it’s always the same sillouhette. Sometimes I feel a little weird – like if I’ve worn the same thing 3 Mondays in a row – but I don’t think anyone has really noticed, and if they did they certainly didn’t comment.

    18. Ranon*

      My rotation is probably 1.5 weeks in a given season? Enough to do laundry weekly and not have to do extra if I spill. Plus I have favorites that I wear pretty much every week so it’s more like 3-4 outfits get worn every single week plus one wildcard outfit.

    19. K*

      This has also been a worrying topic for me lately, as I totally have a uniform. I own several variations of the same cardigan (multiple colors, full and 3/4 length sleeves, and wool and cotton versions), and then one type of dress pant in multiple colors, and just mix and match with a few different sleeveless blouses or occasionally a high quality plain T-shirt. For my shoes I rotate between a pair of loafers and a few different pairs ballet flats. The ballet flats are all the same shoe, just in different colors, so I am basically wearing the same outfit everyday (with the exception of my blouse that no one sees) just in different colors. But honestly all the guys I work with seem to have a work uniform, and they don’t even mix up the colors. I doubt anyone thinks twice about my male coworker wearing khaki pants and white button down every day.

    20. OyHiOh*

      I have two sheath dresses, two pair of work pants, 3 work blouses, and 2 blazers, all in a fairly narrow range of colors so that everything is interchangeable (wear blazer with dress one day, wear same blazer with blouse/trousers the next, etc). I have a shopping rule that if I buy something new, something already in my closet has to be donated and also, anything new has to coordinate with at least 2 existing pieces in my closet. It’s slightly more varied than a strict uniform but predictable enough I don’t spend a lot of energy on clothing choices.

    21. Hazy days*

      I’m really surprised by this! I’d wear the same outfit twice running on successive days (possibly vary the jewellery), then I’d do a weekly wash. So I’d be aiming to wear 5 outfits over two weeks maximum, but in practice repeating seasonal clothes at least once, so more like 3 or 4 items per week.
      I see that as very common. This week it’s been:
      Navy print cotton dress x 2
      Black trousers and navy sleeveless top x 2
      Jeans and patterned sleeveless top x 1 (Friday)

    22. TechWorker*

      I have male friends who own the same pair of trousers 3 times and wear nothing else to work. 1.5-2 weeks? Don’t give it a second thought :D

    23. Buffy*

      I work at a company that is casual all the time especially in my department. I have a bit of a ‘uniform’ going on in that it’s jeans, runners (for summer) or hiking boots (for winter), short sleeve plain V-neck t-shirt in summer (mostly in varying shades of grey) and long sleeved ones in the winter. Because it’s cold in my office year around, I have a number of zip up hoodies from my alma mater that I wear. The truth is that very few people really keep track of what you wear on a daily basis unless you have something that’s very bright/unusual that stands out. Don’t be afraid to be like guys and simply wear what you want when you want as often as you want so long as you are meeting company wardrobe standards. This is something that women need to start embracing because it definitely makes things far easier. All that time you spend worrying about what some unknown person might think about what you are wearing can be used for other more fun things.

    24. Green great dragon*

      I only go to the office twice a week and I have two favourite summer tops and two pairs of black trousers and I probably wear one of those tops about 75% of the time? I try to mix it up a bit but most of my other outfits require more effort to wash/iron/dry clean.

    25. Clisby*

      The last time I actually worked in an office, I guess my uniform was jeans and a T-shirt (in warmer weather) or jeans and a sweatshirt/sweater (in cooler weather).

      I doubt anybody paid much attention to what I wore, since this was well within the dress code guidelines.

    26. Windchime*

      I have a few pairs of black capri pants and 6 or 7 tops, plus some coordinating lightweight sweaters and I have been rotating through those all summer. I usually wear the same pants two days in a row since they are all black and nobody can tell them apart anyway. Nobody seems to notice or care that I don’t have a ton of clothes, and I don’t notice what other people wear except when it’s something exceptionally cute or strange (which really doesn’t happen often). I think your wardrobe sounds perfectly fine.

    27. Baru Cormorant*

      At one job, a very pregnant woman wore basically 2 dresses with leggings for the entire last month while she was at work. I noticed but didn’t say anything because (not only is it none of my business) I figured she didn’t want to buy more clothes in the last month of her pregnancy, which makes very practical sense to me.

  59. HigherEd on Toast*

    This isn’t really asking for advice, just venting about a pushy colleague.

    I work as a professor at a community college with a lot of at-risk students (poverty and substance abuse issues mostly). I have one colleague, not senior to me since we started working at exactly the same time and are both tenure-track, who loves to position herself as a “savior” for students, and then scold the rest of us for not following her ideals. She’s told us that someone should volunteer to teach for free for a year and give their salary to homeless students- although not her, as she’s too busy supporting her pets. When most of the faculty and staff stopped using our office fridge because we had issues with people stealing food from it, this colleague said the thieves were probably students too “shy” to go to the college food scarcity services for help and we needed to stock the fridge with free, organic, vegetarian food so they could steal it in peace. It’s all kinds of weird stuff like that. There have been people who applauded her “compassion” but never followed her advice and people who kept silent in public and rolled their eyes to each other in private, like me.

    Her latest thing is that, because SHE lets students sleep on her couch and drives them to their medical or court appointments, all “real” professors who “really love” teaching should also volunteer to let students live with them and drive them around. It’s like, I can’t drive due to medical issues, so that’s out anyway, and I’m far from the only person who would not be comfortable letting a student into their homes. (Not to mention that I have seen situations like this in the past, although not with this particular colleague, blow up really frickin’ big-time in the professor’s face). I wish she would stop lecturing me about how, well, then, I should call taxis for students, and if I’m not comfortable letting them live with me, I should give up teaching and go into a different profession. No, YOU give up the lecturing and scolding, you idiot.

    1. DAMitsDevon*

      Okay, wow, she sounds like a nightmare, tbh. While, yes, compassion towards students who may be homeless is certainly good, her investment in it seems inappropriate. Also, if you were teaching K-12 students instead of adults, driving students home and letting them sleep at your house would probably be forbidden, or at the very least, a huge liability.

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        Yeah, I’ve never seen any indication that her teaching is suffering because of it, but I do wonder how she relates to students who don’t feel comfortable telling her about their troubles or their traumatic pasts the way some of them clearly do.

        And we have had a colleague here who got let go because of his inappropriate closeness to a student and one who was stalked by a student she tried to help, and I saw two at my last place who let students live with them and then the students started spreading all sorts of nasty rumors about them. I think there absolutely have to be boundaries in place.

      2. Snark*

        They’re not K-12 students, but in any case, as a former university instructor, I would want to avoid the appearance of potentially improper relationships – of whatever kind – and I would certainly never be alone with a student. My job is to evaluate their academic performance; developing a quasi-parental, overly involved relationship with them would at worst skew my judgement and at worst could result in a sexual harassment claim against me, so all the nah.

        1. HigherEd on Toast*

          Yeah, that’s where I’m at, and the sexual harassment claim did apparently happen- we didn’t really get the details- against someone who was always meeting alone with students and talking about giving them driving lessons and stuff like that. My job is to teach them and if necessary to work out things like alternate deadlines if they really can’t turn a paper in or have a health issue interfering with them coming to class or something like that. I’ve also given students who needed help information for counselors and so on. I am not a trained counselor. I could really screw up trying to deal with someone’s mental health issues.

          Compassion is great, but I see it as necessary to inform my role as a professor, not to make me become a substitute parent for them.

          1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

            “I’ve also given students who needed help information for counselors and so on”

            This is a hugely important point – per Title IX regulations, faculty members are REQUIRED to disclose anything students tell them about sexual harassment/discrimination/assault, whether the alleged crime occurred on campus or not. Students need to be aware that they cannot have a parental/pastoral relationship with faculty because they, by law, cannot keep certain things confidential.

            If your colleague *is* having these kind of conversations and not disclosing them, she could lose her job or worse.

            1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

              Meaning, you are acting appropriately by referring students to trained mental health professionals.

    2. Snark*

      “I’m afraid that won’t be possible.”

      “I can’t make that a priority, I’m afraid.”

      “Well, I understand how you feel, but like I said, I’m afraid that won’t be possible.”

      “I hear you, but I disagree.”

      “I understand, but I will not be joining you in that.”

      Choose from the above as necessary. Deliver in the blandest, least inflected tone possible. Repeat often. Switch to another topic immediately.

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        I tend to just go with “Mmm, mhm,” or say I’m busy and can’t talk now, which is the socially acceptable thing to say around here because we have heavy teaching loads and everyone is always busy. Trying to tell her I disagree or can’t make it a priority has had her dumping pamphlets on “trauma-informed teaching” on me, which to her seems to mean, “You must prioritize students’ trauma at the expense of everything else.”

        1. Snark*

          My feeling is she’s so socially maladroit that she interprets those refusals as “come back later.”

        2. Reba*

          “as you know, you and I have very different teaching philosophies, and I don’t

          I agree that “can’t talk now” is reading as “talk again later” …. Although honestly she would be like this no matter what you say.

          There is definitely a cool-parent/martyr thing that attracts some people in higher ed. Your colleague is bonkers.

          “I went into [Field] not social work”?

          1. Reba*

            Also, trauma informed teaching is a real thing and involves *maintaining professional boundaries* ! that’s part of the methodology!

            1. HigherEd on Toast*

              Oh, yeah, I know it’s real, and I was interested to look it up myself after she mentioned it. But it was very different on the websites and articles I found from the way she presented it; she presented it as “You can’t ever ask students who have been traumatized to do something for themselves, because their brains won’t allow it,” and “We should stop teaching [a couple of very basic skills] to students, because what if they were traumatized by teachers in their past who tried to teach them those things?” and “Trauma-informed teaching means that you ‘march’ [her word] the student over to the building on the other side of the city where they need to go.” None of those are things I’m comfortable with or want to do.

          2. Reba*

            Oh, that first comment was supposed to say something like “don’t want to discuss it any further” !

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      I would look into whether or not the school has a defined policy on allowing non-related students to live with the professors – there has to be something to protect all involved.
      The only thing I don’t think is completely out of line is having some extra food in the fridge (although organic, vegetarian is going too far – maybe just some extra Lean Cuisines and a bag of apples or whatever was on sale that week 10 for $10).

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        Our Faculty Handbook doesn’t seem to have a policy about that, mostly because it never seems to have occurred to the people who wrote it that anyone would actually do that. All the sections seems to be about Title IX, the process for a student filing a grade appeal, etc.

        The fridge is supposed to be for faculty and staff only, not for students, though. I am really not comfortable buying food and saying, “This is for students to steal.” I’d be more comfortable donating to the services the campus provides or pointing students in their direction if they inform me they’re suffering from food scarcity.

        1. PollyQ*

          BTW, I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that it’s students that are the food thieves anyway. How many stories has AAM seen about intra-office food theft? (The mean part of my brain instantly said, “I bet she’s the food thief!)

          1. Lisanthus*

            Good point, re her possibly being the food thief. I could see her taking the food for the students based on her described comments/attitude….

    4. Lisanthus*

      Holy lack of appropriate faculty/student boundaries, Batman! She is out of line, speaking as someone who was a front-line student services professional for years and switched higher ed fields due to burnout.

      Only *once* in my years doing student services did I ever offer a student my spare bedroom rather than trying to connect them to broader social services in Very Large City. And that was an extremely unusual/dire situation where I felt concerned enough to say “If you have not found somewhere safe to stay by 5 pm tonight, come back to the office and tell me and you can stay with me overnight; I have a spare room and you’ll be safe there.” I knew the student well enough that I felt safe in taking the risk; they wound up going to a shelter overnight because they didn’t want to trouble me. *sigh*

      Like you I have seen this type of behavior blow up. I also don’t think your college legal staff would be really happy to hear about what she’s doing in terms of risk management — both for the students and for her — given what you mention below.

      I suppose saying “Have you thought about switching from tenure-track faculty to a student affairs position, since you’re so hands-on regarding students’ lives outside the classroom?” would only start more arguing, alas.

      You have my sympathies FWIW. And as is said in many venues, you cannot set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm and that’s what she’s telling people to do.

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        Thank you. I know myself, and I know that if this really was an expected part of the job I would have been out of higher ed long ago because there’s no way I can handle that kind of thing. I also think that this creates, at the very least, the appearance of favoritism towards students who she’s “close” to (I know that she’s visited certain students’ houses for holidays with their families, such as Christmas or Easter, after only knowing them a few months), and that is a nightmare I would not want to deal with at all. Whether it actually has affected the way she grades or teaches, I don’t know. I can only hope it hasn’t.

        1. Lisanthus*

          She’s visited…students’ houses…for holidays with their families….

          *head in hands* Sweet Baby Cthulu, does she WANT to wind up in Inside Higher Ed and the Chronicle of Higher Education both? Because this is reading like the prequel to one of *those* stories. It totally creates an appearance of favoritism; I’m amazed she hasn’t had grade complaints already from students who feel she’s playing favorites.

          I don’t know what the expectations for your tenure portfolio are, but maybe it’s worth talking to a trusted tenured mentor about what specifically they constitute at your institution. Because you know Susy Overboundaries will be trying to tell you that “If you want tenure, you have to call students taxis and let them sleep on your couch because that’s the only way to do ‘teaching and service’ properly. And they’ll evaluate *you* by how wonderful and self-abnegating *I* am.” *sigh*

          I am so sorry. I’m aghast and I’m only reading this from a distance; it’s got to be very stressful to deal with it first-hand.

          1. HigherEd on Toast*

            I think maybe the other students don’t know about it? I don’t know how much she talks about it in class as opposed to bragging to us about how glorious and compassionate she is.

            I’m pretty sure that nothing like this is an expectation for tenure. I’m sure she will play up that angle on her own teaching statement and other documents, but I’ve talked to multiple people who have tenure and who reassured me that nothing like this is necessary. There are a lot of people who talk about how “compassionate” she is, though.

            And thanks.

            1. JaneB*

              But students talk to each other – in my experience in higher ed, students know all about this sort of thing and do get very stressed about possible unfairness.

    5. Goldfinch*

      This will not end well.

      I knew a prof who let a student live with her (her being a middle-aged woman, him being a 19-year-old gay man) and when things escalated to rumors about their relationship, she OUTED HIM to save her own skin. The reason he’d been homeless in the first place was coming out to his Catholic parents.

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        Ugh, that is so awful. My sympathies to that student.

        One of my former colleagues let a student whose parents were abusive live with her. The student ended up spreading rumors that the seizure my colleague had, which were caused by a medical condition, were due to alcoholism. I’m not sure my colleague’s reputation ever recovered from that.

    6. Lora*

      What the…?

      Um, I *was* a very impoverished student, and you know what was / would have been a help to me personally?

      -More student housing either subsidized or payable with financial aid (i.e. scholarships and work-study will cover it as opposed to student loans). Heck, more student housing in general, especially for married students who can’t bring their spouse/family into dorms. Even when I was in grad school, which was still a long time ago, housing shortages for students generally were a huge problem. Even students who had already paid for dorm rooms would show up on campus with no place to stay because the college had double-booked some rooms, assuming some students would choose another school or transfer, only to find their projections were wrong. On some campuses, the only student housing investments are in high-end single room dorms as opposed to lower cost multiple roommate dorms.

      -More subsidized cafeteria plans with lots of protein and vegetables. My personal favorite remains the student-run hippie co-op cafeteria in grad school that served, huge plate for $2.50/meal in 2004: steamed kale (always kale), salad, some sort of beans / tofu protein thing, and bread, noodles or rice, with sauce of your choice ($0.25 extra for the really good tahini dressing). It was healthy and cheap and filled you up.

      -A food pantry for students, especially one that has toiletries as well, and some sort of ombudsman type support for dealing with slumlords.

      -Textbooks in the library, even if you have to put them behind the reference desk to make sure nobody steals them. Don’t make people get new editions either, for crying out loud, that’s pure sadism. Or do without a textbook if you can: have students read original sources, create your own problem sets, have the librarians teach classes on how to look things up without a textbook.

      -Bus service that goes all over town. Ex’s college offered this, the campus buses that only needed a student ID to ride actually ran all over the town and ran late at night and they didn’t check the IDs that carefully – probably could have waved any card at the driver and they wouldn’t have cared.

      -24/7 access to the gym showers. When you are poor as a churchmouse, infinite hot water can be a delightful luxury.

      -Paid for healthcare and university provided health care: this was HUGE. When I went to grad school I had lived in states that didn’t have health care insurance of any kind I could afford (this was prior to ACA) and then I went to grad school at a big state U that provided their own on-campus health care to all students. You just made an appointment and showed up, you didn’t have to pay anything, and there was a big medical school associated with the university so they really provided a LOT. I got caught up on about 7 different vaccinations I had been missing, got a whole bunch of stuff taken care of, even got oncology follow-ups that I had had to miss living in No-Insurance State.

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        Some of those services are available on our campus, like the food pantry, textbooks in the library, and showers, some are not (for example, we have no campus housing available at all). I try to connect students to those when I can. The main problem I think my colleague has is that that’s not savior-like enough for her; she wants to be seen as the source of the student’s food and help and ability to get to places. Which I find creepy.

        1. Lora*

          It’s extremely creepy. That’s why I’m saying, it is MUCH better all around if these are services provided by the university to everyone as opposed to provided by like…one person.

          I mean, the only thing I could think of that would be more hands on but still not creepy as heck would be if she was the official adviser for a student group organizing such things? Like, we used to have a lot of student-run clubs and social organizations that would sometimes do clothing drives and co-op stores and whatnot, and they all had to have an official faculty adviser for signing paperwork. But that’s about as close as I can imagine being without things getting kinda weird.

      2. Out of Retail*

        This list is amazing- thanks for sharing. (I’m just going to print it out and start shoving it in people’s faces, really.) Systemic change is SO much better than some creepy person trying to “save” people (which is, I think, I 100% controlling thing.)

    7. Consuela Schlepkiss*

      Ugh. This gave me shudders because at some point, things are gonna go badly. You just don’t know when, why, in what way, with how many people involved.

      I do wonder if in fact she will get tenure. When do you both go up? When you have tenure, if you are both still there, you can feel free to really tell her how you feel, of course.

      (I just want to reinforce that she is completely wrong and you are under no obligation to make these efforts.)

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        We go up in a few years. I’m pretty sure she’ll get it because she’s very popular with the administration- has babysat the kids of our immediate supervisor and things like that- but I suppose the chances are much higher that she’ll get hit with some kind of complaint.

        And it’s nice to know that other people also think this is wrong!

    8. LibbyG*

      Oof! I’m a professor too, not at a community college but at an “access institution.” I see some of this performative martyrdom, but not quite to the degree you’re describing. I’ve had colleagues who try to frame themselves as the only one who’s really on the students’ side, in some weird way. On one memorable occasion I overheard a student enthuse about one of these instructors meeting them at 1 am to go over their paper draft. Oh, hell no!

      It’s hard to see economically marginalized students get derailed because of a blown head gasket or suddenly becoming the guardian of a family member’s kids. But my role is to offer as much flexibility as I can, along with relevant advice about college policies and resources and my sincere encouragement.

      There’s no arguing with your colleague. Even as she hectors you all to become crisis managers or whatever, she probably enjoys seeing herself as unique and special in her sacrifice to students.

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        Yeah, she’s gone on and on about how much she gets to help and how it’s all her doing…and then I hear her badmouthing some of those same people. Like, she’ll be on the phone with someone saying that they’ll get a housing situation sorted out and then be stomping around her office talking about “fucking morons and how they don’t know anything.”

        Among other things, I’m wary of listening to what she says just because she seems to be extremely two-faced about it.

        (I’m glad to know this is not a problem unique to my institution, though).

    9. dear liza dear liza*

      Just affirming that you’re right and she’s more than a few sandwiches short of a picnic. Total lack of boundaries, unprofessional, and annoying AF to those she lectures? I wonder how that will translate in her tenure approval…

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        Other people seem to think they need to compliment her on her compassion and that kind of thing even if they’re confirming to me that they’d never do it themselves. But there’s only one person I can think of who’s apparently completely bought into her version of things and goes around telling everyone that “Dr. So-and-so is the most wonderful teacher in the school.”

    10. Hope*

      “I’ve always found that students do better in post-college life if we treat them like adults instead of incapable children.” Lather, rinse, repeat.

      And it wouldn’t hurt to make risk management or your college’s legal team/department aware of what’s going on.

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        Yeah, I believe that, though she doesn’t seem to.

        Our department head knows what’s going on, but doesn’t care, because this colleague has babysat for his children and all he can talk about is her “love and compassion.”

    11. Aphrodite*

      When I first began working at the college’s housing office (as an hourly) one summer there was someone there, an admin, who did some of the same type of stuff. Students would come in for help in finding places to live in the community–this was pre-CraigsList–and this woman who was, I’m guessing, in her forties or possibly early fifties, married and with a teenage daughter would just burst out with offers of food and free places to stay in her home. The first time I heard it I was amazed and her supervisor (mine too) was genuinely angry. It happened again and again despite the supervisor every single time telling her it couldn’t happen again. The woman seemed unable to help herself and I found myself wondering how her husband put up with it and wondering why she wasn’t worried about putting her teenage daughter at risk since she invited students, both male and female, and whom she had only met a few minutes before to stay with her. I never said anything–it wasn’t my business–but it was bad for the college and bad for her as I think her supervisor pushed her out of the (unionized) job eventually.

    12. Wishing You Well*

      Talk to your boss about Colleague’s behavior. Tell boss this colleague lectures you and others to do as she does and ask what the boss wants you to do. If you have HR, they REALLY need to know about her over-involvement in students’ lives. She’s a lawsuit waiting to happen. She has no boundaries. Yow.

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        I have. It gets nowhere. They’re BFF and she babysits his kids and she’s “full of love for our students.”

    14. LilySparrow*

      I can’t help but think of the guy who was one of Jesus’ disciples, and was so very, very concerned for the poor that he lectured Jesus about not doing enough for them.

      According to the story, he was actually stealing the alms for himself. Name of Judas.

      I take the moral of the story to mean that terrible boundaries and conspicuous self-righteousness never really come from good motivations. This is going to end badly for her, and unfortunately for one or more of the students she’s being inappropriate with.

      Her lack of boundaries may not be directly predatory, but it is for sure not appropriate. She’s the one who’s supposed to know better.

    15. Dr. Anonymous*

      I think it’s just another exhibition of privilege to treat students as helpless charity cases unable to navigate the world unless we swoop in and personally save them to make ourselves feel good. Sure, we need an adequate social safety net and some empathy. And helping them learn to advocate for themselves is worthy and helpful, although not something everyone should do all the time. But it’s the worst sort of arrogance to pretend the students will starve unless we leave out food for them to steal. It would be so tempting to ask her from time to time if she’s being a mentor, or a mom.

  60. Ali G*

    We are hiring a low (2 years experience/undergrad degree) level project manager on my team. I’ve hired before, but have always had someone else that sifts through the applications and sends me the ones that look the best.
    Well, our HR coordinator is out so I am doing it on my own to keep things moving, and OMG people! What are some people thinking when they apply to jobs? Do they even read the job description?
    We have 50 applications and I would say less than 10 relevant to the position. The others? Hm, let me see:
    Sends a 6 (!!!) page resume and has never had a full time office job (retail, summer lab tech, etc. – not that these aren’t real jobs, they just don’t support the notion they are qualified for this position). And wants to make $15k more than the top end of the posted salary range (yes we post it).
    Has zero relevant experience or education, but a PMP (we are not requiring this) and a ton on unrelated experience and wants to make twice the posted salary range.
    Has zero related experience and opening line of cover letter says “I am highly qualified for Position X and it fits into my career goals of improving my skills in teapot painting.” We are in llama grooming.
    I could go on, but I won’t.
    One thing I noticed is that a lot of people don’t understand that there are different formats for Federal government, academia and private industry (we are a non-profit). Don’t send me your 8-page resume that goes back to your summer job 10 years ago – I don’t care! Don’t list every paper you are an author on and every presentation and poster you made – I don’t care! Read the job description! Tell me what I need to know to know that you can do the job! That’s it!

    1. HigherEd on Toast*

      I think it’s a combination of people who are just job-bombing because they really need employment and people who are convinced they would be perfect for everything because of course they’re perfect. It’s no better for academic positions, given the search committees I’ve sat on. People applying for a position that requires a Master’s degree in English with a Chemistry degree because “I’m sure teaching writing can’t be that difficult,” people not sending transcripts or CV’s because “that’s private information,” people telling us that they absolutely must have not only a job for their spouse (not that unusual in academia) but also their grown daughter who “thinks she might like to be a teacher,” people telling us that they need tenure and twice the posted salary range “because that’s what I’m worth.” It’s crazy.

    2. OtterB*

      Years ago I was recruiting for a data analyst for a not-for-profit and our ads specified someone with a degree in psychology, sociology, or related social science and some specified knowledge/interest in data analysis. I remember at least one applicant who must have selected jobs based on the “psychology” keyword and talked in her cover letter about how much she looked forward to providing therapy to our clients. We did some career counseling, but we definitely didn’t do therapy.

      Some of this may be from a requirement of unemployment compensation to submit so many applications a week. People run out of really applicable jobs and then start near-random submissions.

      1. Office Cat*

        “Some of this may be from a requirement of unemployment compensation to submit so many applications a week. People run out of really applicable jobs and then start near-random submissions.”

        I was recently laid off my job and will be starting to collect unemployment soon. I will need to apply to 5 jobs per week to collect unemployment. In this small isolated city I live in there might, with luck, be 1 new job per month that I might have any sort of relevant experience or training for. So I will probably have to send a lot of resumes out to random job openings just to make my quotas.

        Sorry to those folks who will have to deal with my resume that has nothing to do with your job opening.

    3. CAA*

      LOL! Welcome to the wonderful world of resume reviewing. When your HR coordinator gets back, be sure and tell her how much you appreciate what she does.

      I do remember one cover letter that went on and on about how much the sender admired Megacorp X and how it had been a lifelong goal to work there. We were Minicorp Y.

  61. LQ*

    My boss’s boss’s role is open. My boss is applying. That person’s boss called me up this week to basically have me do a reference for my boss. It kind of freaked me out and wound me up even though I was expecting it. (My boss gave me a heads up.) I really want my boss to get it because I think if he doesn’t it’ll be a big enough slap in the face that he may leave. (I think it’s reasonable, especially considering the person he’s going up against. I’d be pissed if I was him and didn’t get the job.)

    Either way this new person will likely end up shaking up a lot of the organizational positions, promoting some other folks and I suspect I’m on the list for both of them to get promoted. It’s making it fairly hard to focus on my day to day because all the work I’m doing right now might be washed away if someone else gets the job.

    How on earth do people focus at times like this? I’ve got stress hives, am not sleeping, and I’m doing what I can to do a good job but I’m really worried I’m slacking? Any strategies?

    1. CAA*

      Two kind of opposite ideas, but one may work for you. It depends which stresses you out less.
      1) Put it out of your mind as much as possible. Go into work every day and pretend that nothing is going to change. Your boss is going to stay your boss and you are just doing the same old job the same old way.
      2) Treat every day as the skills test in a job interview. Assume that everyone is looking at your work and set the bar for excellence.

      1. LQ*

        Oh I kind of like the second one. I tried the first and I can’t do it. Plus both of the two candidates actually want to talk to me about the job at least twice a week. Which is weird and makes it really hard to pretend it isn’t happening.

        But the second one is kind of how I try to act most of the time so I can just lean into that feeling and hope that works.
        Thank you!

  62. HoosierK*

    I’m looking for advice about an awkward work situation. I’m in a short term position similar to a postdoc. It’s over in March, but I’ve applied for a couple jobs that are exactly what I’m looking for. I’m not at the reference stage yet, but I don’t have a lot of relevant references because I’m just out of grad school. My current boss would be by far my best reference but she’s been really fantastic and had made special accommodations for some health issues I have. I’m about to go on a month leave for treatment. I’m worried about what might happen if I get to the references stage while I’m on leave. Should I give them my boss’s name? And if so, how do I tell her I’m thinking of leaving early?

    1. banzo_bean*

      If you have a good relationship with her I would just try to sit down and talk to her about the your timeline for the position ending.
      “I know my term technically ends in March, but as I start planning for my next steps I’d love to discuss what kind of flexibility I have in terms of leaving early. I’ve found a few positions that are exactly what I’m looking for but they would start before the end of my appointment.”
      Would you be able to push back the start date if hired somewhere so you could meet in the middle? “I’m currently in a great postdoc position that doesn’t expire until March. I have a little flexibility on my end date, but I’m wondering I could possibly defer starting to give them a little more time.”
      And for sure tell your current boss if you’ll use her as a reference. People leave positions early, and hopefully she will understand you have to start looking before March.

  63. banzo_bean*

    I recently attended a round table discussion with a *very* exclusive guest list (congressman, mayor, etc). The purpose of the discussion was to talk about how changes in our industry will affect the district I live in. I was selected as a student representative to present on a project, and several other businesses sent representatives to present their projects.
    Everyone was very impressed with my work, and I made a lot of great connections; however, I did not get a chance to talk to the business I was most excited to hear speak. Their projects line up with the EXACT niche of teapots I would like to be involved in after graduating (in December). Overall the round table was pretty small ~20 people, would it be weird to reach out to the representative from this business on LinkedIn or via email? If not, what would I say?
    “I love your projects, you make the coolest teapots?”

    1. Purt's Peas*

      That’s so cool! Did you hear the rep speak? If so, it’s totally reasonable to reach out and tell them that you enjoyed their presentation a lot but didn’t get a chance to tell them so at the round table.

    2. OtterB*

      I think a short email along the line of “enjoyed the roundtable and your presentation, wanted to talk to you and am sorry I didn’t get the chance. I love your projects.”

      In my opinion you could ask for an informational interview if you genuinely want to talk about that niche of the business and how to position yourself for it. You should not do that if what you really want to say is “hire me!”

  64. Lunavesca*

    I’ve been job hunting over the past month or so, after about 12 years with the same company. It’s the only job I’ve held post-college. I get a lot of phone screen interviews and one of the questions they always seem to ask is why I’m leaving my current job after so long. I have a prepared answer with why I’m leaving in general, but I’m not sure what to do about the “so long” part. What is the red flag they might be seeing here?

    The true answer is that I’ve come to realize I’m a frog that’s been slowly boiled in the pot of bad management and bad culture, I’ve made no professional improvements in years, and I’ve only recently gained the self confidence to do something about it. Obviously this is not what I tell interviewers.

    1. banzo_bean*

      I think the “so long” part is just a turn of phrase. I’d stick with whatever you answer is about leaving that you have crafted and just tack on something like “It will be hard to leave after 12 years- but I’m excited about new opportunities.”
      Leave all the other stuff about bad management/lack of professional development behind. They don’t need to know that/want to hear that.

    2. CAA*

      The red flag they see is a concern that after 12 years you are so steeped in the culture and work methods of this one employer that you’ll have difficulty adapting to a new environment. (Have you ever worked with someone where it seemed like every sentence started with “at my old company we …”?)

      You can address this by making it clear that you feel like you’ve stayed there longer than you should have and you’re really anxious to work in a new environment with more modern tools and processes or whatever makes sense in your industry.

    3. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      I didn’t have 12 but I was close to 10. For me it was a career change. I would say things like “I was really interested in X and found it to be my passion, so I’m looking for a company that deals more with X and Y.”

      If you have something like that, I’d use it. You mentioned the professional improvements? Maybe something like, “I’ve really enjoyed my time at X! Recently in the field there have been lots of new developments in llama grooming and camel wrangling, which is something not really suited to X (or “not something they plan to pursue”). I’m really looking to learn more and develop my skills in those areas, and I know your company is known for the latest in llama grooming tips and research.”

    4. Karo*

      Last year, after working there 10 years, I left the first job I had after college. I generally went with I learned everything from that position that I could/I don’t want to stagnate/professional growth is important to me.

      Good luck!!

  65. new girl*

    I’m fairly new to my job, about four months in. I’ve learned new things and have gotten the hang of things for the most part. Here’s my issue: My boss gets very frustrated when I need clarification on instructions given, or she gets mad when [minor and easily fixable] mistakes are made. This happens because I am NEW. She tends to explain things to me in a way that would probably make perfect sense if I had also been working here for two decades, but I still am learning processes here. Sometimes, I get tasks that are done on an annual, quarterly, etc basis so it’s my first time doing something and she gets so angry if I miss something that was not explained clearly. She also often misspeaks, she says one thing when she means the other. For example, She will say ” Pull the file for Mr. Smith and work on that” when what she means and is thinking in her head is “Pull the file for Mr. Schmidt”. She is REALLY bad with this. I get it, we all do it to a point but she does it all the time and gets pissy when I clarify, “Wait– Mr. Smith, or Mr. Schmidt?” . She also just expects me to just KNOW when there’s an exception to how I’ve been told to do thing. One example – I have been told, and it is explicitly written in the manual that when calls come in for the big boss – who is only in office once in a while, that I simply need to take a message and probe for information as much as possible. I have also been told not to disturb her if she is on the phone or talking to someone in the office. One day, she had someone in her office and a call comes in for big boss. I tried taking a message, but the man on the other end seemed a little angry and refused to divulge any info about the purpose of his call. I got his name and then sent my boss a message to let her know about the call. she then snapped and yelled at me that I should have gotten her for the call, it was important, blah blah blah. I was shocked. I told her calmly that I tried to get a message and the man refused and had said it was a personal matter. I also reminded her that she had asked me not to disturb her if she had someone in the office, and also that when calls came in all I needed to do was email her the message – so even if no one was in the office, I still would have simply emailed her. She can be absolutely insufferable, but for the time being I need to deal with it. Any advice?

    1. Super Anonywoman*

      Start job searching!! And if that isn’t possible, start going to therapy. None of this is good or normal, and nothing you can do can change this person. You are asking perfectly reasonable things, and no human is a mind reader.

      There is nothing you can do to make this better except leave. People like her don’t usually change.

    2. Havarti*

      Agree with Super Anonywoman. Get out because this person isn’t remotely reasonable and is a horrible boss.

    3. Art3mis*

      I had this same situation at my last job. She wasn’t my boss, but she was a long term employee that was friends with our boss. Boss said she was a neutral party but always sided with her on everything. Boss and Boss’s boss would warn me “You just have to work around her” etc. Everyone else in the office told me how difficult she was to work with. But it was always my fault that I wasn’t “getting it.” I started job searching at about 2 months. I’ve worked with a lot of types of people over the years, but that was too much for me. I tried everything, seeing things from her POV, taking detailed notes, asking clarifying questions, nothing helped. When I tried a lot of these things, I’d often be scolded for asking the questions, not referring to my notes (which were incomplete b/c she would leave things out), etc. I was even told (by boss and boss’s boss) that I just needed to stand up for myself. Well that went over like a fart in church and nearly started WWIII. I took a pay cut to leave that crazy behind.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      and document everything – take notes when she talks, send email confirmation after a meeting/training session a la “I’ve put together my notes from the training and wanted to confirm details X, Y, and Z as there was a bit of an issue last time” so that you can point out to her that it was in writing that she said Smith not Schmidt.

    5. LilySparrow*

      She wants you to use judgement and discretion, but refuses to give you proper training or information to enable you. Then she blames you for not being psychic. That is nonsense.

      While you are looking for a new place, here’s my experience with what works to survive this kind of crazy maker with minimal damage.

      1) Detatch. Always remember that this is nonsense. There is no way to “win” and make her happy, or avoid making her angry, because she’s irrational. You also will not “win” by getting her to admit she was wrong, or change. You win by not playing.

      Do the right thing, and the reasonable thing, according to your own judgment and the objective standards you have at hand. Don’t gauge whether you were right or wrong by her response.

      2) Deliberately cultivate a neutral expression and tone of voice. This isn’t a long-term personality change, it’s code-switching to cope with this environment. Agree with her, don’t push back or argue. But don’t give her anymore reaction to her nonsense than you can help. Flow like water.

      When you check if it’s Smith or Schmidt, spell it. When she gets pissy, say “I wanted to make sure I heard you right.”

      But don’t say it self-deprecatingly. Say it as flatly as possible.

      With the phone thing, don’t cite the policy in an effort to convince her. Cite it the way Mr Spock cites Starfleet regulations, and ask what procedure she wants you to follow instead. When she tells you, write it down and email it to her: “Per your instructions, here is how I will be handling interruptions for potentially high-priority calls, going forward.”

      The neutral demeanor can carry a whiff of “Fuck you,” if taken too far. Ease into it. The furthest you want to take it is to leave her vaguely wondering if that’s what you’re thinking, deep down. Don’t be surly. A pleasant, neutral, relaxed mask.

      3) Remember that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Expect that you will be met with irrational obstacles, unreasonable demands, and unfair criticism. Don’t let it throw you.

      She is never going to start being fair or reasonable. On a good day, she may be more easygoing. But again, that’s about whatever’s going on with her. Not because of anything you did.

      There is a potential side benefit here. There are some flavors of crazy maker who find the neutral demeanor very unsettling. The less reactive you are to her irritation or anger, the more self-assured you appear to be. If she is the type who creates chaos in order to feel normal, then your steadiness will leave her feeling uncertain and off balance. She may start toning herself down or backing off in response.

      That doesn’t always happen. She might stay the same, or get worse.

      But the important thing is to separate your self, your feelings and self-assessment, from the chaos she cultivates. It’s her circus and her monkeys. You just work there – for now.

      Good luck, and I hope you find a new, great job soon!

  66. Bob1138*

    If you’ve been actively approached by someone to apply for a role on their team, how would (or should) you mention that in a cover letter? Person who approached is not the hiring manager, but works for her. I’m 99% sure they’ve talked about me before and the hiring manager would want to interview me strictly based off my reputation and LI profile. This is a role that is very difficult to fill, and I’ve been reticent about applying since I’m not truly available until January. I’m probably way overthinking things (haven’t applied to a job in over 15 years).

    1. new girl*

      Maybe add in a line like “My friend Jane Smith mentioned this job to me, and I think it sounds like an incredible team to be part of…”

      That’s probably not the best way to phrase it but it’s an idea. I think you could name drop in your cover letter and then go into why you’re interested in the job based off what they told you.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’ve done something like, “I learned about this opening through Jane Smith, who encouraged me to apply.”

  67. ramonaflowers89*

    I had an in-person interview yesterday which went fine – I didn’t come away having any feeling like “that was amazing!” or “that went terribly!” The head panelist said that they would get back to me in a week since they have to wait for other people to get back in the office to make a decision. The head panelist also mentioned that some potential issue with funding was just past down to her that morning, so they would need time to straighten that out.

    I got a form rejection email 3 hours after I left the building (this form letter is what I get when I don’t even get to phone interview stage at this employer – big state university). I was really upset to be rejected so quickly since they had given me an actual timeline, which makes me think that I just sucked so bad in their eyes to the point they just wanted to make sure I never came back to their office. I figured if it was a funding issue, they would have told me in a direct email from the HR person running the search for them (who had contacted me directly about setting up interview times), not just a generic letter from their ATS system.

    Honestly, I had some concerns about the job being the right fit for me, so I was not so much upset at losing the job versus the way I was rejected. Do same-day rejections after in-person interviews mean anything, especially if it goes against the timeline they gave you? I know I’m lucky to get rejections at all, but I feel waiting 24 hours would not have killed anyone and would have left me with a better impression of that division.

    1. new girl*

      It’s possible that they already had a candidate in mind, but had you scheduled anyway or interviewed people for show because someone was being hired internally. Those copy and paste reject letters suck, but I think it sounds like they had their minds made up before your interview but they had to do your interview anyway for whatever reason.

    2. LQ*

      I think there are a couple of very real possibilities here, that the funding issue turned out to be way bigger and not just a straighten out thing seems very likely.

      I don’t think that you can tea leaves a rejection like that. Especially with other factors like the funding comment.

    3. Alianora*

      It’s not very tactful, no. It could be that you mentioned something that would be a dealbreaker for them. Or like new girl said, they already had someone else they were mentally comparing you to. I doubt it’s personal.

      1. ramonaflowers89*

        Maybe my salary requirements? The minimum salary was posted as $45k and I asked for $50k (or else I would have been taking a pay cut from my last job). I moved from a high COL (East Coast city) to a lower (small Midwestern city) COL area, so everyone keeps telling me to adjust my salary expectations accordingly, but I was already underpaid at my last job and I don’t want to perpetuate that. I don’t think $50k is an outrageous ask, especially considering I have a master’s in biology and several years experience in student services (which is the field I’m going for). But maybe I overshot myself in their eyes.

        I just want to check my emotional response that it was a bit tactless to do that to me was valid. I know nothing’s personal in the job search, but I have been looking for 9 months and am really discouraged at this point, so it’s hard not to take it personally.

    4. Not your Dad's Recruiter*

      Since that was a panel interview, they may have gotten together for a debriefing, and collectively decided on a ‘pass’.
      As a recruiter, I am ambivalent on when to communicate the rejection. On the one hand, why wait if it was an easy decision. On the other hand – somehow it does hurt a candidate’s feelings to get rejection so quickly, as ramonaflowers89 indicated – although I do not understand why it would have been better 24 hours later.
      Some companies do not have ‘maybe’s – it is either yes or no, and the time of a decision depends only on when all of the panel members are available for a debriefing session.

  68. Seifer*

    I had a sit down with my boss and grandboss and grandboss told me that he’s noticed that I’m doing super well and they want to promote me. Great! Except he wants me to perform at the level of the promotion without the title or the pay for six months and then they’ll reassess whether they want to give me the promotion. Um… that’s not normal, yeah?

    On the plus side, I argued him down to three months, and we’re getting kicked out of the office today early for a long weekend, so… I guess I’ll stuff my face and figure out how I’m going to perform at the higher level without any of the authority to back myself up?

    1. banzo_bean*

      No, that’s really weird. I would tell boss and grandboss exactly what you said in the last sentence “I’m worried about how I will be able to perform at a higher level without any authority to back me up?”
      Trial and probationary periods are normal but normally those come with the title change.

    2. irene adler*

      IS this how all promotions are handled- 6 mos w/o the title or bump in pay? Or just for you?

    4. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Ugh, I’m sorry. I’ve seen that happen at the public university I used to work at, and I’ve heard about it happening at other large bureaucracies. It’s unfair and illogical.

    5. M*

      This is a red flag. Instead if they are not sure they should maybe evaluate you more or put you on more projects or promote you with a 6 month probationary period. This sounds to me like they want free labor.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I agree on the red flag. The higher level work should be compensated at higher title/pay because objectively that’s its value to the company. You would be doing the higher level work for cheap, and unless there’s a written agreement (which is usually worth the paper it’s written on) that you will either receive the promotion in full at the 3 month period or go back to your normal work, there’s nothing stopping them from somehow needing another 3-6 month evaluation period, and so on and so on.

        My other immediate thought was, they just want you to be doing the higher level spot (for cheap) until they hire someone to take that spot.

        So, unless this is a well established and trusted company process that everyone goes through and you’re okay with that, I would take all those accolades about your work and your ability to fill a higher role and use them as motivation to look elsewhere for that higher role + salary bump now.

    6. TechWorker*

      I have also heard about places where this happens and *basically* had it happen to me (a bunch of the responsibility was unofficially but effectively dumped on me – but I did eventually get the promotion). It’s definitely not good practice but unfortunately I don’t think it’s completely unheard of.

  69. Morning reader*

    I’ve been watching some old TV shows, “Frazier,” which began in 1993, and “NCIS,” from 2003. My topic is in regard to workplace norms regarding sexual banter, harassment, and flirting. Now I realize these are fictional and do not reflect real life accurately, but I am constantly startled when the regular characters say or do things that (imho) should have gotten them fired immediately. The Dinozzo character in particular engages in ruthless nonstop harassment of his coworker in every single episode.

    I’ve heard some men say it’s a “scary time” now for them with the metoo movement and they can no longer say whatever pops into their head. I’ve dismissed that with a “just don’t be a glass bowl and you’ll be fine” attitude, but now I’m wondering. Has our normal shifted so far? (I think both the dinozzo character and the bulldog character were considered glass bowls even in their day, but no one objected or did anything about it in the fictional stories so it seemed like this behavior was considered in the range of normal.)

    It’s weird to look back only 15-25 years and be appalled by behavior that I think I previously found obnoxious but not actionable. Side note: also weird to experience nostalgia for a time when our worse president was Bush and our deepest fear was foreign terrorists.

    Not much of a question but I’d enjoy any shared perspectives on this.

    2. Justin*

      Well.

      Everything about NCIS is kind of gross. The weird “haha Ziva messes up English in ways no one ever really would” thing, Gibbs literally hitting people, and DiNozzo being as much of a gross jerk as Weatherly is in real life (google Bull/Eliza Dushku). It is, however, CBS, and it’s pitched toward an older audience with a certain… sensibility. Have things changed this much? Yeah, probably, but also they haven’t changed as much for NCIS’s (huge) audience, or at least that audience wishes they hadn’t changed.

      It’s pretty hard to watch a lot of older shows for these reasons, but this, I believe, is an okay sacrifice (though I still watch some I don’t agree with the messages of).

      Just my take.

    3. Poppy*

      I’ve actually also been re-watching NCIS lately and I agree on your points about Dinozzo.
      One of the things I’ve found most interesting is how the cultural attitudes and awareness around the trans community in particular have changed. (for instance nobody would call someone a transvestite on television now in the same manner they use repeatedly on NCIS’s early seasons)
      I don’t think our normal has shifted ‘so far’ there was definitely a sense then that Gibbs’ team in particular was behaving inappropriately – it came up every time they interacted with a different agency or during the harassment seminars.
      I think the difference is that it was seen as television isn’t real life, nobody would be that blatant in real life and anyways that isn’t our lane. (Plus at CBS in particular people at the top were invested in normalizing inappropriate behavior)

    4. Anon9*

      This discussion always comes up and no, normal has not shifted in the sense that women have always been uncomfortable with this sort of thing. People are now being empowered to tell people “hey could you please f-ck off with the sexism & racism? thx” and others finally feel empowered to validate that & people are finally being held responsible for their actions (kinda).

      Before Frasier’s time, there was the classic “boss chases his secretary around the desk”/Madmen era stuff. We learned (i.e. after much trouble, women said “yeah no more of that at least”) gradually that was very much Not Okay. People were vehemently against women’s suffrage and ‘women’s lib’ when they were new as well – and the discussion about metoo echoes the discussions people were having then. People are scared when a group decides it no longer wants to be disenfranchised in XYZ way. This is all part of a natural progression towards treating women like equals.

    5. JeanB in NC*

      I was just thinking about this the other day while watching Stargate: SG-1 and Atlantis. McKay is disgusting but I know I used to find it funny and now I’m revolted. I want to both slap him and send him to HR for sexual harrassment training. And that show ended in 2009!

    6. NACSACJACK*

      Consider this – some of us grew up on programs like that and thought that was normal office behavior. And we wonder why so many of us get in trouble.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Sorry to break it to you, but I grew up with shows older than that, and if you thought Bulldog was normal then you were either up way past your bedtime, or you had other issues with your “normal” filter.

        I find comedies and things played for comedy a lot less problematic than more dramatic shows that heavily reinforced the idea of work as a dating pool, and that women’s #1 or only concerns at work revolved around romance. Which is still very much in play.

        But it used to be even more egregious, of course – everything from the soft lights and romantic music every time a woman walked on the bridge of the Starship Enterprise, to Ally McBeal or Gray’s Anatomy.

        That’s the stuff that can really warp people’s boundaries, because it normalizes feeling hinky, intimidated, or pressured as if it were a legit part of both work and relationships.

    7. Lora*

      Am an old Gen Xer and was in first job / later grad school during these years.

      It was always gross, and if you reported it to HR most of the time there were no consequences and/or you were tagged as a Troublemaker and pushed out or fired on a bullsh!t excuse. They had training on Why Harassment And Bigotry Are Bad even back then, too, though the production quality of the video trainings has improved somewhat; I recall the first ones I saw in the ’90s as being sort of hilariously awful.

      None of that has actually changed, which is the depressing part. At this point the only thing I’ve seen work successfully is bad behavior resulting in swift public firings.

    8. The New Wanderer*

      There was an interesting couple of scenes in an old Magnum PI episode (early 80s?) involving a female junior officer and a male superior officer (Colonel), where the Col was totally rude to the junior officer. She definitely telegraphed irritation and disgust at the treatment and even muttered “chauvinist” at one point.

      Later, there’s a scene featuring those two, an admiral, and Magnum, where M observes the treatment of the junior officer by the chauvinist and by the admiral (who seemed neutral/baseline respectful). Admiral orders the junior officer to drive Magnum home and she awkwardly invites M to the O Club for a drink. He studies her and then laughs and theorizes out loud about why she agreed to do that (the obvs ploy to get info from M). He concludes it couldn’t have been the Col because he doesn’t respect her, so it must have been the Admiral. Then asks her how far she was supposed to go if needed. She grits her teeth and says “Just one drink, that’s all.”

      It was weird to watch.

      But then again, while I love Brooklyn 99, some of the scenes are absolutely cringe-worthy and actionable and that’s very current.

    9. Zephy*

      I mean, to be fair, Michael Weatherly (the actor who plays DiNozzo on NCIS) is also kind of a glassbowl in real life.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          Yes it’s a way people on some sites get around cursing filters. This site doesn’t have one, but it’s either a habit that persists, or just something people find either amusing or convenient to do if they prefer not to actually curse.

    10. Policy Wonk*

      I am often appalled at the lyrics to songs I used to sing along with in high school. They are so sexist/mysogynist.
      What was I thinking?

    11. Anon with no name*

      NCIS is terrible (especially Tony) with regards to sexual banter, harassment…. and I’ll stop before I start ranting about how much I can’t stand Tony.

  70. Asocially Yours*

    How do you navigate sharing an office space with someone?

    I’ve been treating it as though we are still both in separate office spaces, which means only necessary verbal interruptions. Because we perform similar roles with separate duties, this means in theory there should be no talking.

    My co-worker, however, seems to expect a fair bit more chattiness that I’m simply unwilling and unable to give. I get unnecessary updates on their projects, personal questions out of nowhere, and awkwardly obvious attempts to start conversation.

    I get that most people do speak with their coworkers at least semi-regularly, but I really just want to complete my tasks in relative peace and solitude.

    1. Purt's Peas*

      You’ll probably have to say something! I think it’s pretty normal to have a fairly social relationship with an officemate, especially if you’re the only two in the office.

      Headphones will help here. You could say at some point, “this is awkward, but I usually need a pretty quiet and interruption-free space to do my work. If I have my headphones on, I’m not really open for chatting.”

      1. Asocially Yours*

        Follow-up question: What if you *don’t* want a fairly social relationship with an officemate?

        The reality is, I’m just not a big talker no matter what environment you put me in. It’s not that I *need* silence to work, but that silence is my preferred reality. I’m the master of communicating via wordless sounds (e.g., grunts, hums) and nonverbal cues.

        Add onto this that conversations wear me out, and my role is already heavily client-facing (and filled with conversations). I don’t have the mental space or fortitude to manage yet another social relationship. I guess what I really want is a polite way of conveying, “Please stop trying to make this happen because it is not going to happen.”

        (I do like the headphone suggestion, though, and encourage anyone in similar situations to use it. Unfortunately, they don’t allow any electronic or related devices where I work.)

        1. bigX*

          > I’m the master of communicating via wordless sounds (e.g., grunts, hums) and nonverbal cues.

          You sound like my little brother, who I absolutely adore, but I worry he comes off as rude because he’s always grunting and humming as well – he’s a great listener/sounding-board because of this but he simply doesn’t care to continue a conversation he doesn’t want to have. If it’s to me, I know it’s how he is but others look offended when he does that. So I don’t think you can call yourself a master of wordless communication unless others have confirmed it because grunts and hums aren’t always taken well and I saw down-thread you don’t want to be seen as icy so I thought I would bring this up here.

          You need to use words and explain to your office-mate that it’s nothing personal but you have to conserve your social energy for work and that you aren’t a big conversationalist. Long term, it would be great if you two could get other office-mates because it sounds like you both need a different work environment, which is totally valid. We spend 40 hours at that place, it ought to be at least a little tolerable in a personal way.

    2. new girl*

      I agree with Purt’s peas that headphones can help. You could also just try to gently say “Hey, I love chatting, it’s fun to talk while we work but I really need to focus on this and it’s difficult to do this while also talking.” Try that, mixed with initiating conversations once in a while so you seem kind and not icy.

      1. Asocially Yours*

        As I mentioned upthread, I guess what I really want is a polite way of conveying, “Please stop trying to make this happen because it is not going to happen.”

        Because I don’t love chatting and it isn’t fun to talk while we work – but obviously I can’t say things like that out loud, because then I’m the jerk. I don’t mind being seen as icy but I don’t want to be rude, either.

        1. Filosofickle*

          I gently suggest you consider if you can tolerate a middle ground. What you’re asking for is that you get all of what you want (quiet and no socializing), and they don’t get what want (a more sociable environment)… and that is actually kind of rude IMO. You both have to share this space together, and it seems fair that both of you bend a bit.

        2. Alianora*

          I don’t think there is a polite way of saying that, to be honest.

          If you keep stonewalling her she’ll probably eventually get the hint, but she’ll also probably be uncomfortable around you. I’m probably the quietest person in every office I’ve worked in, but sharing an office with a coworker who won’t exchange basic pleasantries is a pretty unpleasant working environment for me.

          1. Asocially Yours*

            Can you explain why it is unpleasant? For me, such solitude would be a relief, especially when in this case a basic exchange of pleasantries can easily lead to an honest, in-depth response – which is not how these things are supposed to work!

            I say I’m good, you say you’re good, and we could both be lying but that’s okay. The exchange is not supposed to be a genuine expression of interest; there’s a script.

            1. new girl*

              Some like solitude, some like a little socializing. It might not hurt to find some middle ground. Just as you need the quiet, maybe they need a little interaction to keep from getting too bored or going crazy. I also prefer quiet and solitude but it can be nice to talk to someone once in a while. If they give you quiet, maybe give back and give them some conversation. It goes both ways, you both need to have your needs met.

            2. Alianora*

              I would find it unpleasant because I would always feel on edge around that person, like anything I do is bothering them. I couldn’t help but feeling like this person actively disliked me. The exchange of pleasantries is basically a way to say, “hey, you’re a human, I’m a human, I acknowledge that you’re more than just a work machine.” I don’t feel that it isn’t genuine, it’s just a small, nonthreatening way to briefly connect.

              I enjoy solitude, but if there’s another person in the room it does not register as solitude to me. It makes me uneasy if the person I spend that much time with is a complete unknown.

              It’s also nice to have someone around who you can commiserate with if something is going wrong, or who you can talk to if you’re burnt out on work and need to think about something else for a little bit.

            3. Filosofickle*

              You answered why it would feel unpleasant: “I’m just extremely asocial and disinterested in most other people.” It would feel uncomfortable to me to work next to someone who is so disinterested in me as a coworker and a human — actually, it would feel downright hostile. And I do expect a genuine expression of interest from someone I share space with! Or at least not to be treated like an inanimate object. As has been discussed a lot recently in AAM threads, it’s pretty extreme not to engage in basic pleasantries with colleagues. You are free to opt out, but it may well impact your effectiveness and reputation. Social capital has real value.

    3. Alianora*

      In addition to what others have said, I think it would be worthwhile for you to initiate conversations once in a while. That way, you can regulate when they happen and maintain a good relationship with your coworker. For instance, you could have a little chat with them each morning when they come in before you get into work mode, or maybe right after lunch.

      Maybe one good conversation every couple days is all they’re after, but since you’re not responsive they’re making multiple attempts. If you’re the one initiating conversation, it’ll probably decrease the overall interruptions.

      1. Asocially Yours*

        Is it possible to have a good – or at least neutral – relationship with a coworker without having conversations?

        I guess I ask because I already dread coming into the office knowing this co-worker will try to initiate as soon as I walk in. So, the idea of having to initiate a conversation, even if it’s only every few days, is about as enjoyable a washing dishes.

        But in addition, there really isn’t a more convenient/preferable time *to* talk. I’m just extremely asocial and disinterested in most other people.

        1. Alianora*

          Mm, I think that would be difficult with this particular coworker. I’ve had decent working relationships with coworkers I don’t really make small talk with, but those coworkers are people with whom I don’t share a physical workspace. If I did, and my attempts at greeting them in the morning were always ignored, I would start seeing them differently.

          If you’re asking “will they still work with me,” then yes, they’ll probably be professional. They probably won’t go out of their way to help you, and they probably won’t enjoy being around you. So I guess it’s up to you to decide if that’s acceptable.

          FWIW there are coworkers I dislike chatting with also, but I ask them about their weekends from time to time because it helps my reputation as a professional, friendly person, which does make my working life easier.

    4. Been there done that*

      “I’ve been treating it as though we are still both in separate office spaces”

      But you’re not in separate office spaces – you’re in shared space and need to make that adjustment or go to your boss and ask to be moved. Honestly it’s coming across as if you want to treat the office as your own and the coworker as if she’s an inanimate object such as a desk so that you don’t have to have any interaction with them. I went through something more extreme after an office move where I had to share an office with my coworker, after she previously had her own office. She was furious with her manager that it happened but wouldn’t say anything to him. A simple good morning/evening was ignored completely – I kept saying it anyhow out of sheer bloody mindedness. She simply pretended I didn’t exist. Enough people saw her behavior that it got back to her manager and she was told to be civil or she could be on her own in a cubicle. It definitely changed how other people in the org viewed her after that.

  71. Angwyshaunce*

    Update from a question I asked here a few weeks ago.

    I mentioned that I had a review coming up, and was expecting a nice raise. I asked for thoughts on whether it would be appropriate to ask for an extra week of vacation on top of the raise I was expecting. (The consensus was, go for it, just be prepared to hear “no”.)

    So I thought, what the heck, I may as well just ask and keep my expectations low.

    My boss said yes immediately!

    I probably wouldn’t have had the confidence to ask if not for what I’ve read on this site. So thank you contributors, especially those who responded to my post. And thank you Alison!

  73. CogintheWheel*

    I just need to vent a little and maybe get a little advice about how to cope with a toxic workplace while I continue the long (and so far unsuccessful) slog of trying to find new position.

    My non-profit opened a major new venture last year, which I was brought on two years ago to work toward. The work was good, I liked the team, and while I wasn’t always a huge fan of some the opinions coming out of the Board I was confident that our mission and our staff’s integrity would weather it. Our mission often coincides with some controversial topics that are in the news a lot; the staff wanted to meet these things head on and be at the forefront of open discussion and (hopefully) reconciliation; the Board mostly wanted to avoid talking about anything even remotely negative. They won maybe 50% of those battles.

    Project-wise, things were going smoothly and we launched within budget, though with little accompanying attention from the public. There was some concern about this but we all figured things would pick up as word got out etc. A couple of months later I went on maternity leave.

    While I was gone, it became clear that apparently things were a lot worse financially than I realized. The CEO retired (not entirely of his own accord) and a month later there was a significant round of layoffs. I returned from maternity leave on a Monday; that Friday, my boss and grandboss were let go because they were unpopular with the Board. Since then things have only gone downhill; between additional layoffs and people leaving in droves, we’re down to a skeleton crew. Morale is in the tank, more because of how leadership is foundering rather than the money. The Board continues to micro-manage and censor anything they think might rock the boat too much, while newly-appointed leaders keep asking all of us NON-PROFIT staff why we’re not making more money for the organization.

    All in all, things have gone really downhill this year. Over half my team has either been fired or left, and the rest of us are all just waiting for our chance to get out. I’ve been job hunting since May but it’s a niche field with few open positions. No luck so far, and meanwhile every day something new happens to make me think “Ugh, I really need to get out of here.”

    So, advice: How did/do you cope with a toxic workplace? How do you maintain motivation when everything that used to drive you to do good work is gone or crumbling? I find myself swinging between being angry about what’s happened, to mourning the job I used to have, to hope that things will turn around, to just plain despair and a driving need to get out get out get out.

    Send hugs and cookies.

    2. Out of Retail*

      Getting out is the best thing, but since you’re already working on that:
      – don’t forget to take some *real* time off. Even if it’s just one weekend afternoon or something. Job hunting is a job in and of itself, so make sure you have some time where you’re not expecting yourself to get anything done and you can regroup a little.
      -Dissociation isn’t great, but may be functional? It may be the time to pretend your an undercover spy gathering intel for a secret mission.
      -In a really bad place, to be honest, by go-to was to stop and breath, and spend a minute meditating on a vision of Godzilla eating the entire Board and C-Suite.

  74. WorkinWoman*

    So for the next two months, I have a contracting gig working at the same place as my husband. It’s the same department but once I am trained, we’ll be in different buildings. Any advice? I’ve worked there several years ago so I won’t be a total newbie.

    I know not to use any terms of endearment but what else? Thanks!

    1. Angwyshaunce*

      I would suggest putting a boundary in place against people trying to access your husband through you (unless doing so would be part of your job).

      “Can you ask husband (question) for me?”

      “I think it would be better if you asked him that directly.”

    2. TechWorker*

      Try not to talk shop at home (*especially* if you were in a situation where you disagreed over something work related at work – just do not mention it haha). Also be wary of people assuming you know things because Steve knows them – definitely easier all round to just not talk about work in detail and then you don’t have awkward moments where it’s obvious you have info you otherwise wouldn’t :)

      Try not to base your opinions of people on your husbands opinion (might not be an issue but if your husband really doesn’t get on with Steve and you go in already thinking Steve’s a bit of an asshole, then you could end up also having an awkward working relationship vs without the history it might have been fine).

  75. Kesnit*

    I’m sure everything is fine. I just need some reassurance so I can shut down the freak-out in my head…

    I had a pretty bad flat tire driving to work this morning. I knew the head of the office (“Henry”) was out, so sent a text to the #2 person (with picture because the tire was shredded and I thought he would find it interesting). I told #2 I would be in once I got my car straightened out. #2 replied joking that the tire was still driveable (he knew it wasn’t) and wished me luck with my car. (I do not have a spare tire.)

    About an hour later, while waiting for the tow, Henry called, asking where I was. Apparently when our office manager didn’t see me and no one told her I was out, she called Henry to see if he had heard from me. (No, #2 did not tell her that I had texted.) I told Henry that I had a flat, had texted #2, and was waiting for a tow. Henry told me that #2 is really bad about passing messages and asked what my plans were once I got my car taken care of. I told him I would be in once my car was delivered for repair and assured him I didn’t have anything that would need to be covered this morning.

    I arrived about 2 hours late and have already put in for 2 hours of leave. (I have plenty of leave.) I spoke to #2 and told him about Henry’s call, and he apologized and said he was at fault for not telling our office manager.

    Did I screw something up? Should I have texted Henry, even though it’s Labor Day Weekend and I knew he was out yesterday and today? (I don’t know if he was going somewhere with his family or not.) I feel like letting #2, who is in charge of the office today, know that I was running behind would be enough, but after that call, I’m not sure.

    1. banzo_bean*

      No, you did right thing. You had no way of knowing #2 wouldn’t tell the rest of the office about your flat. If Henry knew that #2 is bad about passing information along he should tell his team to contact either the office manager or someone else about anything important in his absence.
      Communication errors happen, everyone was probably just worried about you. It might be worth asking Henry how to handle a similar situation moving forward once he’s back.

      1. OtterB*

        Yes, this. You didn’t do anything wrong. Check with Henry, but it seems to me like texting/emailing the office manager in addition to #2 might be the way to go in the future.

        1. valentine*

          #2 did a #2 job. If possible, skip him and tell the office manager. Seems like she would’ve told Henry.

    2. Karo*

      Not only did you not do anything wrong, you did the right thing given the situation and what you knew about your office. That said, now that you know that #2 is unlikely to pass the info along, I’d recommend also texting the office manager in the future. Something to the effect of “FYI, I told #2 but I’m going to be late today. See you soon!”

      1. Wishing You Well*

        Agreed.
        A coworker pulled something like this on me for the first time. Other coworkers knew he was like this, but thought somehow by osmosis I would know, too. Well, now I know. I kinda resented being told I should have known. How, mindreading?
        You’re fine.

    3. Tea and Sympathy*

      I agree with others, that you did nothing wrong, and that should check with Henry and ask what he would like you to do if the situation arises again. I would also go to the office manager as a good will gesture and say something like “Sorry for the confusion the other day. I texted #2, and thought that he would tell you what was going on. If this ever comes up again I will (whatever Henry told you to do).” This is not admitting fault, just an understanding that the office manager was inconvenienced. It’s been my experience that this is the type of small gesture that goes a long way.

  76. jobhunter*

    Is it ever a good idea to bring up your negatives in a cover letter? Ex. “What I lack in [formal education and professional certifications] I make up for in [on-the-job knowledge and informal education]. [Insert examples here]”

    1. irene adler*

      Drop the “what I lack” part and go with showcasing the “on-the -job knowledge and informal education”. You are not expected to assess your negatives and positives; rather, you want to show yourself in your best light. Let the reader decide what might be constitute a negative about you. Don’t help them with this part.

    2. MissGirl*

      Nope, I had a friend try this and it came off as all the reasons she was wrong for the position. Don’t draw attention to what’s not there, focus on what is.

  77. Anon For Today*

    I have been slowly going mad at unhelpful coworkers who have access to things I don’t whose help I need to do my job – and who simply ignore requests for help – and every time I talk to one of my coworkers about it his response is always “they would help if you asked”. Same coworker had to deal with these people for help and had to ask for two days straight before getting any help. I know I shouldn’t, but I’m feeling slightly amused at his frustration. He has stopped saying anything about me not asking for help for the time being. (And yes, I know I need to leave this place, but the job market in my country and area is not particularly hot at the moment, so I’m holding on to this one while looking)

    1. De Minimis*

      That was a huge part of why I left my last job. We also had poor working relationships between the other departments. The culture was at a point where we would have to meet together to create a justification before requesting information from the other department.

      I was told that a lot too by my supervisor. “People will help you if you ask.” Yeah right.

      1. Anon For Today*

        Yup, I get told that all the time. And then I also get pressured about work someone else should have done and didn’t that happens to affect mine. People who don’t report to me. I want to ask if these people putting the pressure on think I should just do their job (which is impossible due to access/skills) but I’m scared they will say “of course, that’s the solution! Just do their job!”

    2. MaxiesMommy*

      But now it’s not just you, it’s your whole department. Show your boss the hours that are wasted while you ask and ask and ASK for info. Ask why your dept isn’t respected (we’re treated like an inconvenience!) and then see how your dept can get access to that info. I’d also start copying your boss and that dept’s boss in my emails, because I bet the other dept head thinks things are fine.

      1. Anon For Today*

        Sadly it’s not info, it’s processes that have to be done and have specific access to people with a certain skill set. And sadly, I have brought this up to the boss several times. Nothing has really fixed it, so I’m working on fixing things by making my way out.

    3. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      I think you’re doing well not to say, “they would help if you asked” with your straightest expression. :D

      1. Anon For Today*

        I feel soooo tempted. But this is a high drama coworker and I don’t want to invite it. x.x

    4. Anon For Today*

      Updates so far:
      I got roped into a meeting to “talk about the problem” – WITHOUT the offending department. Because… that will fix it?

      And high drama coworker (who is senior to me but not my boss) decided that I need to be the source of information I don’t have and share it with other people. It’s gonna be a fun week.

  78. Justin*

    (Sorry I’m mostly writing about school but my job is boring. I dealt with The Boor (he still sucks, but he got told to cut out the microaggressive jokes, so I know management supports me), and it’s boring. Whatever. Bills paid.)

    I started 20th grade last night, and I’m excited to keep it going. Things are really good on that side. I, as mentioned, got good grades over the summer and it looks like I’ll be published in a journal for the first time this fall. The CV begins to exist. I also created a podcast (on racism and language, called Unstandardized English) and released the first episode yesterday (the audio is bad because I pressed the wrong button on my phone, but people seem to be enjoying it).

    BUT, I got a small fellowship recently after my professor (though not sure which) recommended me for it. It’s not much money, but I’ve realized, with our impending child, this is the first time I’ve ever received money for something I loved while using said money to help support my family. I’ve loved parts of jobs before (eg teaching overseas), but that was my money for funsies. And obviously my job now supports my family (partially), but I don’t love it. So hopefully that’s the first of many times I can experience that feeling. I feel very fortunate to have that occur and don’t want to take it for granted as most do not get that chance.

    Have any of you had that feeling, even briefly?

    1. Youth*

      Yes. After five years, I still can’t believe that I’m getting paid (well!) to write. And with my awesome new job, that feeling has increased tenfold.

    2. Lora*

      Errr…yes and no. I supported The Ex for many years doing things I thoroughly enjoyed, but after a while work became a refuge from The Ex because work was where everything made sense and people were polite-ish. Was nice at first, then became not so much. From colleagues whose adult children can’t seem to leave the nest, I am told this is a common thing…

  79. Hskp week*

    Housekeeping week is coming up and i would like some ideas to use to show appreciation for my staff. I can only think of food because everyone loves food. I have 20 employees and need some not too expensive ideas. We are already catering a meal for the whole team but any other little thank you ideas would be great.

    1. new girl*

      Handwritten thank you cards signed by management would make them feel appreciated, and actual written cards, not just signatures. Taking time to write a short thoughtful message, even if just a little sentence or two. If budget allows, maybe some extra cash or gift card (even $5-$10 at a local coffee shop ) If possible, allowing them to leave work early (with pay) the day of the catered meal would be amazing. I know that might be expensive in the end, but I know I would love that.

    2. Anono-me*

      The place where I used to work belonged to an association of companies, and everyone who worked for a member company, was eligible for a discount or promo deal from the member companies. The place where I worked was able to tweak our membership to include everyone who worked in our building including people who were contract cleaners.

    3. Jennie*

      We do a little game day where I’ve worked before. Minute to win it style games with gift card prizes. Who can empty a tissue box the quickest? Who can make a rollaway the quickest?

      Managers will also serve breakfast or a snack to them.

  80. LilacLily*

    So… I didn’t pass the interview.

    I got a generic rejection e-mail on Wednesday, asked for a feedback, and got a reply from the recruiter who spoke to me. He said I did excellent and that I would be a perfect cultural fit with the company, but they were looking for someone with more experience in Teapot maintenance.

    This never fails to stump me. The job posting mentioned the candidate needed experience in Teapot and Kettle maintenance, and although I never worked with Teapots I knew it wasn’t that much different from Kettles, and it was also the only part where I didn’t have experience. Nowhere in my resume does it say that I have ever worked with Teapots, but they still they called me for the interview, and during the interview I was told that 90% of all maintenance work would be for Teapots. I assured the recruiter I could study Teapot maintenance before the technical interview and that I was a a fast learner who could become an expert in Teapots in less than a month. It didn’t matter. They still rejected me.

    I replied thanking the recruiter, explained why Teapot experience isn’t something I could’ve gotten easily where I live – Teapots are usually ten times the price of Kettles – which is why I didn’t have it in the first place, but I understood why they rejected me, was not trying to change their mind at all, and promised to try and study Teapot maintenance for future opportunities. But honestly I’m fucking gutted. For the past two days I’ve been feeling lethargic and ill. I know I can’t take these things personally but I am just tired of my job. I am away from home AT LEAST fourteen hours a day and my office is at a remote location that doesn’t even have a place for people to sunbathe during breaks and it’s killing me. This job would’ve meant a move to a city where it would take me around twenty five minutes to walk to work, in a company that truly cares about their employees well being and at an industry that aligns with my interests and hobbies. I am so tired. I really would like to quit and stay home for a few months just looking at the ceiling and trying to get my shit together, but I have bills to pay. This job search was exhausting in so many levels. I’ve been applying for three months now and this was the only interview I got thus far. It’s awfully demoralizing when you apply for jobs that you’re 80 to 100% qualified for and companies still reject you anyway.

    Why would the guy interview me knowing that nowhere in my resume does it say I have Teapot maintenance experience if he knew this was a deal breaker? It would’ve been kinder to not have me go through the interview at all. I’m really upset and feeling at a loss.

    1. new kid*

      I don’t know that I have any great advice, but I’ve been there and it’s frustrating as hell. Before I got the job I started in May, I went through a super demoralizing 6 month cross country search and the closest I got was a job a close friend recommended me for at her company that I thought I had the perfect skill set for (in fact, experience beyond what they needed). My feedback on rejection was that they needed someone more technical who was already familiar with their (super niche) product. ????? I was devastated. It wasn’t even a ‘we hired someone else with more technical experience’ they literally just rejected me and left the position unfilled even though they were understaffed. I felt so worthless.

      Looking back with some time and distance though, that reaction was just the demoralizing job hunt feels talking, not a reflection of my actual worth as a job candidate (or a human being!) It’s really really really hard to see that in the moment through so I really feel for you. The right job is on the way!!!

      1. LilacLily*

        thank you for the kind words ❤️ job hunting sucks when you’re feeling demoralized and ready to run for the hills at your current job. when I began looking I wasn’t feeling this desperate, but the more time passes the worse things at work get and the more I want to leave asap.

        I told myself I wasn’t going to open LinkedIn again until next week but I did – and I ended up applying for two jobs that I would love to get just as much if not more than the job that rejected me this week! Fingers crossed I get interviews for both of them!

    2. MoopySwarpet*

      Reading between the lines, I think it really means that they had another candidate who *also* had teapot experience. Don’t take it personally at all. I am sure they interviewed you because if they didn’t find someone with the level of teapot experience they wanted, they also knew that kettle experience *could* transfer in a pinch and/or with the right candidate.

      Don’t think of it as a deal breaker . . . think of it as a tiebreaker. You were at the top enough that they interviewed you!

      I hope you find something you love soon!

  81. MarmotMarmot*

    Lost my job yesterday. It was a terrible hellscape but I still feel like shit. My manager was a bully – had something negative to say *every* time I interacted with her. At that point, feedback isn’t constructive, and it’s hard to figure out what to filter out and what to pay attention to/learn from. Oh, and of course she kept her bullying verbal – no paper trail. And she has *her* boss fooled.

    In the year since she was hired, 5/7 people on her team have left or been pushed out. (For comparison, similar teams have had 5%-20% turnover rates).

    I’m embarrassed (what if they’re right about me?!), pissed off, relieved, hurt, scared…ugh. Now what?

    1. Trinity Beeper*

      Agh, I’m sorry to hear that. Given what you have to say about your work, once a little more time passes, I would guess that you’ll start to feel relief.

      Surround yourself with your people and spend the weekend taking care of yourself. Then if you’re ready, you can hit the ground running on Monday trying to figure out your next steps.

      Also maybe get in touch with some of the other 5/7 people? Maybe they can help you go from embarrassment and shame to relief faster.

    2. gbca*

      I’m so sorry. It sounds like you got out of an awful situation, but losing your job still feels terrible. Take a week or so to let yourself do whatever you need to do – wallow, self-care, whatever feels right to you. Then set a date on the calendar to jump into your job search (assuming you’re looking for a job immediately).

      As for how to move forward, do you have anyone who knows you professionally who you can chat with to help boost your confidence about your skills? I just went through a job search while I was not in a great space mentally and was not feeling confident, and I think it showed. Once I got over that slump things went much better and I landed a job.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Now?

      Take a deep breath. It’s going to take some time to recalibrate your normal.

      File for unemployment. Take a couple of days ‘off’ and focus on self care.

      Then, update your resume, let your social networks (LinkedIn, Facebook, etc) know you’re looking, and apply for jobs that interest you and you feel you meet at least 50% of the requirements.

  82. Marian the Librarian*

    Anyone with an MSLIS out there who isn’t working in a library? The salaries are very low where I live. I’ve worked in records management, nonprofits, but am open to new suggestions.

    1. banzo_bean*

      I recently came across a job listing for researcher analyst and the listing specifically called out MSLIS as being desired education. It’s a broad term that sometimes encompasses more techy positions, but could be worth looking at.

    2. DataGirl*

      I have an MLIS and work in IT. I focused on the ‘Information Sciences’ part of the degree in my program and took a couple of tech classes that got me a job doing database work in a non-profit, and that became my career path. In some ways I regret it because I got the degree to work in libraries and never did and now I am far enough from graduation I don’t think I could get hired in a library. On the flip side, I look at what library jobs pay and couldn’t afford to go that route anyway.

    3. merp*

      I do work in a library but briefly looked into business/competitive intelligence and damn, the difference between those salaries is pretty stark. And the research skills are pretty similar, especially if you’ve already worked with business resources in a library.

    4. Polaris*

      I’m working as an assistant at a law firm these days. It’s mostly drafting emails for the attorneys and keeping on top of deadlines and such – not exciting, but steady, and the pay is decent.

  83. Approval is optional*

    I was going to post this in response to a comment on yesterday’s post about bathroom antics, but it was off topic, so I thought I’d bring it here instead. The comment made was along the lines of, ‘it’s a stretch to think HR will be competent.
    Most of the HR staff I have worked with (in my 40+ years in the workforce) have been on the competent/efficient end of the continuum (and the distribution of HR staff along the continuum has been no different than that of finance staff, IT staff etc etc), but there is a pervasive ‘all HR people/departments suck’ attitude on this site I find really strange, and if I was an HR professional I think I’d find it quite insulting and would probably stop reading the blog (or the comments at the very least).
    Why does this attitude exist? I tend to think it’s because a lot of the people reading the letters here don’t understand that the workplaces described therein are 1. a small percentage of actual workplaces, and 2. almost certainly not a representative sample of the population of workplaces, but perhaps I’m wrong and there’s another, rational, explanation.

    1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      My take on the “HR sucks” attitude is that there are A LOT of people who don’t understand what HR professionals do (and don’t do), who they are there to help (hint: the company), and who they answer to (they don’t tell the CEO what to do and managers usually don’t report to them). Those people often get up in a huff when HR hasn’t “done their job” rather than educate themselves on what HR’s job really entails.

    2. Overeducated*

      I think some of these issues are systemic and not personal. For example, I’ve been known to complain even though most of the individual HR staff I’ve worked with have been helpful and knowledgeable. This is because HR has been understaffed for long enough that delays in hiring have caused major ripple effects throughout the organization, and it can be hard to reach people for other issues as well. That’s not the HR staff’s fault! They aren’t all in control of their own department’s staffing plan, they’re doing their best (and it’s finally improving)! But the HR department as a whole can still be a bottleneck, or feel like a black hole from the outside.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      As an HR person, I don’t take it personally.

      I have had people in real life tell me HR horror stories. So I know there are inept incompetent HR people out there that make people feel like they’re unheard, unappreciated and treated like cattle.

      There are also awful accountants as well. I don’t take the fact that people have been hurt by other accountants before and therefore they are very suspicious about me from the start get in my way.

      It’s the same as “You can’t trust a lawyer!” or “Doctors are all quacks!” kind of things that you hear frequently out in the open. It rolls off your back.

      There is also a culture out there that’s “workers vs management”, I have had to retrain my parents both out of that mindset since I’m now able to explain management decisions to them and they aren’t just assuming it’s because management likes to make workers miserable and therefore changes things, makes new rules, enforces rules etc.

      It exists the same reason why stereotypes, bigotry and prejudices exists. The fear of the unknown, the unfamiliar making you question intentions, and the personal experiences of each person who holds those views.

    4. Poppy*

      Beyond that – most people interact with HR when they’re either doing something labor intensive or with a negative connotation. Event for a new job you’re excited about filling out employment paperwork is slow and annoying. And if your interactions with HR beyond that are paperwork, forms and bureaucracy with the occasional performance question thrown in its easy to see why people write them off.
      They shouldn’t but I can see how it happens

    5. HR Disney Princess*

      As an HR person, I have seen some pretty bad departments where HR wasn’t functioning at the level they should. The other side is that some people assume all we do is hire, fire, and plan parties. And while I do those things, I do so much more. I bust my butt to make sure the employees feel engaged with me and management. Just like any job, some people just don’t care or take pride in their work, but with HR, its noticeable when they don’t.

    6. Policy Wonk*

      In my experience, you get what you give. Many people where I work complain about the HR Department. When I need something from HR, I approach them as equals, explain my goals, work with them on how to get there. (And occasionally stop by with cookies after they’ve helped solve a knotty problem.) Some of my co-workers do nothing but complain about HR, including in meetings with them. The HR staff will still do their jobs (they are professionals, after all) but they won’t go out of their way to point out that there is an easier and more efficient way to do things, or offer alternatives to the complainer’s proposed course of action. And often HR has to give you an answer you don’t want to hear. It can’t be that your boss didn’t put you in for a raise, or denied your promotion. It’s that HR screwed up. Thus the cycle of complaints continues.

    7. Mockingjay*

      I think some of the problem is due to the wide range of roles HR is expected to be. HR handles EEOC compliance, Hiring, PIPs, Firing, layoffs, unemployment claims, insurance, benefits, harassment issues, employee disputes, and probably a ton of other stuff that I have no idea about, but which keeps the company ticking over.

      Given all those different responsibilities, if there are one or two complaints per role, it probably snowballs in people’s minds. Inaccurate and unfair, I agree. Lack of training is my usual suspect. I’ve worked for many companies whose mantra is, “we don’t train people; we hire people who are already trained” (even when they aren’t). I have a coworker from ExToxic Job (very small failing business) who was thrust into an HR role (she was hired as the office admin). She found online courses and insisted on taking them so she could have at least rudimentary knowledge.

      I am grateful for all that HR does.

    8. Breast Solidarity*

      You assume most of us work with HR professionals.

      My organization has over 1,000 employees, and we do not have a single HR professional in HR. And the head of HR is so dysfunctional that the turnover is terrible, so everyone in HR is new at their job (again, with no professional training, all transfers from other departments).

      Currently I am fighting to get FMLA for my cancer treatments, but they keep sending the paperwork back as incorrect, because they insist that the answers to all the questions be identical (how does that make sense?) and they seem to think that I should be able to anticipate the exact dates I will be out over the next year. Chemo is kicking my butt and I don’t know how I will feel tomorrow, much less months from now, but they keep making my oncologist re-do the paperwork and meanwhile I am just stuck and have no recourse.

      And that is far from the worst our HR does.

    9. Baru Cormorant*

      I think it’s the same kind of complaining students will do about teachers, kids do about parents, citizens do about police and government, workers do about management, etc. It makes sense to me that people will be irked when they deal with authorities and don’t get the result they want, especially because many of the interactions are about important and stressful things. And at the end of the day, the authorities are made up of humans susceptible to the same weaknesses as anyone else.

      And finally, most people will be able to share at least one positive, successful interaction with HR (or another “authority”) but this is a site about solving problems, and due to selection bias we’re going to hear more about companies with incompetent people (in HR, management, and the general workforce). If they were competent, the OP wouldn’t need to ask Alison for help!

  84. Old Millenial*

    Inspired by yesterday’s social media post – what experiences have you had with your company policing your social media?

    My experiences include: a coworker’s AAM handle was revealed by another coworker who stalked their posts until they found something complain worthy to give to the boss. The AAM reader was disciplined and told not to post here anymore. The coworker pit stired by sharing the post with the coworkers she thought they were about and was not disciplined.

    Another coworker had a FB post about work, “man my work sometimes!!!! These stupid policies drive us up a wall! No wonder everyone is quitting.” Screenshotted and turned in. They were fired. I know there were other complaints about their work though so this appears to be the straw that broke the camel’s back.

    I know that out marketing manager was outed as gay and ultimately left. His Facebook groups and events were part of what outed him.

    With all these, I am pretty firmly on team MYO business. No need to be a justice warrior and inject yourself in someone else’s life unless they are literally threatening or harrasing you directly.

    1. De Minimis*

      I generally think that, though we had a scammer employee at my previous job who would have been discovered a lot earlier had we just checked her social media.

    2. annakarina1*

      I’ve asked permission to post about something exciting at work, and have been told not to post it until it becomes more public (like in a press release), so basically nothing while it’s still in the works or still in development/negotiation. Besides that, obviously nothing bigoted or that makes the company look bad for hiring me.

      1. Rebecca*

        Me too – I try to make things as anonymous as possible just for that reason, but sometimes things are pretty obvious.

    4. Space Cadet*

      How awful that some people fight for justice. If you aren’t one of the downtrodden and oppressed, then just mind your own business. We live in a Just World, after all, you know!

      1. Old Millenial*

        Well with yesterday’s example, it wasn’t clear that the person did not self identify as “white trash”.

        But that’s not my question anyway. I asked what people’s job experiences have been. We think this Social Media job reporting is helpful, but what experiences have we had.

        Mine are mostly negative with the downtrodden getting targeted.

    5. LilacLily*

      I generally don’t talk about work AT ALL on my social medias. Sometimes I’ll complain if I get stuck on traffic or if it’s raining and I have to get home soaked, and very rarely I whine about how early I wake up, but nothing more than that. None of my coworkers follow me but they can easily find my Twitter if they google me, so I’m always wary not only of my current employer seeing me complain but of future employers seeing these posts and worrying I might badmouth them as well.

      All of my work complaints are written to AAM, talked about in private chats with my friends, or ranted in phone calls to my mom and sister :P

  85. Newbie*

    I am starting a new job on Monday! I finished my PhD and I’m moving out of academia, and this is my first real-world, non-academic job that isn’t an internship or temporary thing. The interview process went so well and the team and positions both seem like such a great fit, but…I am getting so nervous as my start date approaches!! I’m sort of terrified that they’ll find out I have no idea what I’m doing as soon as I start bumbling my way through my first day. Any first day tips out there? Also tips on conquering new-job jitters with a heaping serving of imposter syndrome??

    1. irene adler*

      Listen more; talk less. Nerves might make you want to be a chatterbox. Try to rein this in a bit. Not okay to be completely silent either. Keep open to whatever information folks will impart to you. Take notes.

      Ask questions- folks like it when this happens. It shows interest. It scares folks when absolutely no questions are asked. You won’t know how the lunchroom refrigerator rules work, or who gets to park in the prime parking spots. So ask. There are procedures (formal and informal) they follow that they need to impart to you. So you’ll be expected to ask.

      Do your best to remember names.

      1. Newbie*

        Thank you!! I do have a tendency to chatter when nervous so will definitely take that to heart!

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Do be careful on the types of questions you ask though! The stuff that irene adler mentions is very important and those questions are obviously good, plus anything about processes and typical work expectations that is necessary to do the job.

        But as a fellow PhD in non-academia, once I started to get involved in some projects I had to watch out for my tendency to get very academic about things and approach stuff as if it were all heavy research. There are some good project questions to ask, like generally about the background of a project, previous work that might be relevant, or people to serve as subject matter experts. And there are less good questions that aren’t seen as value-added by most people, like digging into very fine details, going off on tangent topics because they’re interesting but not directly relevant to the work objectives*, or anything that starts sounding like “But why” lines of question.

        * this is the one I had the most issues with at the beginning. It’s the research equivalent to “if you like this, you might also like these 15 other topics!” Keep an ideas book if you like, though, it may come in handy some day.

    2. LilacLily*

      Honestly, you could be super experienced and you’d still not have any idea what you’re doing the first few days in a new job. Every company has different policies, different ways of doing things, different approaches, and so you’ll always need to learn from the ground up at new jobs. And that’s expected! So just be ready to write down what people tell you, don’t worry if you have to ask several questions to your coworkers – I always say it’s better to be 100% sure than just pretty sure – and remember that you’ll have the job functions in the bag only after a few months in the job.

      You’ll do great! Congrats on the job!!!

  86. Tomato Frog*

    Any managers out there have advice or experience with soliciting constructive feedback from your direct reports? Or encouraging and normalizing feedback on an ongoing basis?

    I’m a new manager (~10 months in the job) and I think I have a good relationship with my direct reports. But I’m not sure how to frame a request for feedback. I don’t want anyone to feel put on the spot. If anyone has any suggestion for phrasing or strategies they use, I would appreciate it!

    1. Kathenus*

      First of all, good on you for starting out your management career wanting to get this type of feedback. There are different ways that can sometimes work, but honestly it can be difficult. One key component, which will take time, is to very intentionally create a climate with your direct reports of being open, transparent, and taking any feedback you do get seriously and sincerely.

      Now a few more specific ideas that might help: 1) if your institution does 360 evaluations by an outside vendor (helping to show those participating that their input is anonymous), take advantage of these, 2) I’ve had success with asking something specific versus something general – for example, instead of asking your team for honest feedback of how you can improve, put out a jar and ask that everyone put in one or two suggestions anonymously of something that they would like you to keep doing or do more of (so positive feedback) and one or two suggestions of things they would like to see you start doing/stop doing/doing less of (constructive feedback). This gives them the chance to be anonymous, but you’re asking for something somewhat specific in number (one or two) and content (basically it’s a ‘stop/start/continue’ exercise). Sometimes this small amount of structure makes it easier for people to participate versus an open ended request for feedback.

      And when you do get feedback, it can be helpful to not respond in the moment beyond – ‘thank you for this, let me think it over and get back to you’. I’ve had a habit in the past of trying to either explain why I did what I did (which comes across as defensive) or jumping right to a possible solution without really letting it sink in. A key with this is to definitely follow up – whether with an individual if the feedback was direct, or with the team for anonymous contributions – something like ‘thank you for the feedback about improving communication about goals/timelines/schedules/whatever’. After thinking about it, I’m going to try doing xx or yy to help address this, and I will reach out again and encourage follow up feedback on whether or not you see progress in this area’. Even if the feedback is about something that you don’t think you need to change, follow up is important. ‘I’ve heard that you’d like to be more involved in decision-making in xx area. After thinking about this and reviewing company policies, this is an area that we have set policies in and it’s not realistic to change our current structure due to xx, so I wanted to be honest with you that this isn’t something that is going to change right now’.

      I look forward to others’ responses as well as this is always a challenging area and I hope to find new ideas to steal as well!

      1. Tomato Frog*

        Thank you, this is good stuff! Unfortunately I don’t manage enough people that anyone can feel anonymous, but I can put some of the principles you mention into effect.

    2. Earthwalker*

      “What can I do to help you do your job better?” Seems like a better question than asking for “feedback.” Many employers misuse employee feedback so badly that people may be wary of that request.

  87. Trinity Beeper*

    When I first took my promotion, my boss (Candyce) said that there might be occasional weekend work. When I pushed for detail, she said for example, if there was an emergency, or if someone else was blocked and needed info from me to keep going, then I’d be expected to help. I was fine with that.

    Flash forward and Candyce clearly wants me to be working more than that. She’s actually told another report of hers that she is trying to pressure me into working more on the weekends. I could already tell because she sends me all sorts of requests over the weekend, asking me to pull together some data by Sunday so she can look at it. It’s never important, and when I send things on Sunday she never actually looks at it until the work week. I read them all, and if any are actually urgent, I’ll respond.

    I don’t want to do more than what is necessary on the weekends. I value my time outside of work. I’ve been trying to set a boundary by only actually responding to what’s important to get done by Monday, but it makes me uncomfortable knowing that Candyce has an agenda.

    Any thoughts about how to proceed?

    1. TechWorker*

      Candyce is being unreasonable, and even more so if there’s no actual urgency around the work she’s requesting AND she’s not even made the request explicit.

      I think you have two options:
      1) choose to ignore – at least until raised directly. Focus on meeting actual deadlines and check that not doing things on the weekends is not actually blocking anyone.
      2) Raise it with Candyce directly. ‘I get the sense that you want me to be more available for work over weekends – I’ve always said I’m happy to do urgent tasks but some of the requests have seemed to not fall into that category. Do you have any concerns about my productivity?’

      Tbh it sounds like she’s more likely a control freak but who knows maybe there is some process going wrong, or -*shes* being asked to get data by a certain point and it’s that request that’s unreasonable (probably her job to push back) or she hasn’t passed on the request in a timely manner (obviously not your fault). If it was that then maybe there could be a workaround – like arranging to get cc-ed on the requests so you have time to get stuff on Friday before leaving without relying on candyce as middle man.

    2. valentine*

      Stop working weekends unless there’s an emergency. Don’t read the stuff. Don’t access work email; block work calls. Since this is a change, you might start by answering late and saying you’ve committed your weekend time but will circle back Monday.

      If you asked her directly and she admitted she wants you to work weekends or x more hours per week, how would you respond? Would her motive matter to you? Is she a workaholic? It’s really weird that she just wants to command your time, as though she just enjoys the rush of power.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      Can you ask Candyce’s boss, her peers and/or HR about working on weekends? What’s the culture there? If this is just Candyce, you might start documenting her unreasonable working demands. Otherwise, you’ll have to decide if you want to keep working there, if the whole workplace is like that.
      That she is pressuring you without explicitly telling you she wants you work on weekends reflects poorly on her. It might also indicate that upper management would not support her demands. If you have a verbal discussion with her about this, put what was said in writing and email it to her as a confirmation that you’re understanding her correctly.
      Sending hopeful thoughts.

  88. Another JD*

    Food help needed! I’m an attorney in a 6-person office and we frequently skip lunch due to work. I’m sort of in charge of snacks, since I have a Costco membership and don’t mind picking up food since then I get to choose stuff I like. We end up eating a lot of Kind bars, but what else would keep for a substitute meal? We have a microwave and a large fridge and freezer, but limited cabinet space. Usual snacks are pre-made popcorn, cookies, nuts, granola/Kind bars, fruit snacks, and chocolate.

    1. Third or Nothing!*

      Costco has a lot of great frozen options! I, for one, would be ecstatic if my office started stocking their frozen dumplings. Mmm! We’ve got pizza rolls and breakfast burritos but I can’t eat those.

        1. Third or Nothing!*

          Ah that makes sense. I was assuming your office had a similar laid back atmosphere as mine, where people think nothing of warming up half a bag of Tostinos for lunch.

    2. Food Sherpa*

      I adore the salami/cheese/cracker small plates sold everywhere. The Costco in So Cal has a really tasty choice. They are filling, delicious and they are not messy. I can snack as I work.

    3. DAMitsDevon*

      Would people be into instant oatmeal? That’s my usual breakfast (with some fruit), since I’d rather get to work early and just eat there instead of worrying about being late. It could work for lunch or a snack too.

    4. banzo_bean*

      My costco has these little buffalo mozzarella snack packs in the cheese section- I love those.
      Jerky- always filling
      dried fruit

    5. Alianora*

      Peanut butter is a go-to for me. It’s good on crackers, bread, apples, with oatmeal, all kinds of options. Lots of protein/calories and it’s not necessary to be refrigerated.

      1. Alianora*

        Oops, I misread that you have fridge space but not cabinet space. Still, it’s not forbidden to refrigerate peanut butter either :)

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Costco has the mega sized boxes of Hot Pockets. I would go with some kind of frozen meals.

      Fridge? Get some salads [mac salad is huge around here, I prefer potato though], seasonal fruits and veggies. They have great deals on berries this time of year.

      Cheese. We love the Baby Belles cheeses that you can leave in the netting and people can just scoop a couple up.

      1. Another JD*

        All yummy, but those would go bad quickly. Except the cheese – that’s a great idea since those Babybels last forever.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Yessssssssssssssssssssssss, how did I forget the Cup o Noddle. I have a case of them in my office for days that I don’t want to really find a lunch or when I’m craving a hot and salty warm me up lunch.

        Channel your inner college kid, is my best advice here.

        2. Lora*

          I just picked up a bunch of those box soups from Trader Joes. They’re nice if you’re feeling fancy. I try to keep box soup, dried fruit, crackers and tea in my desk in case of emergency.

          Had a job at one point where multiple senior managers kept bottles of Scotch and bourbon in their desks in case of emergency…

    8. Rusty Shackelford*

      If you have plenty of freezer space, why limit yourself substitute meals? Why not just get some actual frozen meals?

    9. CatCat*

      Costco sells TastyBite Indian food in pouches. They’re shelf stable and take only a minute to nuke in the microwave. They’re my go-to when I don’t have lunch. They’re tasty and filling. I like both the Madras Lentils and the Veggie Tikka Masala.

    10. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Is fresh produce possible? Things with a long shelf life that are pretty cheap and people can consume without cutting them. Apples, those little EZ peel oranges, mini carrots, cherry tomatoes, things like that?

        1. Gumby*

          As long as you are doing baby carrots, they also have 20-packs of individual sized hummus cups (2.4 oz each). I’ve been popping those in my lunch for a few weeks.

    12. Ann Perkins*

      Costco has vegetable yakisoba noodle packs (frozen) that are delicious! Also for snacks you could do things like yogurt or cheese sticks.

      1. Another JD*

        I tried the veggie yakisoba and it was delicious, but had so much sodium I couldn’t get my rings off from the swelling.

    13. Coverage Associate*

      Beef and turkey jerky. Smoothies and other things you drink that have milk or yogurt in them, so there’s protein.

      Fancier cup of soup type things.

        1. Coverage Associate*

          I like it, but I have the palate of a 9 year old. For me, the thing is snacks that aren’t pure carbs. Jerky, like peanut butter, is shelf stable protein.

          Also nuts.

    14. MMB*

      You could try the little snack packs that come with crackers and either tuna or chicken salad. They’re actually pretty good and they can be put in a cupboard or refrigerated.

    15. Bibliovore*

      For my staff I get those individual cheese/nut packs, individual hummus, individual guacamole. nut and chocolate packs.

  89. Manon*

    How early is too early to apply for jobs? I’m in my last year of college and gearing up to job search. I’ve come across positions I’m interested in and qualified for (primarily in nonprofit administration) and I’ve learned that the application/interview process can take months so I want to get an early start, but I don’t graduate until May. When is a reasonable time to start applying with the goal of having a job upon graduation?

    1. Trinity Beeper*

      I found that I had to wait until January to start applying for jobs – otherwise, employers assumed I was graduating in December. This was while I was applying to entry-level marketing positions at nonprofits. It may be slightly different for administration, though! I think this varies a lot by field.

    3. wingmaster*

      When I was in my senior year, with a graduation in May, I started job searching around end of January/beginning of February. I was able to get three offers around end of March. The companies knew I was still finishing up school but was open to starting me off part-time, since I had free days in the week. So I actually started my first grown-up job before graduating!

      I think if I had the chance to re-do my job searching in college… I would’ve given myself a small break after graduation, before diving into the workforce.

    4. Just Elle*

      There was a thread on this a few weeks back – give it a read. Its highly industry specific. In engineering, there are many jobs set aside for grads that are all filled by November, so you’d already be late. In other industries, companies interview over winter or spring break. And in others, not until the month before you start.

      I don’t really think theres harm in applying now for the type of job you’re describing, but I would make it clear across the top of your resume. I did this by putting a sentence “____ Engineer graduating May ___” across the top of my resume, under my name, kind of where an objective/mission statement would go.

  90. Third or Nothing!*

    I’d just like to vent a bit. My company provides free lunch for our office (about 10 people) once a month to celebrate birthdays and work anniversaries. Yay! It’s so nice….for everyone else. I rarely get to participate because I can’t eat dairy or egg without becoming violently ill. Have I asked for food I can eat? Yes. Yes I have. But the women in charge of ordering food have a mindset that “you get what you get and you don’t get upset” and “you shouldn’t complain about free food!” *sigh*

    Guys. It’s not free food for me if I can’t eat it.

    1. DataGirl*

      I can really sympathize. We have free food events about once a month but I go into them knowing I probably won’t be able to eat anything due to allergies. We just had a picnic this week and the only thing I could eat was watermelon. They didn’t even have a salad! The menu was burgers, watermelon, chips, ice cream. Not even a vegetarian option. What kills me is I work in healthcare so you would think they would be more health conscious and account for diverse diets but nope.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        Really makes you feel like The Other doesn’t it? Let’s form our own club. We’ll call it Nope, Can’t Eat That Either.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        We have a new VP who has been pretty good about making sure I get something I can eat. He doesn’t always know when we’re doing the lunches, though. The women who order just kind of do it whenever and send out an email informing the office that they’re ordering lunch from X place tomorrow.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Is this VP *their* boss? If so, ask him to speak to them directly. If not, ask him to speak to their boss about making sure they order something you can eat.

          1. valentine*

            The women who order just kind of do it whenever and send out an email informing the office that they’re ordering lunch from X place tomorrow.
            Forward that to the VP. If you think it’s not enough notice, maybe they can task someone with keeping up on this for you or giving you a gift card so you can order for yourself. Is there someone can order these fiends to do it the first Monday of each month or what have you, to make it easier for you?

            1. Third or Nothing!*

              He also gets the emails since he’s in our office. And he happens to sit all of 10 feet from us. Small office is small. Still doesn’t mean he hears things. We do a lot of communicating by IM so people aren’t yelling across the room.

              He’s been asking me about whether I could eat food at the catered lunches, but so far nothing has really changed.

          2. Third or Nothing!*

            Yes, he is, but more of a grandboss. He’s only been here a couple of months. When he knows a meal is coming up, he makes sure there is something for me to eat. His daughter also had food intolerances so he understands my struggles. It’s nice to finally feel heard, although I wish he’d take food ordering authority from the clique and move it elsewhere.

    3. MaxiesMommy*

      Ask them in front of EVERYONE next time, while you sit there with an empty plate. The “you said it’s free and I shouldn’t complain, but it’s not free food if I can’t eat it” line is good. Point out that sometimes it’s just a matter of asking the restaurant what else they have that would work. Ask if people like Japanese food every once in a while, or barbecue. When the biddies see that you have a lot of support, they will back down—or (brightly) “I can place the orders FOR you, I don’t mind!”

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        Man I wish people liked Asian food here. Most are very meat-and-potatoes types. Regular food rotation includes Chick-Fil-A (THE BEST!), a Southern style fried chicken place where everything is coated in butter, On the Border, Chipotle, pizza, Olive Garden, and Jason’s Deli.

        And they’ve said it’s too much trouble to get a side plate for me. [insert eye roll gif here] I have talked to my coworkers who aren’t part of the clique. They all sympathize.

    4. Polaris*

      You have my sympathies and commiseration – I have a serious gluten intolerance myself. I have had success getting accommodations at company outings where the food is made by someone else (i.e. I was able to get gluten free pizza at our bar outing without having to pay for it myself, because all of the appetizers included in the event package had gluten). But for lunch provided during meetings, or the summer hot-dogs-and-burgers event, or the weekly free-bagel-breakfast, there isn’t much I can do.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        I replied to an above comment that we should all form a club and call it Nope Can’t Eat That Either.

      2. DataGirl*

        It’s the gluten that gets me more than my other dozen allergies. We have a deli in our building that they advertise as having ‘healthy options’. There is not one single thing on the menu that doesn’t have gluten.

      3. Gatomon*

        Same here, I’m at the point where I just pack my own food and eat it, and let everyone else feel awkward about excluding me. I recently had to go to an all-day training where we were provided lunch (pizza), but what it was was not announced ahead of time, nor was there an ask for any food issues. There was no opportunity to leave since we were told to carpool and the nearby options were out for me – I’d rather sack lunch then get sick at a training (been there, done that). I know that coming up with a meal that accounts for all possible food issues is impossible, but there is space to do better.

        I figure people will either learn to be more cognizant after watching me eat my sad bagged lunch, or they are a lost cause anyway.

    5. R2D2*

      That’s so frustrating! Can you mention it to someone higher up? Or maybe you can purchase your own lunch and receive an expense reimbursement for it.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        Actually the AAM website gave me the courage to speak up to our new VP! He’s been asking me if I was able to eat the catered lunches for about 2 months now. There still hasn’t been any change with the food orders, though, because the women in charge just decide when to order and from where and send out an email saying “we’re catering lunch from A to celebrate B’s birthday and C’s work anniversary tomorrow.” New VP can’t get me something I can eat if he doesn’t know when the lunch is.

    6. Remember Neopets?*

      I have food in tolerances that aren’t easy to categorize (galacto-oligosaccharides being one) so I’ve been avoiding most of our organizations food related get togethers. Luckily, they’re more of a pot-luck meal, but it’s hard when I have to look at every dish, determine ingredients, and run through my mental list of problem foods. I end up only eating the thing that I brought or not eating anything at all.

      Is there anyway you could talk to your boss about this? Maybe purchase your own meal and be reimbursed?

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        Asking for a reimbursed lunch isn’t a bad idea. Lord knows I’ve spent enough on work trips trying to get something I can eat for breakfast without…uh…issues the next day.

    7. Coverage Associate*

      In my office, it has to be more than 10 before support staff stop doing individual orders. Otherwise, a menu is circulated ahead of time, and we get to choose our particular sandwich, salad, etc. The restaurant puts our names on each.

      Can you find out if the places you order from offer this service and explain it’s just a reasonable amount of a little extra work to do individual orders?

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        I really, really wish that were the solution. I have been explicitly told that it’s too hard to order special meals just for me. I don’t have any issues ordering enchiladas without cheese when I eat out with my husband…

    8. Buffy*

      Wow! I really feel for you. I personally don’t have any food issues but I work with one person who has several severe food allergies and a number who are vegan/vegetarian. No matter what the size of the group is that is being fed, whoever is ordering the food makes sure that there are plenty of acceptable choices to accommodate everyone. When we are going out to a restaurant, we vet the menus of the places to make sure that everyone can eat something there. It’s not that hard to do. The woman in charge of ordering the food is just being lazy and honestly, a bit mean.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        Oh, bless the people in charge of vetting restaurant menus ahead of time!!! That’s something I rarely encounter and it’s so refreshing when someone cares enough to try.

  91. The Ginger Ginger*

    It’s a layoff day here, as we’re transitioning under a new company. I hate days like this. Waiting to see how it goes for you while seeing people you’ve liked and respected walk out the door. :(

    2. stitchinthyme*

      Ugh, that sucks. My husband’s company just had a layoff too; he wasn’t affected, but it’s still a morale killer, and he’s decided to start looking for a new job.

  92. Overeducated*

    I’m a little worried about how the next couple months before my maternity leave are going to go, and how to make sure it doesn’t hold me back after I return. For one thing, I still don’t have my leave schedule approved with my next-level boss, my temporary boss is just going to provide my request at her hand-off meeting on her last day today. For another, a couple things going on have made are making me a little concerned about making sure I don’t get cut out of decision-making on grounds that “you’re leaving soon anyway,” as a coworker has said. I mean, the decisions we make at the start of the fiscal year are going to have implications well beyond the 3 months I’d like to be out, and a lot of that time will be around the holidays when things are least busy anyway! And the permanent boss will be coming on while I’m on leave, so I’m worried my absence will lead to a long term perception that I don’t know or do as much as my peer. How do you successfully navigate this?

    On a happier note, 2 hour early dismissal today….

    1. Giant voice says take cover*

      My coworker left on maternity leave, on June 13 and returns September 16th. We prepared hard. She’s in events and she clearly laid out all the tasks to host the final event of summer. We talked via text with questions and support. I kept her in the loop because *our newish boss* (development director) treated her as a non-employee as after 6 weeks my coworker was on unpaid leave (hello.. she’s still an employee!)

      Clearly let your coworkers know that you want to be part of the conversations, want to be on emails and want to be part of the office even though you’re not there. Make sure you reach out on a regular basis to ask for updates (you will have to take the lead as out of sight out of mind creeps in no matter how much you tell them to keep you informed). My experience has been, they will forget so you have to own your leave and maintain relevancy. With that, you will have to accept that decisions will be made that you won’t agree with. That will happen no matter how much you keep in touch. I made a big decision re: this event that saved us $5800 but probably hurt some relationships (whole gift card debacle) and the events manager probably wouldn’t have done it (but it was a non-profit fiscal issue and affects future events.)

      The challenge we’ll have is that our newish boss, who has now navigated one of these events, seems to think they’re easier than our events manager lets on (and our events manager is good at her job). Our boss also contracted out a major fundraising event, in two months, because she didn’t know if my coworker was coming back (their lack of communication has exacerbated issues they had before going on maternity leave).

      Prepare. Prepare. Prepare.

      1. Reba*

        Fwiw, contacting an employee who is on FMLA leave too much can be illegal. Companies may have similar policies themselves for other types of leave, short term disability, etc. So that may explain the “non-employee” treatment you saw.

        1. Giant voice says take cover*

          We’re not eligible for FMLA due to organization size (5 staff).

          But what we should have discussed, regardless that we’re not FMLA eligible, is clear and actionable expectations and boundaries. The employee, their co-workers, and their boss need to clearly understand what the absent employee wants and the employer and co-workers need understand that those expectations and boundaries may change if the FMLA or leave of absence situation changes. Documentation is also helpful.

          However the employee is still considered an employee.

          “a few de minimis, work-related communications with the employee to “pass on institutional knowledge or documents”, or as a “professional courtesy”, may be permissible. See Massey-Diaz v. University of Iowa Community Medical Services, Inc. (2016). Any more than that, and the employer may be facing an FMLA interference lawsuit.

          Smith-Schrenk v. Genon Energy Services, L.L.C. (2015), “there is no right in the FMLA to be ‘left alone’ or be completely relieved from responding to an employer’s discrete inquiries.” However, this statement has to be balanced against “On the other hand, asking or requiring an employee to work while on leave can cross the line into interference.”

          Unfortunately, there is no bright-line test for what is permissible vs. impermissible contact, but court cases give a catalog of good examples of permissible contact: occasional phone calls inquiring about files; a modest “unburdensome” request for materials; or an inquiry to close out a completed assignment. In contrast, it may be impermissible to require an employee to substantially update files, or to complete tasks the employee should have completed prior to the leave.

      2. Overeducated*

        I get and accept that decisions will be made when I’m not there, my worry is about making sure I don’t have a reduced role in the decisions we make while I AM here. I’m here two more months before I’m gone for three! I don’t like being treated like I’m out the door already when I still have 2/3 of the time I’ll be gone left to work! I guess I just have to push back against comments like that.

        My org has FMLA and is VERY rule oriented, so I’m going to prep as much as I can, but can’t check in frequently as a strategy. I think I have to leave behind my work equipment and can’t even check my work email without it.

    2. Fikly*

      There are people who specialize in helping new mothers with this transition! They are called back to work coaches. They help with before maternity leave, during and after. I work with some and they are pretty awesome!

  93. bye forever!*

    Today is my last. day. at a job I’ve held for a few years, and over that time I’ve watched my the things on my plate pile higher and higher, and I’m leaving that plate behind with no one to take it over. I made a manual of critical procedures, and I’m cleaning up as much as I can, but I still have so much anxiety about it! Any tips for getting through?

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      This was me last November. I did everything I could to make sure my responsibilities are taken care of. But, at the end of the day, it’s up to management to make sure the role is covered. You can’t force them to. So just focus on doing the best you can with the rest of the day. They’ll either figure it Tuesday morning…or they won’t. Either way – not your circus, not your monkeys.

    2. !*

      Oh, boy, I too have the same type of position that if I ever leave (which I will eventually) no one would be able to take on even if I left manuals (which I would not, so you are far better than me!) because I literally had to figure things out myself! I put the blame squarely on management. If they are too lazy to leave contingency planning up to the person leaving, they get what they deserve!

      1. WalkedInMyShoes*

        Agreed. Going to happen to me this Fri., Sept. 6th. I was pushed out and my big teapot boss has no clue. He keeps making mistakes. How he got the job with no qualifications is through a board member. Ugh! I feel for you. Like the other poster said, “not your circus, not your monkeys”.

  94. Ann Perkins*

    Titling question. My company renamed my job and I took on a different title even though the job itself didn’t change at all. When listing it on my resume, can I put the new title for the entirety of my time in this role or do I need to separate it out?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think I’d list them both, like:

      Assistant Llama Groomer (August 2019 – Present)
      Assistant Llama Caretaker (June 2015 – August 2019)
      – details
      – details
      – details

    2. CAA*

      If all they’ve done is rename your existing job, and the new title is something meaningful (i.e. it’s not “ninja rockstar team member”) then you should use the new title for the entire duration. Otherwise it’s confusing to interviewers who may think you got promoted and spend time asking you about the differences between the two roles. Also, when a future employer calls your current company to verify your employment and they ask what was your role, your current company is going to give the final title you had, not the original one.

    3. Combinatorialist*

      I think you can just use the new title. Titles on resumes are mostly what a reference checker would say — so if you have references just from the old title, then maybe you need to use both. But listing both makes it look like an actual change in position

      1. The New Wanderer*

        That’s what I’d do, especially if they’re phasing out the old title. I was hired in under one title that was eliminated a few years into the job in favor of a more generic but commonly used title. I only list the current title because the company may or may not even recognize the old title anymore.

  95. Nicki Name*

    I’ve been seeing a new recruiter tactic in my current job search, and I’m wondering if it was always there and I just didn’t notice it before…

    There is the kind of technical recruiter who finds your resume, looks to see if there’s something they’re working on local to you that you might be a good fit for, calls you to discuss it, etc. And then there is the kind that carpet-bombs every email address they’ve scraped from Dice in the last couple years with messages about any job on their list that’s in the same country, even if it is a very big country.

    I’m seeing emails from the second kind now with subject lines like “Interviewing Thursday! (title/location of job)”. Is this an invitation to a cattle-call sort of interview, which in the past hasn’t been common in the technical world? Or is it just a trick to make it look like you urgently need to contact them? I haven’t followed any of them up myself, so I’m wondering if anyone else has run across this…

    1. CAA*

      It’s not really a trick, but they are trying to shortcut their work. They want you and other candidates to call them so they can limit their screening to people who have already expressed some interest rather than going out and finding candidates themselves. In order to find enough candidates with the shortcut method, they have to bother a thousand people with a spammy email instead of screening resumes first and calling twenty people on the phone.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Could you ask HR how the records will show your time there? Only if they’re reasonable and recognize that people leave eventually.

  96. Mythea*

    I am a manager at my company and was put on a PIP. Has anyone ever had this happen and come back from it?

    1. Mythea*

      The long story – My boss needed to remind me to be a little more on the ball and making sure I wasn’t dropping anything before he went on a 2 week vacation. While he was gone my Grandmother (90yo) came to town so (as I told him I was going to do) I did a lot of in and out. Apparently my vacation tracking and finance weren’t aligned and I went WAY over hours (gah!) over my available vacation. During that same time frame forgot to remind another manager that they were scheduled to present to my committee – and they had forgotten and were super embarrassed about the situation. When the boss returned I made sure to talk and be very upfront about how it wasn’t going to happen again. He took a few days and decided he was going to put me on a PIP about it. I just feel so incredibly disheartened and am trying to convince myself that this won’t permanently stain his opinion of me. Anyone got cheerful thoughts or stories for me?

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This sounds like something you can get through and come out the other side just fine! I’m not sure his thought process behind it, perhaps it’s just so that there’s a record of the issues at hand and to put you on notice that it’s a big deal to him/the company that this doesn’t happen again.

        Even though I’m a little bit of a “wait, wut, “remind” the other manager”, why is that your job? Didn’t they get told at least once and presumably put it on their to-do list and calendar? That seems a bit over the top to fall on your shoulders but at the same time, as someone organizing the committee, yeah I can see why you’d want to remind them but it’s still their responsibility in the end. But sounds like you dropped the ball on a courtesy thing in that way.

        It sounds like a one off, bumpy patch that lead to somewhat of a harsher punishment than fit the crime. But it could just be protocol at the same time, which doesn’t mean you’re in danger it’s just something like “I can’t let this go because it is a big issue and it needs to be addressed so yeah, we go with the PIP.”

        Also forever annoyed that so many places lack synced up ways to watch your vacation time. All the people here have to do is 1. Ask me. or 2. punch the right keys on the time clock system and they see what their available hours are at any given time. They’re always up to date.

      2. PollyQ*

        No suggestions, but FWIW, I think it’s total BS that you’ve been put on a PIP for those reasons, esp. your colleague’s own forgetfulness. You’re not his mom, fer cryin out loud!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      How do you feel about the PIP? Do you agree with it on some level? Do you think that you can complete their goals and come up to their standards?

      PIP’s aren’t always a nail in the coffin, a lot of it will depend on why they put it into place and the problems at hand.

      If you don’t think they’re being unreasonable and you can rise to the occasion then it’s a lot less gloomy than it may feel right now. If you simply are realizing that your best and their requirements isn’t going to shake out, then it’s usually time to part ways and will be better for you in the end after you get over this rough patch and stress of the entire situation.

      So really it drastically depends on so many things but yeah sometimes people come out on the other side and sometimes it’s that writing on the wall =( I wish you the best and I’m sorry that you’re going through this.

  97. Handwritten Notes*

    I had an interview yesterday which I thought went well and am considering whether to write a handwritten thank you card or stick with an email, like I usually do. I’m considering handwritten because the interviewers are located only 15 minutes away but I do worry that I’ll interrupt the on-going interviews since they’re being held today as well. Any thoughts? Do handwritten make that much of a bigger impact? It’s for an entry customer-service oriented role.

    1. wingmaster*

      Do you know when the company will make a hiring decision? I would say it is fine to do a handwritten note, if the company does not plan to extend an offer soon.

      1. wingmaster*

        I think it’s also fine to drop off your cards. Are you able to just drop them off at the front desk?

        1. LadyByTheLake*

          I would definitely NOT drop off cards — that’s coming across as stalkerish. I have hired many times and no follow up, email or handwritten don’t make a difference to the hiring decision.
          Honestly, the thank you is more to preserve a potential networking relationship for the future. Maybe you weren’t the one chosen, but if you sent a thank you I’m more likely to remember you positively if I run into you later.

          1. wingmaster*

            I get it that it can come off as stalkerish. I have been told that this was fine before… You do make a great point that the thank you is more to keep that professional contact. I’ve had a couple hiring mangers connect with me months later, maybe for freelance work or something else.

    2. Kathenus*

      I’m a hiring manager and email is fine. It’s certainly been the most common in my experience, and I don’t see that it would interrupt anything because people can read their emails when it’s convenient for them, they don’t need to do so while they are interviewing others. I’ve received handwritten, and they’re fine, but I personally don’t value them any more or less than email ones.

    3. CAA*

      Do not send a handwritten note. It makes you look out of touch with modern business etiquette, which uses email for this type of communications.

      1. Handwritten Notes*

        Huh, I thought handwritten notes were still a thing? A recruiter for a large local university told me that she enjoys getting handwritten cards and I thought it was still a nice way of following up after the interview. But I understand why email would be preferred in most cases, just thought I’d ask since I live so close compared to my previous interview locations.

        1. CAA*

          I once got a handwritten thank you note after interviewing someone for a software developer position. We didn’t even have a real mailroom, so the note arrived on my desk several weeks after I’d hired someone else. Once I figured out who this person was and recalled the interview, my next thought was “why is he sending paper notes to a software company?”

          Universities may be a bit more old fashioned, or maybe it’s just your recruiter friend, but if you’re not applying for a job there, it’s better to send an email.

          Alison has actually answered this a couple of times:
          https://www.askamanager.org/2017/01/should-you-send-job-interview-thank-you-notes-through-email-or-postal-mail.html
          https://www.askamanager.org/2015/05/which-is-better-a-handwritten-thank-you-note-or-an-emailed-note.html

        2. Filosofickle*

          I know a few people who have been charmed by handwritten notes but I’ve heard of more who found it super weird. Emailing is safer.

    4. Mediamaven*

      No – do an email. I don’t think too many people care about handwritten anymore and speed is more important.

  98. Cruel Summer*

    Thoughts on leaving early on in the probation period for a new job? New company manual states that the probation period is a time for “employees to find whether they’re a good fit with our team” and this new place is at-will employment as well. So should I feel super horrible if I quit within the first few days or 1-2 weeks? I don’t mind burning bridges since this is a smaller company outside of my usual field. I’m considering quitting because the pay and commute are not worth it – I should’ve realized it earlier but I was desperate for a job at that time. But now I’m getting callbacks from other interviewers and have another offer waiting for my response…

    1. MissDisplaced*

      If you’re that early in and the job isn’t right for you, leave. Sooner is best, as they may be able to offer job to another applicant. It may or may not burn a bridge, but you get a pass on this once. If the rest of your work history is otherwise strong, no one will care and you can leave this off your resume. I did this a few years ago, and I was there a month when I got a callback and offer from a different job I’d interviewed at.

      If you’re looking for something to say, be honest: “I’m really sorry as I took this job with good intentions, but I’ve realized after these first few weeks that the [commute/job/fit/hours] just won’t work out for me. I can stay until X time if that helps you find a replacement, but I also understand if you’d want me to exit sooner.”

  99. I hate open offices*

    Week #1 of Open Office Hellmouth
    Rough adjustment for all this week. Odd that all but one department have assigned seating. Of course I would be in the department with hot desking. We have lockers, but there was no thought as to locker locations, which are across the building from where you actually sit.
    It took me about 25 minutes the other morning to find a desk with a monitor, go and get my computer from my locker, connect all the cables and startup, and then adjust the monitor settings before actually beginning work. Hooray for all that productivity!
    I’ve had a headache every day this week. I think it’s because of all the fumes from the new carpet, furniture and stuff in the new office. I mean you can SMELL it.

    Opinions heard ’round the watering hole:
    “It may look pretty, but it’s not productive.”
    “Can we say Fad.”
    “I have to sit across from my boss!”
    “God, can I just take Friday off.”

    1. Rebecca*

      That sounds awful! Get ready for “you need to get here 20 minutes early so you can hook up your computer and find a locker and … ” before work starts. Uh, No. That is work related, and you should be paid for it. If they want to make things uncomfortable for you, push back.

    2. Morning reader*

      This sounds awful, but I am most worried about the carpet fumes and the headaches. Years ago my workplace installed new carpet without venting it properly first. Several people got sick that week and the following week. I had a terrible case of bronchitis. These fumes are toxic and if you are having symptoms, it could be damaging your health. They shouldn’t have anyone working in their til the fumes clear.

  100. Food Sherpa*

    I would like some suggestions for managing remote workers, specifically accessing productivity. I have three warehouse employees in the midwest and I work at the corporate office is in Ca. I am responsible for their productivity. There is some gendering between me and the male employees in the warehouse. My biggest problem is that I don’t know how to ascertain they are accomplishing the work- I don’t have any experience in the specifics of their job and the responsibility was dropped in my lap. Any suggestions would be helpful.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      That’s a bad setup, why would they have a remote supervisor for warehouse workers?! Why don’t they have a warehouse manager/lead?! [I know this isn’t your fault, I’m just confused by why your company is doing it this way because it’s absolutely impossible to really keep up with this kind of management without being present in some form, even if it’s just a drop-in, fly-by to check in personally.]

      This means that you have to only judge if they’re working on the volume they’re putting out but that’s hard when things take longer depending on the size of the order usually.

      I need so much more insight into this and the process to be truly helpful with my extensive warehouse management experience. It’s really not something you can manage properly remotely. Leaving people there without some kind of leader is a recipe for slacking off and mismanagement.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      They must have some metrics, right? Either a certain number of orders per week or average quotas?
      I guess you start with that.

      Have you been to the warehouse? It would behoove you to spend a week or two there observing what goes on. Also, is there anyone else in management located at the warehouse that you can trust to report accurately on the work of your reports? If so, you want to enlist them.

  101. Former Mailroom Clerk*

    Not a terribly productive day. Working remotely, long weekend, my boss has already given us permission to leave early (even longer weekend!), and my state is going to be hit by Hurricane Dorian sometime between Sunday and Wednesday.

    I’ve got 2 hours left (1 of which is a meeting) … I don’t really want to start on a bigger project, and I’ve done all my routine tasks. And also spent 20 minutes looking at building codes and manufacturer specs, and have determined that my home’s windows are wind rated to 120-130 mph, and impact rated for a “Class D” impact. So that’s good, I guess.

  102. LahaBread*

    What career paths are open after working as an “admissions coordinator” for 1-2 years? I was intrigued by a job positing for an admissions coordinator for a local international schooling agency and it’s pays better than my current entry position. I’m interested in admin work and this job seems to fit my qualifications but I’m stumped as to whether it would more of a dead-end position or if I could use the experience to advance in other positions later on that isn’t director or managerial. Thank you :)

    1. EA in CA*

      People overlook Administrative type roles as either something to fill in a job gap, get your foot into the door, or a starting point for something else. I’m a career admin starting as a receptionist at a local university during my summers off from school. Since then, I’ve worked in many different departments all because of transferable skills. I’ve done project management, payroll, HR, and accounting, to name a few. I think if you are willing and eager to learn any skill that comes your way, you become more desirable and can use that knowledge base to advance your career.

      From being the receptionist, I moved into Admissions, then to Exam Coordination. When I left there, I did a stint as an accounting assistant, then became the payroll administrator. I’m now an Executive Assistant for a large private corporation. There are a lot of opportunities for you, and you can narrow down what fields you prefer to stay in, like project management or HR.

      1. LahaBread*

        That’s great to hear! Do you think it would be a good option to start off in this type of position for a few years and then move onto a bigger company? I was a temp for my local university and it seemed like the university was more open to admin people moving around and finding their niche, due to how large the university is and how many internal opportunities there are. Compared to this agency, which is much smaller with much less opportunities for advancement according to the job listing itself.

        1. EA in CA*

          Absolutely! Start building up your skill base. Figure out your strengths and continue building them up. Learn additional skills and apply them, if you can to your current role. The university I worked for prefer to hire from within (union rules) so it was easy to apply for transfers to other departments. Some admins I know became the general experts in their chose fields. One friend works as the HR Administrator, although, she doesn’t have a degree or education to for a full HR role. But she is a wealth of information on employment law, tax requirements, and company practices that she holds a very respected role on the HR team, enough to even become a Generalist if she wanted to. You’ll have transferable skills and experience to move to a larger institute if you choose to in the future.

    2. LilySparrow*

      Check out the company and the position really thoroughly. I have run across things that sound similar, that are a bait & switch. The “international schooling agency” in those cases turns out to be a fly-by-night group similar to an MLM, and the “admissions coordinator” is a commission-only salesperson.

      I mean, admissions coordinator is normally a real job. As long as it’s a real school, it should be fine.

  103. MissGirl*

    Thanks to everyone who answered my questions the last few weeks, first about guilt when interviewing but being scheduled out at current job. Second, about refusing an offer when you still want to eventually work at the company. I had a lot of good advice on working through my anxiety.

    Surprising news, I took the job. Now I’m reminding myself ambition can be good and risk is part of growing a career.

  104. 4 Months in my first job!*

    Hello! When I was first hired, I was told I’d be paid $thismuchmoney, and upon passing probation, I could get a raise. About 2 weeks away from the end of my probation, I asked to talk to my manager to see how I was doing. He admitted he wasn’t a ‘review’ kind of guy but said I was doing great and was on my way to the raise. It’s now been four months, two after I passed probation basically and I’m wondering about that raise since the initial pay I was on, well it’s not much and is really hard to save any money if I do at all. I’m hoping to be able to move out of my moms place soon and I’m not sure I’d be able to!

    Do I bring up a potential raise? Do I wait for my manager to? Do I just stew in wonder?

    1. Catsaber*

      Bring it up! Keep reminding him about it. If they promised you that (especially if it’s written out somewhere, like in an offer letter), then they need to honor that.

      This issue has come up before on AAM so search the archives for some good scripts.

      2. Just Another Manic Millie*

        It doesn’t sound like 4 Months was promised a raise, since 4 Months said “upon passing probation, I could get a raise.” Could does not equal will.

        At my first summer job, I started off with a laughably low salary and was told that I would get a raise after two weeks. The raise did not come. I mentioned it to the woman who hired me, and she acted as if she had never said anything about a raise to me and said that she would have to discuss it with the big boss. After a couple of days, I said that if I didn’t get the raise, I was walking out the door. Believe it or not, I got the raise. I say “believe it or not” because I was just a high school kid with a summer job, someone very easy to replace.

        Unless there’s something in writing, companies will lead employees on by talking about possible raises, but those raises never seem to come through on their own.

  105. Therapist in Cal.*

    Hi all,

    I’m a therapist in California and I’m looking for mental health/crisis resources, specifically psycho-education and coping skills type stuff, that might be useful in a volunteer situation in a few weeks.

    Here’s the deal: in mid-September I will be going to Tijuana for a week to volunteer with one of the immigrant rights groups at various clinics throughout TJ and also in SD. I will be the only therapist/mental health provider on the trip (everyone else is medical). Due to the shifting rules etc. in TJ and SD, I’m not sure if I will actually end up working with clients or not, but I want to be prepared if I do.

    I have done a fair amount of crisis mental health in the past, but in a different context and with the ability to refer people for ongoing services. That most likely will not be an option for any clients I see in TJ in particular. My plan is to try to provide people with some coping and grounding skills and help provide some emotional support in any way I can. Does anyone have experience with this type of work, or any suggestions on resources/where to find resources that could be useful to these asylum seekers? Note that while there are many Spanish-speaking folx, there are also people from outside Latin America (including West Africa).

    Thanks!!

    1. Coverage Associate*

      SAMHSA has a free disaster app.

      NAMI in California has resources in Spanish and Chinese. Bug Santa Clara County if your local affiliate isn’t helpful.

    2. E*

      Two orgs that come to mind are counselors without borders and MSF. Counselors without borders have some academic literature on their website about offering counseling and psychotherapy in disaster situations, which has some obvious parallels to what you’ll be doing. MSF don’t seem to have any public resources but they do have some info about their work providing mental health care in Rohingya refugee camps, which raises the question of how you help someone overcome trauma when you know their situation means they’re going to keep being traumatised for the foreseeable future – so you might manage to angle some training materials if you contact them and explain what you’re going to be doing.

  106. DataGirl*

    Any Chefs here? My teen has decided they really want to go to culinary school and become a Chef, however they are vegetarian and while they are okay with cooking meat, they are not okay with tasting it- which we figure is pretty crucial to cooking/culinary school. Further a little googling has told me that a) the pay is horrible and b) culinary school is very expensive and often not worth it. So I’m just curious if there is anyone with experience who could comment with their experiences.

    1. Me*

      Not a chef. My nephew started down that path, minus the vegetarian part, and once he was exposed to the pay, hours and cost of training….now is training to be a plumber.

      I have a, maybe not, but hopefully helpful suggestion. In addition to finding real chefs to talk to about their experience, maybe she can take a basic class or two. I know our parks and rec depart offers really cool culinary classes on knife skills for example. They’re inexpensive at about 30 bucks a pop. I know there’s cooking schools and stuff around as well. Not saying they’re like actually culinary school, but it might just help her decide if it’s a true interest.

      1. valentine*

        a) the pay is horrible and b) culinary school is very expensive and often not worth it
        The second part makes sense if there’s a viable alternate entry. Either way, let them do it, figure it out, and evaluate it on their own. Don’t contribute to a what might’ve been. Maybe everything negative mentioned here will be as worth it to them as the horrors like sleep deprivation are to doctors.

    2. mimco*

      I work in foodservice. The vast majority of chefs are poorly paid. School is expensive and unless she attends somewhere like Johnson and Wales or CIA not worth it. The hours are long. The environment is hot and the people you work with can be difficult. Ask her if she wants to work 12-15 hour days, 7 days a week and every holiday. If not, find another career.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      My friend’s husband is a chef and went to a culinary college. He is still a working chef. I dated a chef (trained in prestigious culinary school in France no less).
      Opinion: It is a HARD job! It is not glamourous. Pay/Hours suck. Do not expect to become Gordon Ramsay.

      But I get it, people still love the artistry of cooking good food and learning about food. If you LOVE it, follow it, but be realistic about what that entails.

      There are vegetarian chefs, but in order to learn about the finer points of cooking, yes you will have to work with and probably taste meat because chefs need to taste everything they cook. I don’t know the cost of culinary college, but it’s pretty expensive, plus tools: knives, aprons, shoes, etc. To rise in the trade, you do have to have education, because of sanitation, food safety, purchasing, planning and the basics of running a restaurant kitchen. That being said, I think some of this can be taken at local community colleges or votech programs.

      But lastly, has your teen actually ever worked in a restaurant?
      I would suggest that before pursuing culinary school. My friend’s husband worked in the kitchen as a line cook at Cheesecake Factory for some years before deciding to become a chef so he was no newbie to the trade.

    4. EA in CA*

      My brother went to culinary school. Was in the industry for 7 years and is now switching careers and moving up the ladder with a food distributor. The hours are long, the pay low, and you are not respected unless you become a top rated desirable chef. If you’re teen’s plan is to aim higher than being just a line chef at a restaurant (like one day opening up his own restaurant/cafe, or becoming a top rate chef with tons of accolades) then he needs to have a serious look into what the industry is like for people who do not have those types of ambitions. It’s not glamorous and a huge ways away from what you see on the Food Network. You have to work really really hard to get up there in the industry because there are tons of up and coming chefs and only so many spots for people to shine.

      My brother was always working. No social life. Owners can also treat you badly too. He had one restaurant switch his shift on him and didn’t notify him. Called when he was late for said shift and proceed to yell at him when he got in. He walked out on the spot.

    5. Former Mailroom Clerk*

      Go to the library and pick up a copy of Kitchen Confidential (Anthony Bourdain’s book). Have them read it, and then remind them that even that is probably a filtered version of how non-glamorous of a career it is.

      1. Clisby*

        The main lesson of Kitchen Confidential is that Anthony Bourdain was an out-and-out asshole. However, that could be good information.

    6. AndersonDarling*

      My husband worked in restaurants for 25 years and makes fun of the culinary school cooks all the time. Restaurants are the bottom of the pool when it comes to jobs. You have people making minimum wage, you are constantly injured at work, you work the worst possible hours, you work with coworkers with mental disorders and alcohol and drug problems. (Not to say that everyone has these issues, but if you do, a restaurants is where you can find a job.) Why pay $40K to go to school to do that? And once you go to school, you still have to start at the bottom when you get a job. And everyone will make fun of how you need an hour to cut 10 onions.
      If someone really wants to do it, then they should get a job at a restaurant and truly experience what that life is like. There is no glamour in it. If they can handle it after six months, then make a decision. And I would say it is only worth going to school if you plan on running a business.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        This being said, I respect everyone that has the ability to handle this environment just so I can get a burger and a beer. I hope things get better for restaurant workers with the increase in minimum wage.

    7. Natalie*

      Everyone I know that started in the culinary industry changed careers before age 40. It’s incredibly physically demanding work and what seems easy when you’re 19 hurts a lot more at 36. You’re also committing yourself to essentially only having relationships with other food service industry folks since you’ll be working evenings, weekends, and holidays for a long time.

      Definitely work in a restaurant for a while before deciding to commit to the field. And personally I’d lean heavily towards a school that offers a culinary arts bachelors, since that’s at least as marketable as any other random bachelor’s degree, versus an associates degree that will be useless if/when they decide to leave the industry.

    8. M. Albertine*

      Another avenue that might be worth exploring is food research. I have a friend that did this with her culinary degree, but she also had a background in scientific research, which is also a huge part of the job. (Google Food Research Development Jobs for example job descriptions.)

    9. mreasy*

      If your teen is veg and is interested in alternative/health-positive food, they could go to a health-supportive/plant-based culinary program and that would prepare them for personal chef work. There’s a lot of demand for personal chefs that have knowledge of specialized diets, esp vegan, gluten free, etc. – and the schedules and pay are a lot lower-stress for many people than working the line.

    10. No Tribble At All*

      Sibling went to CIA (for baking and pastry tho, not for culinary) for the first 2 years to get an associates, then got an associates in business from a local community college because that was most of what the second half of the degree is. Now is a professional baker :) so my advice is to only do the culinary stuff at a Famous!CulinarySchool, because you can get all the business management stuff elsewhere.

    11. AnotherAlison*

      My cousin is a chocolatier. I suppose it depends on your child’s interest, but that could be a vegetarian option. She did not go to school, but the place she works sends her to regular training. The pay is not great.

      Her ex husband is an executive chef, and he got his training at the local community college, which costs the same as the other CC programs. Another option to look into could be HS programs. My old high school now has a professional program for culinary arts. They have a restaurant one night/mo, and have one some national competitions. It’s pretty cool, and again, cheap. Of course it doesn’t exist every where, but you could have something like that and not know if your kid has been focused on a more traditional path.

    12. DataGirl*

      I appreciate the replies and they pretty much echo what my minimal research said. Right now kid is saying there is nothing else they can imagine doing/nothing else that makes them happy. They cook a lot at home and don’t realize how different doing it professionally would be. I will definitely recommend a job in a restaurant once they are old enough. There is actually a really good culinary school in our city; I don’t think they offer lay classes but I’ll look into it. As a parent, I’m hoping they move on to a different career, but right now they are at the stage where everything I say is dumb so I can’t give much advice, lol.

      1. PollyQ*

        If she’s old enough, she might think about getting a job working at a restaurant, as a waitress or busser or the like. It’ll at least give her insight into the working conditions she’d be dealing with if she chose that profession.

      2. EA in CA*

        Have them work in the industry before making any decisions. They need that first hand experience to decide for themselves since they won’t take you advice to heart.

        My brother said that while he enjoyed his culinary school days and it did end up leading him to his current position, none of his classmates are in the food industry anymore.

      3. LilacLily*

        you should show your teen this post! I know when I was in high school my dream was to go to art school, and nothing my mom said convinced me otherwise. it didn’t help that all my friends back then hard preached the yOu ShOuLd Do WhAt MaKeS yOu HaPpY spiel and I really bought into it. in the end I reluctantly realized I had no choice in the matter and ended up studying IT (free college, near our house, industry pays well and has plenty of jobs) and I don’t regret it; I ended up taking art classes a few years after I graduated, and I paid for it with my own salary!

        Looking back I now know that most if not all my friends in high school were, if not wealthy, not doing too bad for themselves, while my parents had no savings whatsoever and struggled to get food on the table most weeks, so for my friends it was easy to tell me not to worry about what I’d do with my diploma once I graduated, while my parents worried about if we could find well paying jobs that would allow us to enjoy life after we graduated. and lo and behold, they were right! I now have more than one friend with fashion degrees who are struggling really hard to find well paying jobs while so far I have managed to travel abroad at least once a year for the past six years. thanks mom and dad!

      4. A.Beth*

        Another job to look at would possibly be hospital-food making. I don’t know what the hours/pay would be, or if the “it tastes like meat, ugh,” issue would cause problems, but if you have a local hospital, it’s worth a look, maybe? (Our very local hospital had great food when I was there! They’ve got a little cafeteria for the staff/people visiting, now, and it’s got some decent stuff. I’m sure the food isn’t coming out of a replicator or catering service.)

        Local lunch-places may be a viable option in your area for shorter work-days (though probably would need to be there at like 4am or earlier to do pastries?), but pay, hours, and benefits may not be so hot.

        Go out to eat at little cafe places and ask questions about what the jobs entail!

    13. Antilles*

      Not a chef, but spent several years in various food service putting myself through school. Few thoughts:
      1.) Your teen absolutely needs to work in a restaurant for a while before even considering culinary school. Before you commit a significant amount of money and time to culinary school, they need to know what they’re getting into – low pay, limited (or zero) personal time off, having most of your evenings and weekends committed, awful customers, casual sexual harassment by customers, always having some kind of minor hand injury, being on your feet every second of your shift, etc.
      2.) What does your teen enjoy about cooking? If it’s something like “the ability to craft my own unique dishes”, then they should really think through whether they’d be happy if that wasn’t part of it…because a restaurant usually has like 90+% of the menu that doesn’t change for months if ever. Sure there’s a daily special, but most of your time is going to be making yet another Chicken Parm and Spaghetti (or whatever).
      3.) How firm is the “not okay with tasting meat”? Because in my experience, we rarely had a week where there wasn’t some angry customer telling us that we screwed up the meal and then angrily showing it to us and look at that, would you eat that? In several cases, the customer actually demanded the chef taste the meat just to verify how bad it was. I never saw a chef actually respond with “actually, I’m a vegetarian so I wouldn’t eat meat period”, but I’m fairly certain it would not have gone over well.

  107. mimco*

    Feeling a little frustrated. I am working for a contract food service company. The business we are contracted with is very poorly organized and is constantly changing how and what they want us to do. The contract company also has ongoing changes and improvements. It is unusual to have a week without new or different process, plan or goal from either the contract company or the business. The latest is that we are now being told to work at different locations, different days, and different job duties than we were initially hired to perform. Both companies say-“you are our employee and that means we decide the where, when and what of your job”. Is this the new norm in the business world?

    1. CAA*

      No, this is not the norm everywhere. However, it is the norm in the businesses you are working with right now. I would think that being sent to different locations and working different days, especially if these are last-minute schedule changes or if they require an awful commute, would be a deal breaker for a lot of people. I think you should ask yourself if you want to keep working there or if you should be searching for something else.

  108. GF*

    Hi y’all. I need some advice. I made a dumb mistake. I sorta ghosted my internship.

    I was archiving a company’s history, and for the last month, I had either work or personal (little bro started college) conflicts that interfered with my intern hours. I contacted my boss once during that time. Today, I just sent an email, apologizing, explaining (though I know that’s no excuse), and said I understand that if this no longer works, but I can start again next week. My question: is there anything else I can do?

    I guess some relevant info: I don’t get academic credit, I’m not paid. I normally go once a week. I don’t even know if I can use this on my resume because it’s not really “proper” archiving. I’m just scanning and transcribing. Again, I know I made a stupid dumb mistake. I just don’t know what to do now.

    1. Me*

      Nope. You did what you could and (hopefully) learned a lesson about communication.

      I get it, you realize you goofed and just want to make it better. But ball is in their court. Anything additional to what you’ve already said would not come across well.

      1. valentine*

        How is the work going to help you career-wise?

        I don’t see why your brother (even leaving) for college would stop you going to work, but, if you haven’t already, you can settle on what kind of contact they need when you won’t be in, but only go back if you’ll really commit and take it seriously for the remaining time.

    2. CAA*

      Oof! This is tough. If they take you back next week, have one in-person conversation with your boss where you are suitably apologetic for the flakiness. Then finish the project by doing high quality work and showing up reliably.

      You definitely could have put this on your resume if all had gone well, (though you probably wouldn’t have wanted to call yourself an archivist); but now you should try to find out whether it would help or hurt you before doing that. When the project is finished, have another conversation with your boss. Thank her for the opportunity and for taking you back on after you were off so long this summer. Then ask if she’ll be able to give you a good reference for the work you’ve done. You might find out that she was also out a lot and didn’t really notice your absence and there was no urgency anyway, so she didn’t care. Or it might be a really big deal. You don’t know, so it’s worth asking.

    3. fhqwhgads*

      Wait, this internship sounds fishy to begin with. You either need to get academic credit or be paid. Otherwise you’re a volunteer. If this is a for-profit business…you can’t be a volunteer.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Exactly. You’re not an intern if there’s no benefit to you at all. You’re a volunteer who’s just donating their time.

        You don’t have a boss to whom you owe excuses or explanations. You have a volunteer coordinator/supervisor to whom you owe courtesy and correct information so they can plan accordingly.

        If it’s a nonprofit, that’s one thing. If it’s a business this is completely illegal.

  109. Anon for This*

    I have a very complicated situation at work where I am honestly stumped. I work at a community college, and we work with students in an open space.

    One of the students who comes in is friendly and sweet, but they have Tourette’s, and one of their tics (?) is that they repeat a phrase in a loud voice. The phrase includes the n-word.

    I realize that Tourette’s is a disorder and involuntary, and this kid was obviously mortified, but we also have a diverse campus and a. I wouldn’t blame someone for being offended, even if they do realize that this is a medical disorder, and b. we cannot disclose a student’s medical issues without their permission. So if the student leaves, then another student/employee/etc. complains, we cannot explain that this person has a medical disorder. And like I said, even if we could, I understand completely if someone is still uncomfortable.

    Ideas? Suggestions? Commiseration?

    2. diner lobster*

      Wow! I am extremely interested to see folks’ responses here because that’s such a tricky combination of circumstances.

    3. CAA*

      Agree with Semaj. You need to ask someone in HR how to handle this situation. It might be that you ask the person with Tourette’s Syndrome what they’d like you to do when they are using language that offends others, but I don’t know if it’s o.k. to ask that. Talk to someone whose job it is to know the law and create policies for handling this type of thing.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yes, you need to bring this problem to the experts. If I were this student, I’d rather have people know about my disorder than have them think I’m a racist, and it’s possible they’ll be happy to let you do that, but obviously it has to be their choice. I wonder if it would be possible to work with this particular student in a more private space.

    5. Anon for This*

      ETA:
      I have spoken with my supervisor and an administrative officer in charge of student behavior about this, and their response is essentially, “We don’t think it’s a problem! If a complaint comes in, we’ll deal with it then.”

      Additionally complicating this is that one of my employees who works in the space where the student frequents is a WOC. She understands that this is a medical disorder, but it absolutely has to be uncomfortable for her to be hearing that type of slur on a regular basis at her workspace. I am going to try talking to my supervisor again and more bluntly pointing out this fact, but I am wondering if anyone has solutions that I can bring to the higher-ups that are better than their current stance of bury their heads in the sand.

      1. CheeryO*

        I’m with Rusty Shackelford – is there any sort of private area where you could meet with her? Or even an open outdoor space, weather permitting? It seems unacceptable to me to subject your employee to that language, but obviously I’m not the expert here.

        1. Anon for This*

          I did speak to the employee in question and asked her honestly if she was okay. She assured me that she’s worked with special education kids before, and she realizes that it is not voluntary. Additionally, this student does not use the phrase exclusively when my employee or other POC are around, which I guess was kind of better in so much as it could be? She’s more worried about complaints from other students or other employees.

          I’m going to bring this up again with my boss and ask about the private area idea. It’s not great, but it seems a good solution to a very awkward situation.

          1. Baru Cormorant*

            I admit that I don’t know much about Tourettes beyond “uncontrollable outbursts”. But the student doesn’t use the phrase exclusively when POC are around? So does that mean that the student can control it to a certain extent? Is that only when someone visibly POC is around?

            I would also ask the student how they would like to handle when others come up to you and ask if they are a crazy racist. They might prefer you give them the cover of “it’s not their fault.”

            But if it were my decision, I would ask the student to work in a private area where others can’t hear them. Even if they truly can’t help it, it’s not OK to subject others to hate speech (even white people, seriously no one should have to hear that). So if it were my call, I would not allow that as an accommodation.

      2. LGC*

        …I often jokingly say that people should give me the contact information for bad managers so I can yell at them, but seriously I WILL LEGITIMATELY YELL AT YOUR BOSS IF YOU WANT ME TO. I CAN BE ANGRY AND BLACK ENOUGH TO GET THEIR ATTENTION.

        I’d just file a complaint, to be honest. I hate suggesting this, but they might be looking for evidence someone is actually offended – so your coworker might have to put the complaint in to have it taken seriously. This is gross, but I’m trying to think of what would be effective.

    6. Sungold*

      Years ago I knew someone with Tourette’s who got Botox injections in the vocal cords for a similar symptom (unexpected loud yelps and curses causing coworkers to drop and break items). Their voice became a whisper and the outbursts were less noticeable and no longer disruptive. They were thrilled. I thought that was a very creative treatment.

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        Eek, well I guess if the person with Tourette’s was happy with that treatment then it’s okay. But given it’s generally considered cruel to “de-bark” dogs, this seems like a weird treatment to me!

        Is the student coming in to work, or is the student coming in to study/whatever in this open space?

        1. Anon for This*

          The student is coming in to study/work with employees in this space. We don’t want to deny this student services due to their disability, but the nature of the disability… well.

          1. Your manager is wrong*

            I really do think you need to adress this proactively. What if someone does complain, to your supervisor or the officer, but gets brushed off by them and decides to take things in their own hands? Then you very well might have a video of the student on the internet, dropping the n-word out loud, and the video goes viral. The student is the one who will be known forever as the ‘virulent racist’, and your institute will be seen as allowing open racism on the site. Not to mention, what about any other PoC who are very likely to feel unsafe because of the n-word?
            I’m transgender, and if someone was using the t-slur in my vicinity, and the administration did not step in, I would feel very unsafe and discriminated against.

  110. PhyllisB*

    Wanted to give y’all a quick update on Rosie the Riveter (aka also known as My Granddaughter the Welder) she is crushing it in her welding classes. Getting high praise from her instructor and really enjoying learning. Wish I could post a photo of her in her welding gear. This is one proud Gram.

  111. pony tailed wonder*

    Minor vent.
    I have a co-worker who is now using a hand puppet to talk to people at work. I am a grump and I don’t want to. I am just ignoring the puppet and try to talk to him normally. He’s a nice guy but . . . this is a small annoyance to me.

    1. Hamburgler*

      HAHAHAHA!!! OMG, that is hilarious! I’m crying.

      Although, I would also be annoyed if I was in your shoes and dealing with this in real life :)

    2. Havarti*

      Well, that’s… interesting. I would ignore the puppet myself. A one-time thing would be amusing but every single time? No, thank you.

    3. Anonymeece*

      I had a friend who worked at a law firm, and the owner was apparently a great lawyer in court, but would exclusively communicate to my friend via hand puppet. He finally quit when he realized one day he turned to address the puppet instead of her.

      I think in that case it was some kind of anxiety thing? But we all thought it was pretty bizarre.

    7. LilacLily*

      My suggestion to you would be to completely ignore the puppet and use the “Wow.” technique with him if he insists on talking to you using the puppet. Add in a single raised eyebrow for effect and see how he reacts.

      If he still insists on using the puppet again, then amp it up by going “WOW. Really?!” Single raised eyebrow mandatory here. A double eyebrow raise would work well too.

      If he STILL uses the puppet after all of the above I’d resort to giving him the silent treatment, the kind all teachers use with school kids when they’re being loud and they’re trying to speak; just stop, stare, and wait.

      If none of the above works you are by law allowed to strangle him. No one will blame you.

      1. Auntie Social*

        No, they find him dead in a stairwell with thr puppet stuffed down his throat. Police finding is a murder-suicide by puppet.

    8. Pony tailed wonder*

      The puppet isn’t out all the time and he really is a nice guy. So I am just trying to remember that we all have our plusses and minuses.

  112. Hamburgler*

    Salary WWYD. (I think AAM answered a similar q on here but haven’t found it in my search yet!). All values are for demonstration purposes only, I wish I was getting paid 100K ;)

    I am currently paid $75k. I am below market. A new position with more responsibilities opened up and boss said it would also be $75k. I said if they wanted anyone to apply to the position (aka me or anyone internal) they needed to raise the salary by a lot. Boss agreed and asked what I would expect to be paid in this new role. I said 100K. Boss agreed that was fair and later came back that the salary would now be 98k with authorization to go to 100K.

    Assuming you applied and got it, would you accept 98 or still ask for 100? Or would you ask for 99? Other?

    2. Catsaber*

      I’d ask for 100k, especially if he said it was possible to do that. They might say no, but it’s worth a shot.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Since they already raised it 23k, I would take the 98k. I wouldn’t needle for the extra because then if you don’t show reason and ability to compromise, especially over such a small difference in the end, they’re probably going to go in another direction. Dickering has a limit for just about everyone, everyone wants to feel like they are getting something out of it in the end.

    4. MoopySwarpet*

      Are you 100% at the top of the experience level for the position? A 100% perfect match? Then I would push for $100k, but realistically, I would treat it as a scale published for any position and aim for the point (or just above) where I feel my skills and experience are.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I’d take the $98k. You won’t miss the small increment you’re missing, and you could make a case once you prove yourself. Go to bat for $105k once you’ve proved yourself. You can say the position is worth $100k, but your evidence that YOU are worth $100k in the market is not super strong coming from $75k with them. If they give you shot at more responsibility and a big raise, take it.

    6. LilySparrow*

      Of course ask for 100!

      What kind of idiot boss is going to nickle and dime $2k on $100k? That’s ridiculous.

      You know it’s authorized, and if you get any pushback you can ask with quite sincere interest what qualification they believe would merit the $2k difference. If you’re qualified to do the job, you deserve the whole salary.

  113. Zombie Unicorn*

    Question for UK people in particular: why would a recruiter only provide an actual job description to people who’ve been shortlisted?

    I saw an advert that said this recently. It wasn’t an attempt to keep people from finding out the employer as they listed the employer and salary, but the ad only had some very generic details of the role and what they wanted so I couldn’t tell if it was a good fit for me. They said a full JD would be provided to shortlisted candidates. WTF.

    They wanted a CV (what everyone else calls a resume) but I can’t tailor my CV to a role without a proper job description or tell if it’s worth taking the time to do so if I can’t see the JD and person spec. Good candidates with options aren’t going to waste time on this – so what on earth is the point, and why would someone think this is a good idea?

    I think the UK context matters here as it is very normal to provide a role description and person spec and generally you’d tailor any application to that.

    1. Weegie*

      This is complete nonsense, and I’ve genuinely never seen this before. But the, I work in a world where 3-page JDs are not unusual and transparency is the norm.

      I’m assuming it’s an agency that’s advertising the role on behalf of an employer? If this is their only job listing like this, and all their other ones have full JDs, then presumably the employer has asked them to do it. (Why?? Afraid of it being copied by other employers?)

      Possible reasons I can think of:

      1. They don’t want to get tons of CVs deliberately using identical wording to the JD, thereby gaming the system.
      2. National security.

      Of the two, the former seems more likely. But you never know.

      1. Zombie Unicorn*

        Hahaha it’s not 2 – it’s a charity sector job. The employer has full JDs for roles advertised on their website, but looking at the recruiter’s site they seem to do this with all their vacancies – you can’t get a job description unless you send them your CV. They seem to be labouring under the impression that you can just fire off a CV without needing to tailor it in any way.

        It just shows such utter disrespect for people’s time – I don’t want to spend time tailoring my CV if I can’t get a proper feel for the job. And how in hell am I supposed to know what to highlight / emphasise? I’m looking at digital / comms roles which really vary – they’re using generic descriptions that don’t tell you anything. Sigh.

        1. Weegie*

          I think I’d avoid this recruitment agency – seems a shame you can’t go round them on this occasion, and it’s definitely a waste of your time.

            1. PollyQ*

              I believe Alison has said in the past that there often isn’t any actual job associated with ads like this. It’s just a ploy for the recruiter to get people into their system.

              1. Zombie Unicorn*

                It’s actually a real job, bafflingly. I know because I emailed the employer to tell them their recruiter was putting off good candidates.

    2. tamarack & fireweed*

      TBH, in the UK, I’ve seen companies in the tech sector who wanted to sample the job market first before they decided on a hire. Especially immature ones who are still fiddling with their team structure. (Should we have a bigger professional services team, or a bigger tech support team, or a bigger core development team … and if we hire engineers, how should we apportion head counts and seniority? What experience profiles do we need, and where? Etc.)

      1. Zombie Unicorn*

        Interesting. Not the case here though – it’s in the charity sector.

        The recruiter is Prospectus and I don’t know what they are thinking.

  114. The Dude*

    Got a job offer at the end of the day on Wednesday.

    Was very eager to accept, but I told them I would need “a day or so” to talk it over with loved ones, etc. before I could confirm my acceptance.

    I’m 99% sure I’m going to accept, but haven’t yet because [personal context that’s irrelevant]. I’m wondering if I can realistically stretch that “day or so” to early next week, or if I should email today and say “I haven’t forgot about you, I need another day before I can make it official official.”

    Would I need to provide more context on why I need another day? Is it even necessary to send another message at all? Am I overthinking it?

    (Reason I’m not accepting the offer yet is that I actually have needed to talk it over with loved ones, and one loved one whose blessing is necessary has been suddenly and briefly indisposed.)

    1. Semaj*

      Definitely touch base, especially because Monday is a holiday (if you’re in the US). Make every effort to contact them Tuesday morning, they’re likely leaving other applicants hanging for you. I don’t know that an explanation is necessary, but I’d show genuine appreciation for their patience.

    2. CAA*

      Yes, contact them today! If you told them “a day or so” on Wednesday, and you don’t get back to them with something by Friday, then you definitely look uninterested. Just say that you had an unexpected family emergency this week but you’re still excited about the opportunity and you’ll definitely have a decision by Monday. Then you really do have to give them an answer on Monday.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ideally you’d have asked for the time up front and not have to circle back to ask for more time. This may make them anxious and taint the job for awhile going forward since now they’re going to be on edge with the extra time asked for.

      I would be up front with them and tell them more rather than less. Only because you’re in a stage where they don’t know you but they have a good feeling about you and your fit in the role. So if you say “I’m sorry to ask for more time but I really have to discuss this with Loved One and they are not available until Sunday, can I get back to you on Tuesday?”

      If you just take more time than you have asked for, you are running a huge risk of them just going with their second choice if they have one. When you’re in the hiring process, you don’t get to play as coy as you can when you’re a demonstrated reliable and trustworthy employee.

    4. Goose Lavel*

      Is it a written offer? If not, get it in writing before accepting.
      Ask for more time if you need it.

    5. The dude*

      Thanks for all the advice here. Two quick updates:

      On Friday I did reach out to ask for more time. The advice above were great.

      And then this morning (Sunday) I emailed accepting the offer! Now I’m off to my favorite restaurant. Not gonna get too many more meals here before I have to move out of town!

  115. Dr. Bom*

    Well, this past week has been stressful. My manager just about got himself fired for telling our CXO that my manager’s Director has been lying to one of the other departments, all to keep up the optics. Fortunately, it looks like my manager is getting support from the CEO to unclog the political BS. And, as an added bonus, HR spoke to me to try and find other ways to support my manager and get a good feeling for the value he brings to the company, so I know he has support, but he’s worried about retaliation and I don’t think he’s wrong to be.

    It’s stuff like this that makes me happy I’m not a manager.

  116. Mimmy*

    Random post, but I’m seeking note-taking suggestions!

    What are some of your tips for taking notes in the following contexts:

    1) Power Point presentations, either at an in-person workshop or webinar
    2) Reading articles for school or work-related projects

    Regarding #1 – When I attend conferences or webinars, I want to be able to take notes without printing out the slides. I definitely learn better by making notes and highlighting on hard copy, but I recognize the need to be “green”.

    Also, I may go back for another Masters soon. When I did a graduate certificate program a few years ago, I came to the realization that my note-taking methods are very inefficient. I am appalled at how many trees I probably killed by printing out probably hundreds of articles plus my own outlines! If I do this Masters, or even if I become involved in projects that entail reading and analyzing written material, I’d like to find ways to make note-taking easier (if there is such a thing!).

    Thanks!

    1. Little Beans*

      I like to use two screens, or one really large split-screen so I can have the article open and type notes directly into a google doc at the same time. If you really prefer writing by hand, you could check our erasable notebooks like Rocketbook.

      1. Zombie Unicorn*

        I am baffled by the notion that using Google docs is somehow greener than printing something onto a piece of paper that you will reuse. The cloud is not greener – try to remember about the server rooms and electricity involved in powering it. Sometimes it’s greener to use pen and paper.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          If we’re talking about printing out articles (that already exist digitally) to then take notes on them that is less green than not printing them at all. It’s not that there’s no footprint to things in the cloud, but if they’re already there and then you print them that is less green. If we’re just talking about notes in general that could either go in a notebook or be stored digitally, it’s probably impossible to do the math on which is preferable for one individual but the line is probably also somewhere along the “does this need to exist digitally anyway” and if so, better to type it up in the first place rather than do both.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      You can also use a tablet & stylus to take notes directly on the pdf of the slides/etc

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m a tablet fan – I went through two Masters with an iPad Pro, which I used for both taking lecture notes (using the Apple Pencil) and annotating articles/PDFs/readings. For me the key was finding a good software option – I loved Notability and still use it pretty much constantly for all kinds of things. You can write in it, you can type in it, import PDFs, web clips, audio clips (recordings), pictures, all kinds of goodies. The handwriting helped things stick better to my brain, but the tech format meant I wasn’t burning through paper, and also helped with my personal foibles about oh my GOD I hate crossing things off and “marring” the flow of my notes – with Notability, erasing was easy, I had like 40 colors to choose from for color coding things, both pen tools and highlighter tools. Lined paper, grid paper, dot paper, blank paper. I have several templates that I created as PDFs and imported – my grocery list, a blank to-do list template with ticky boxes. All my gaming books (I’m a Pathfinder GM) are in there.

    4. Quandong*

      I do best when I can use mind mapping for taking notes and processing information from presentations and books, although I’ve always used paper and pencils/pens. You might like to look into this technique – there are lots of options for software if you don’t want to use paper.

      2. Mimmy*

        Annnnd I’ve now gone down a rabbit hole! If I do this second Masters, this will definitely be helpful with papers!!

    5. Mockingjay*

      If you have OneNote (MS Office), you can import slides as a printout and take notes beside each slide. It’s one of my favorite Office programs.

      Articles – same thing. If online, print to a pdf and import the pdf into OneNote.

      OneNote can set up multiple tabs, which is a great way to organize research sources and data.

      (I think there are similar non-Office programs available, but I am unfamiliar with them.)

      1. Mimmy*

        Ooooh I like the OneNote idea! I may be going to a conference in November, so I may give that a try.

    6. LilySparrow*

      The push to go paperless in every situation has now progressed to the point that it’s accelerating deforestation.

      Paper companies don’t log virgin forest much. It’s expensive, inefficient, and has a lower percentage of appropriate species.

      They mostly re-plant the same acreage over and over, so their operation can be vertically integrated, they plant the type of trees they want, and they plant in patterns that are easy to harvest. But in the meantime, you have all that acreage trapping carbon, producing oxygen, and supporting wildlife.

      Is it as good as old-growth virgin forest? Of course not. But it’s a heck of a lot better than a parking lot.

      The paper market has tanked to the point that paper companies are divesting land. Which does not get turned into a nature preserve.

      It gets sold to developers, scraped bare, and covered in concrete.

      Save the forest. Print the slides.

  117. LinkedAndConfused*

    Hey all,
    I started my first real job as a software developer six months ago after graduating. I want to get into LinkedIn to connect with old classmates and co-workers from internships and maybe recruiters. I know I should have a profile picture and that’s my problem. I don’t have any professionally done photographs and I’m generally pretty insecure about my appearance. I found a website where you can make a little pixelated person avatar that I can make a pretty close replica of my business-y self (hair nice, conservative clothing) . I think it fit with my profession in a fun way and distinguish my profile.

    Is it unprofessional? What would you think of someone who did this?

    1. CAA*

      In software development it’s almost certainly fine. If you were a financial advisor, maybe not so much. Look around Linked In at the profiles of the people you want to connect with who are in your industry. I bet you’ll find that most of them don’t have a formal headshot as their profile pic.

    2. Zombie Unicorn*

      Ideally you need an actual photo because some people won’t remember who you are. And distinguishing your profile isn’t something you should think about in terms of a novelty photo – the only way to distinguish your profile is with the actual content you put on it.

      It sucks when you don’t feel great about photos of you – I have been there! – but I’ve not seen this and don’t think it’s a thing. Can you get someone to take a nice photo?

    3. LilySparrow*

      I think you’re better off cropping a good quality snapshot, or taking a selfie in front of another unobtrusive background. Or just leaving it blank. The norms of your field might be such that it doesn’t count against you, but it kind of defeats the purpose.

      The purpose of the photo is so people will recognize you in real life. It’s not a beauty contest, you only need to look neat and presentable from the neck up.

      I know it’s an uncomfortable feeling, but try to think of it as an ID badge instead of a portrait.

  118. Little Beans*

    What kind of gift can I get someone in another department who has had to take on a lot of extra work while our department is hiring for a role? I don’t know this person well at all, she’s in another building and we mostly interact via email just about necessary work issues. A gift card to something very generic like Starbucks or Amazon? A little gift basket with snacks and a card? And should I get something for her bosses too? They are the ones who agreed to help us out, but their employee is the one actually doing all the work.

    1. Robin Ellacott*

      I agree that something generic seems best!

      If you send a gift basket you could always address it to the employee and “all those who helped us so much while we were shortstaffed” or similar. Or a coffee card with “Please get a coffee or treat as a thank you for the extra work you and your team did on our behalf. We’re very grateful!” Then she could use her discretion about who should share in the fruits of her labours.

      A Starbucks or Amazon card seems universally welcomed – the Starbucks one seems more likely to be shared, and the Amazon one more likely to just be used by the employee, so you could decide based on how you think the thanks are best distributed.

    2. Not My Money*

      I found a company online that sells sampler pen sets in various colors. Most of the pens are from Japan and you get approximately 12-15 pens. My staff loved them. Jet pens

  119. WhiteMage*

    I’m considering going back to school or bootcamp for coding! But I want to spend more time to try out coding and to save up for a program since I’m currently unemployed. Got two job offers and am not sure what to go with? One concern is that I’ll end up not loving coding enough to go back to schooling and instead stick with the job-so should I pick the choice that gives me better skillset and mobility? Or focus on having a better commute and pay? I would really appreciate any advice.

    Job Offer A (data entry position in Billing Dept.)

    + chances to learn new skills – maybe advance to become an analyst?
    + better benefits
    – less pay ($14/hr)
    – longer commute (2.5hr)

    Job Offer B (admin position at an education company)

    + better pay ($18/hr)
    + better commute (1.25hr)
    – little to no opportunities to advance because it’s a small company

    If I were to decide to switch into the coding field, I would want to wait at least 2 years to save up enough money.

    1. LQ*

      That’s a really rough commute. I think I’d have to go for the better pay better commute. You could take that extra hour a day and do some free online courses and try to do some side project or join in on some other side projects that are out there.

    3. EA in CA*

      Better pay and better commute is what I would choose. Working there for two years gives you more free time to take online classes to learn the basics of coding since you don’t have a long commute and the higher pay gives you more to save. There is no guarantee that Job A will give you the opportunity to advance, so you may be stuck with the low wage. Two years is a short time frame for any sort of promotion from an entry level role, unless you have previous experience in that department.

    4. Alianora*

      How’s your financial situation? And do you have experience with long commutes?

      Personally, I’d go with B because the commute has a huge impact on my mental well-being. 5 hours each day on the road means you would basically have no time to do anything other than eat, sleep, and work on workdays. (Unless it’s 2.5 total, which is still a lot but bearable.)

      This might also be skewed by me living in a very high cost of living area, where even $18/hour would be difficult to live on.

    5. Anono-me*

      Woould you need to wait 2 years at $14 or at $18 an hour?

      Can you take free online coding classes now to see how you like it?

      Unless the bennies are significantly better or the Analyst position is 99% guaranteed within a year and would pay $20+ to start; I say go with the better pay and commute.

      $4 an hour is a huge difference and so is two hours a day of commuting time. You may want to think of it as :

      Job B =$13.31 per hour

      $18×8=$144 a day and 8+1.5+1.5=11 hours of your day and $144÷11=$13.31 of pay per hour of your day devoted to your workplace.

      vs.

      Job A =$8.38 per hour

      $14×8=$112 a day and 8+2.5+2.5=13 hours of your day and $112÷13=$8.38 per hour of your life devoted to your workplace.

      (I’m assuming that the commute costs are the same via a mass transit pass. If they different significantly, I would factor in the costs including vehicle depreciation.)

    6. PollyQ*

      If it were me, commute & pay would absolutely carry the day. And speaking as a programmer, coding is absolutely something you can at least begin to pick up on your own.

    7. Platypus Enthusiast*

      Long time lurker, first time commenter. I would say go with B- think about your time as having a monetary value! That time spent commuting adds up. Also, I know you said there’s the chance of learning new skills and advancing at A, but that’s a maybe. Also, I know you said B is a smaller company, but is there any chance the may subsidize some of the cost, or have access to discounts, if you’d like to take coding classes?

    8. Hmm*

      As a person with 2 hour commute I’d say – pick Offer B. It even has better pay!
      And a data entry position will not make you a programmer (speaking as a Software Developer).

    9. A.Beth*

      My spouse worked 30 years with a 1.25 hour commute — both ways. (So he left a little “late,” and got back 8:30. This avoided the worst of the traffic in the areas that could get really congested, but his job did allow flex, so long as the total hours per day matched everyone else’s.) That’s a LONG COMMUTE. You really need to be okay with driving, okay with the route you’re taking, and have a place that’d be fine with you working from home some of the time.

      I’d say, if you don’t need the better benefits of Job A, look strongly at the better commute and better pay one — with that extra hour (or two hours?), you could probably take an online class on coding. Doing a daily commute of over an hour is a grind.

      (Good luck!)

  120. Lovecraft Beauty*

    Previously.

    I’m still struggling a lot. I have impressed my boss with my willingness to jump in and Do Stuff, and I am trying to learn as much as I can and be interested and curious. I knew this was going to be a hard transition, and I am trying really hard to take this place on its own terms and not compare it to my previous employer; I am Not Allowed, barring actual abusive behavior or similar, to worry this move was a mistake until November 1 (which will be the 3-month mark).

    But the technical environment feels chaotic, and the prospect of being one of the people to make it a functional dev shop is not exciting, it is panic-inducing. My boss is super-enthusiastic and ambitious, and I feel crushed by the prospect of his grand plans. And my coworkers are …cordial but not friendly, and I’m genuinely shocked by how isolated and lonely I feel.

    I’m having to duck out of the office literally every day to cry. I have cried more in the past month than I did in the previous five years.

    1. TechWorker*

      I’m sorry you’re having a really rough time! Do you have a sense of whether your boss’ plans are grand and totally unrealistic, or grand-but-doable if the investment is put in? Are you responsible for carrying out some of the changes? If so I would
      1) make sure your boss *really* appreciates the current state of play (eg if he’s saying ‘we can do this really great amazing thing!!!’ And inside you’re thinking ‘yea, sure, once we spend 3 years fixing up the technical debt’ – then try to quantify and write down that technical debt
      2) try to split up the grand plans into smaller, more achievable chunks. This might help with the panic (I’m not going to worry about us being THE BEST AND MOST FUNCTIONAL OF THE DEV SHOPS, instead we’ll work on x and y, and reassess after that.
      3) if there’s other things coming in that will make the existing stuff actually worse, then call it out. If you are being asked to do new stuff on top of crap code, then bump up the estimates for the new stuff and deal with one bit of technical debt at a time. You can do that in a way that gives best ROI on the current task, eg ‘when we’re developing x new thing, y tool is going to really slow us down’ – so include fixing y tool at the same time.

      With being isolated and lonely – some workplaces just are more social than others :( it might be a good idea to take up a hobby so that you a) have something to focus on outside work and b) have the opportunity to meet new people.

      Not sure if any of that’s helpful but I wish you the best of luck!!

      (Signed, someone who took over a project with huge amounts of technical debt, with a overly optimistic boss, and is still sometimes kept up at night… but has turned a corner!)

  121. miho*

    I find it really difficult to discern what my managers think of me at my new job.

    In front of me, they’ve told me repeatedly how well I fit in with the team and have jokingly told me many times that they don’t want me to leave. But, I’ve overheard them complaining about my work. Whenever I make a mistake in an email or project, instead of correcting me or letting me know, they simply don’t respond to my email and talk about the mistake I made behind my back.

    My managers have been working together as a 2-person team for 8 years now. They’ve functioned just fine without an assistant for many years, and I’m honestly not sure why they hired me considering that they have very minimal work for me to do. But I also suspect that they’re just not used to having an outsider join their close-knit team, and that’s why there are hiccups in communication?

    1. Kathenus*

      I’d suggest asking for a regular catch up meeting to touch base on a weekly/bi-weekly basis. How to address the situation you describe might be up to your comfortability. Ideally, you can ask straight out – ‘I’ve received good feedback about how I’m fitting in with the team, but I’ve also overheard some comments that make me think you might have concerns about aspects of my performance’. If you are comfortable with this honest approach, it can be a way to get right to the heart of it which is the conflicting messages you’re getting (one directly, one indirectly by overhearing).

      If you don’t want to be this direct, you could have each meeting have a basic agenda – review the period since the last meeting briefly as to what you’re working on and ask any needed questions, then ask for ongoing feedback, especially as a new employee, on areas where you are doing well and where you can continue to learn and improve. If these are part of every meeting then it might make it easier for there to be a more honest dialogue on a regular basis about your performance and help take out your anxiety with not knowing. Good luck.

  122. Semaj*

    Does anyone have ideas for how to build community at work? A feeling of belonging is so crucial, and I’m trying to brainstorm things we could to do help. Brownbags where we bring board games and invite people to hang out over the lunch hour is about my only idea. Cookie contests? All ideas, both cheesy and practical, are wanted! Ideally nothing we’d have to spend funds on.

    1. R2D2*

      This is a tiny idea, but my company just hung up a “community board” in the break room. People can post “for sale” items, posters for local events, group photos, etc.

    2. Likeanapple*

      Create a space for folks to display things that are important to them! For example, create a “Pets of Teapot Co” board, where people can bring in and post a picture of their pet, or do a “Hobbies” board where people can put up a picture of them biking, or a picture of the quilt they made, or whatever. It’s a little more specific and engaging than some of the usual “get to know you” activities, and maybe a little less pressure for shy people.

    3. Fikly*

      My company uses slack, and we have a bunch of (non-mandatory) interest channels! We have one for cats, one for dogs, one for children, one for music, etc., etc. I really enjoy that, especially as I work remotely, so it lets me be part of the community even outside the office.

  123. merp*

    Made it a whole month without missing work because of migraines!

    Maybe that’s not an accomplishment, but I’m very excited. I’ve on and off been that employee who does use a lot of sick time and I’ve always worried about it looking bad even though my managers have never said anything.

    1. Llama Face!*

      Oh hurray! Congrats from another employee who deals with similar health & missed work struggles! :)

  124. ISO information on outsourcing companies*

    I would like to solicit the group’s feedback on companies that outsource HR functions for smaller businesses (e.g., Zenefits, ADP, and others). I am at a non-US company that has several US citizens as employees, and we are looking for an outside company to administer US payroll and benefits. Any recommendations would be welcome.

    1. mreasy*

      I like Justworks – both as a former HR and as a current employee at a place where it’s being used.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      ADP is okay for payroll processing but I wouldn’t want them dealing with benefits, they’re decent enough at payroll unless there’s a new GD state law that comes into act and then it’s a frigging nightmare getting anyone to know what’s going on.

    3. k8pages*

      If you’re looking for a single full-service solution, Google “PEO” – Professional Employer Organizations. These companies essentially serve as a co-employer, rather than services like ADP or Zenefits that can only effectively handle portions of the work for you. I’ve had good luck with TriNet in the past.

  125. NeonDreams*

    I have a job interview next week. I’m really excited because I’ve been bored out of mind at current position. The environment isn’t toxic, but I’m tired of customer service. You can only stand being yelled for something you can’t control for so long. After 5 years, I’m ready for a change.

    2. Gilmore67*

      I totally get where you are coming from. Did retail and customer service jobs for years and was SO happy when I got out.

      Good Luck !

      1. MlleJennyfair*

        Go you, NeonDreams! Being blamed for stuff that isn’t within your control is frustrating, and people have gotten less and less tolerant/kind/polite. I feel for ya! Hope the interview goes well and you can get out CS!

  126. Recession Blues*

    I’m unemployed and all the news articles about the upcoming recession isn’t making me feel any better. This is strange but… has anyone specifically chosen to be employed in certain industries or large companies to minimize the chances of a recession heavily impacting themselves? If so, which industries/companies/jobs? I come from a healthcare background and hated it, which is why I wanted to look for positions outside of the healthcare field. But now I’m wondering whether I should go back into it, ride out the recession, and then look for a different field afterwards? I only have 2-3 years of job experience post-college so it’s not helping with the recession anxieties since I’ll probably be the first one to go if the recession hits really hard…

    1. Lovecraft Beauty*

      Part of the appeal of higher ed for me was that it’s slow to contract in recessions. It’s not recession-proof, but it’s better than a lot of industries.

    2. Graciosa*

      The short answer is no, and the longer one is that I wouldn’t expect that it is possible to find a job which is “recession proof” or guaranteed not to be affected by economic swings. Health care is good, but even that does depend to an extent on what people can afford to do (and thus the hospital census / private practitioner book of business).

      I have had a career in very large companies which have taken actions that affect employees (furloughs, layoffs, etc.). Large companies may be “safer” in some ways than startups, but that does not guarantee your job. I speak as someone who was laid off from one.

      Owning your own business allows you to make decisions – but it does not insulate you from being impacted in a recession. You have to get customers to purchase and pay for your product or service, which is harder when money is tight.

      One thing that helps – and yes, I know this is easier to say than to do – is to ensure you can support yourself as long as possible when you need to. It doesn’t help much to say this before you get a job – or in the short term – but start thinking about how you can get yourself in the best position long term when you are employed.

      Economic cycles *will* come and go for the rest of your career. Finding ways to ensure you do not live in terror of losing your next paycheck makes a big difference.

      What helped me (eventually – after a long time) was living like I was broke for a while after I got a job. When I started getting raises, I always put half the raise into something (savings, 401k, an investment, discounted employee stock purchase, etc.) and only kept the other half. My standard of living went up a bit, but not without attending to savings.

      When I was laid off in the last recession, I was able to keep going despite the lack of a paycheck. Don’t depend on any employer or industry to shield you from a recession. When you can, try to take steps to make sure you can survive it yourself.

      Planning is a good antidote to fear.

      I’m sorry you’re starting out in the midst of this, and wish you the best.

    3. CheeryO*

      It’s not strange at all. Part of the appeal of government positions is that they tend to be more stable (YMMV depending on level of government and agency, obviously). I work for a state agency that isn’t going away anytime soon, and we’re almost recession-proof. There were layoffs in 2010, but I believe everyone who wanted to come back was able to get re-hired when positions opened back up.

    4. M*

      Higher ed. And if you have a healthcare background but didn’t love it I would still look at healthcare in higher ed (lots of universities hire for their health centers). I would also say apply for entry level jobs. You can work your way up and change departments usually if you prove yourself. But don’t apply for anything more than entry level or one step up I would say if you only have 2-3 years of work experience. Higher ed usually has great benefits and you are safer from a recession. I would also say apply for jobs soon after they come online. Most universities start looking within the first 14 days of postings (some like government have to wait the period it states on the job description) so if a job comes up today that looks good write up an excellent cover letter and CV and send it in. Good luck!

      I looked at a bunch of CVs and cover letters recently because I’m hiring. My biggest thing is some people arent’t connecting the dots— what did you do before that will help with this role, especially if you want to switch careers. Some people have big gaps and no explanation— if you had to take care of family, stay at home, etc it would be more helpful. How will your background in healthcare aid in your new career? I personally think you can make many connections in your cover letter in healthcare and higher ed. You want to get that interview so use this website to write the best cover letter and CV possible. Good luck!!

    5. Aphrodite*

      I work in higher eduction where classified staff, of which I am one, are union protected. That’s not to say we can’t get laid off but the college is committed to not laying off, simply not filling positions unless they have been proven to be essential. In fact, two days ago, we received an email outlining the new “hard freeze.” A number of positions that had been in the interview stage were stopped with a few exceptions, including the new president and the VP of HR.

      But . . . if you can get a staff position in higher ed, and if the college is stable, and if you are willing to sell your soul for fantastic benefits and (mostly) stable work, it might be worth a look at colleges (two- and four-year) around you.

    6. Gatomon*

      I used to work in state government, where it is typically countercyclical (hires more in bad times and less in slow times). Unfortunately after I left there were a number of layoffs and office closures in my division. It didn’t affect the office I was in, but it still makes you nervous to hear that when times are good. My job directly dealt with people losing jobs, so it was always on my mind and still is. It was probably a bit traumatizing, but that experience does keep me from going and financing a flashy sports car.

      I’m now in telecom, which I believe is pretty stable, though I didn’t specifically target it for that reason. I’m the least experienced so I’d probably be the first to go if there were layoffs in my department, but we’re so busy that I’m not sure what it would have to look like for that to happen. Doesn’t mean something can’t or won’t change, but I take precautions anyway by trying to keep a decent emergency fund and paying down debt. The company has been more focused on spending wisely lately, but we are in good shape overall and it makes sense to not waste money. I think our leaders are moving in the right direction.

      One thing that helps me when I feel very anxious is just simulating what would happen if I did lose my job. What things I could cut/reduce expenses on, what actions I could take (rent out a bedroom, temp work, UI) and how long I could “survive” on my reserves and UI benefits. My state has a benefits calculator you can use to get a sense of what your UI benefit amount would look like based on your past earnings. I check every once in a while to see where I’m at. We may or may not see a recession soon, but longterm there will be one again someday, so it’s prudent to be prepared.

    7. Mazzy*

      I think you should just keep applying to whatever you want and ignore the recession news. I have a few bucks and I’ve been completely consumed with recession news and it’s driven me to make bad, overly conservative financial decisions for my age and risk level. There are a few things going on. One, the yield curve may truly have inverted because money is rushing into the US away from low interest rates abroad. Two, there is a plethora of youtube and other channels and people selling gold that have a vested interest in predicting the next recession, and lately, I’ve noticed them repeating the same stories, which makes them seem larger than they are, while ignoring positive news. Three, the media is overhyping the trade war story because they don’t like the person in the oval office. I’m not saying that there are no cons to tariffs, but they are not the reason for a recession or stock market crash. Four, we actually did a bit of a slowdown and stock market drop in 2015 into 2016. The last one wasn’t in 2008, even though the media makes it sound like we’ve had this great up, up, up market for 11 years. That’s not the way it was. There was stagnation and then stocks went back down in 2015-2016. Maybe we’re just going to have a period like that coming up? Fifth, and last, the economy is always changing. What crashed in the past will not crash now. Many stocks and companies are already not doing well, despite no recession, while others are doing very well. You never really know which will be which until they report earnings. A huge amount of stocks and companies have already peaked, a small number of companies are keeping market indices high. What does that mean? It could mean a recession, or it could mean slowing growth, or it could mean a rolling bear market, where only certain sectors are hit, and it means that at this point, the market most likely already peaked, so if you get hired now, I wouldn’t expect them to be completely sidelined by a recession and then fire you. They probably already took the cost of your role into account.

      1. Mazzy*

        I forgot to say this. There is a sentiment out there that every recession now has to be like 2008-2010. There is no reason that needs to be the case. Stock markets may be more volatile with more automated trading, but that means larger swings, not larger drops in the actual economy. I’m also seeing “record corporate debt” as a talking point for saying the next recession will be horrible. Well, that isn’t necessarily true. Companies have plans on how long it will take to pay the debt back. AT&T for example had a record $190 BN debt, but they can afford it, so that is not a sign the economy will collapse.

        We have no idea how large the next recession will be, but people forget that 2008 was a bad one and won’t necessarily be repeated every 10 years. We probably are going to have a normal recession, and GE is probably going bankrupt due to Accounting lies, but that won’t collapse the economy in the way banks did in 2008, because GE has been on the decline for years.

  127. Eponymous*

    Today is my last day of full-time work. Classes start on Tuesday and I’ll be working fewer hours. I now own a desk and computer peripherals have been ordered.

    Of course, yesterday was the perfect time for my supervisor to ask me to drop everything and switch to a massive report. He wants the draft on Wednesday, which is my first work-from-home day, which really only gives me today and Tuesday to get this done.

    And to make things more interesting, this week some ongoing issues with a senior staff member in another department took a serious turn. He’s a friendly older man who likes to chat, but he exclusively chats “with” (read “at”) women. But he’s gone way too far in a number of respects. Turns out he had already been told not to bother another group of women and since he couldn’t talk to them he started bothering my group. We’ve now raised complaints with our department head and he’s going to get HR involved.

    I don’t have the time to deal with that! I just want to put on headphones and get all of this work done!

  128. Wishing my office was a library*

    How do you deal with the office loud talker? I think this individual naturally has a loud voice, but he’s also pretty passionate about his job and will often speak VERY loudly on the phone. We work in an open office environment (which certainly doesn’t help) but he’s currently in a conference room and I can clearly hear every word he’s saying. I’m not in the same department as him and not above him in the hierarchy. He also has a reputation as not being open to feedback. Any advice?

    1. Nowhereland*

      It doesn’t solve the issue in its entirety; but ask your workplace to install noise dampening panels in the conference room.

    2. Nowhereland*

      It doesn’t solve the issue in its entirety; but ask your workplace to install noise dampening panels in the conference room. There are acoustics companies that can make it easier for people in confernece rooms to hear each other, while also preventing sound from escaping the room.

  129. Katertot*

    I had a phone interview on Wednesday for a position I really want. It would allow me to return home (I’ve been out of state for the past year and hate it) to my family and friends, and work at my alma matter. It didn’t go well. I had spent the first 7 hours of the day outside at an event in the 90+ heat with no time for a meal outside of an iced coffee and a granola bar. I’m pretty sure I was halfway to heat stroke.

    I wish there was an acceptable way to explain stuff like this without sounding like you’re making excuses or had poor planning. Unfortunately it was the only time that worked.

    I haven’t heard back but am not hopeful. Uuuggghhh.

  130. MOAS*

    maybe a work thread, maybe not….kind of a rant but open to hear the “other side” so to speak.

    Why do people at medical centers/Dr offices just say “hold on” or “one sec” instead of communicating if they’re going to put me on hold, actually answer my question or do the task I’m needing help with?

    I feel like every place I call, I tell the whole story and I end up having to repeat it 4-5 times until I get any kind of resolution.

    its really frustrating when they say “hold on” and I don’t know if I’ll be talking to them or transferred to a 3rd or 4th person who was blindly transferred and needs me to repeat everything.

    It’s happened in so many places that I’m wondering if it’s just something at medical places.

    I can’t imagine anyone doing this in my line of work, everyone from interns upwards are trained to say something to the effect of “I’m sorry, I’m not the (person you’re looking for) but I can help you out by _ and _”

    1. Alianora*

      It’s not just medical offices. I think that happens when someone is either new to phone work or it just isn’t a big part of their job. I agree that it’s not very professional.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s usually because they don’t have the same kind of phone system that lets calls ring until they’re answered, so they have to pick up and put it on hold or it gets dumped completely or will continue to ring through, which impedes people’s ability to help the person who was “in line” first.

      The right thing to do and most of what I see is “Please hold” and then they hit the hold button. Some do the “Do you mind waiting on hold?” maneuver but then you get the people who blurt out “I do mind, you better help me RIGHT NOW.” so that’s why they don’t ask much.

      Doctor’s offices have a lot of hoops to jump through, regulations wise. They also have clunky software frequently. What I love is when I call and make an appointment, give them all the details and the doctor doesn’t have any of that information when I show up because it’s apparently eaten by their system gremlins.

      It’s the high amount of calls, the high pressure and the high amount of details involved. which leaves limited amount of space for the common courtesy sort of speak that we’re used to on a non-medical world level.

      Thankfully my doctor is a huge clinic with a phone queue. So no being put on hold unless they have to call someone to figure something out in the middle of the phone call. But this has always been the smaller places with just a few hands on deck for the office work and scheduling kind of thing.

      1. Mimmy*

        That explains my primary doctor’s office! It’s mainly just her and the two office workers plus part-time providers, but she has a LOT of patients so the phones practically ring off the hook. When I call her office, I get a curt “Dr. Smith’s office, please hold”, and you’re on hold for several minutes. Sometimes I get to explain why I’m calling, get put on hold, then they come back and say “Dr. Smith’s office”. Umm, it’s me waiting for you to answer the question I just asked you! I really wish she’d expand, or at least get a better phone system.

    3. Mimi Me*

      I call health insurance companies all day, every day. If I had a dollar for every time I have been asked to hold on only to have them blindly transfer me to another person (usually someone who is unable to help me) I could comfortably retire right now. MD offices are usually filled with very rude staff who seem put out that I am calling them to update them on the status of the patient they’ve referred to us for care. Oh…and another issue with MD offices? What’s the deal with them referring the patient for care and then not actually having a note of it anywhere on their end? Almost all of them ask me what the care is for! This job has made me a better, more involved patient and healthcare for sure!!!

    5. AutolycusinExile*

      I work for an answering service that answers for quite a few different medical accounts. That means I see my coworkers do this with callers quite a bit, so I have some insight.
      First is this: a lot of the time you aren’t actually talking to the office or its employees, especially not initially. More and more often companies contract out their phone lines to us, answering services. We then either transfer the caller to the appropriate person or take a message for a call back, ostensibly freeing up the ‘actual’ employees to do more of their job and less customer service/phone tag.
      What that means is that a lot of the people answering the phones are making minimum wage and working in a call center. Mine is actually quite nice, but a ton are… not. This leads to high turnover and increased hiring of people with limited customer service skills, as well as people who could have been good but got burnt out by the shitty environment. They’re also often young, doing it as a second job, or other things that make professionalism a lower priority. Or they just don’t realize what they’re doing. In other words, you aren’t talking to medical professionals so it’s not really surprising to me that your office professionals would be more… professional, even the interns. The office gets what it pays for, and call center ops aren’t paid much and it ends up rolling downhill to the customer.

      1. AutolycusinExile*

        When you are actually speaking with the office itself or the medical professionals, the impression I get is that they have medical/office training but not customer service training (even the receptionists) so that is likely contributing here. Specialist doctors are often known for their lack of bedside manner, but that trickles down through the whole industry in my experience :/
        Since being polite and helpful on the phone isn’t technically a part of their job description, there aren’t any consequences for not doing so and a lot of workers decide it isn’t worth the investment in emotional labor, especially when callers are going to be upset about something (illness, billing, scheduling, etc) either way. The upside for them doing the extra work to be polite isn’t worth the effort. It sucks, and I definitely disagree with this attitude both as a phone operator and from the other side as a patient, but there isn’t much we can do since there isn’t any downside that they care about.

        Long story short, those of us who work with these people share your pain, and I wish there was more we could do! Alas…

      2. MOAS*

        Thank you so much for the detailed reply. If I think about it, most of these are offices where the person I am talking to otp works there as a receptionist/medical assistant. The rare times I talk to Dr is fine — it’s whoever answers the phone. So it’s not a call center.

        Most recently I was calling on behalf of my mom (doesn’t speak English). The girl just kept saying hold on. (Not that I was talking over her to clarify—). She ended up doing the task but a little communication would have been nice. I didn’t want to make a stink since she actually did it.

        1. Zombie Unicorn*

          Have you ever considered they are saying what they mean?

          One second = wait. It’s that simple.

          1. MOAS*

            It’s actually not that simple, which is why I decided to ask here. My purpose for asking was that it would be nice to know if I am going to be put on hold, I will be hleped or what. I’m used to communicating a certain way at my job and was wondering why it’s done another way. So, no, not really that simple. But most of the comments here were very kind and helpfl.

    6. LilySparrow*

      I volunteer once a week on the front desk in a community clinic. I try to avoid this, but when I do it, there are a few possible reasons:

      1) There are multiple lines ringing at once, and/or multiple people standing st my desk, and I’m triaging the communication (not medical triage, I’m not a nurse).

      2) I honestly can’t answer whether I can help them or not until I check on something. Maybe they asked for an appointment on Wednesday, and all the slots are full- but I know that sometimes an RN can do the test they need on standing orders, and they don’t really need to see the doctor. But I can’t offer that option or even suggest it exists without checking first.

      3) There are patients in the waiting room, or hanging over my counter writing up their paperwork, and it would be inappropriate to answer the question where they can hear me.

      4) There is some special circumstance with the patient, and I’ve either been instructed to consult a higher-up about anything to do with them, or I know a staff member needed to speak with them. But I can’t tell that to an intermediary or announce it in the waiting room.

      Generally, I’d advise *not* telling the whole detailed story to the receptionist. They can’t do anything with 99 percent of the information anyhow, and it just increases your frustration.

      Start with patient name & info, and the specific thing you need, like “I have a question about X” or “I need to get copies of Y.” Wait for them or the person they transfer you to, to ask for the info they need. You’ll wind up repeating yourself less.

  131. Misgendered, Not Miss-Gendered*

    I HAVE BEEN OUT AT WORK FOR FIVE YEARS AND PEOPLE STILL MISGENDER ME

    THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO PRIDE THEMSELVES ON THEIR PROFESSIONALISM AND ATTENTION TO DETAIL

    I SCREAM HERE BECAUSE I CANNOT SCREAM THERE

    AAAAAAA

    1. HereKittyKitty*

      Just here to say this sucks and I’m sorry and I wish there were more protections in place to allow you to confront this, or at least scream at work. <3

      1. Misgendered, Not Miss-Gendered*

        Thank you. I replied-all on my one-line “My pronouns continue to be they/them” response to this person doing this IN EMAIL to someone I had NEVER MET, so now the new person’s first impression of me is that I’m that troublemaking trans, which is great. But I can’t let it go uncorrected after FIVE. YEARS. Grarharhhahgghgh.

    2. blackcat*

      I am sorry you have to put up with that bullshit. I also really appreciate your choice of name.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this.

      Have you had any kind of diversity training as a company? Is it something you could suggest to HR if not?

      1. Misgendered, Not Miss-Gendered*

        Thank you. It’s a small company and our “HR” is the office manager, but I guess I can ask.

    5. agnes*

      I am so sorry. That is not acceptable. We had a similar situation at work here and the supervisor who could not seem to “remember” the transitioned employee’s new name or gender finally got terminated for creating a hostile work environment. I thought that was absolutely appropriate. The supervisor “forgot” to order a new nameplate for the employee; kept “forgetting” the employee’s new name; “forgot” to put the employee’s new name on the schedule (the old name was very gender specific, so it was quite evident); and “forgot’ the employee’s new name when introducing them to clients. The supervisor was repeatedly warned and did not change their behavior, so I’m very glad my company stepped up and said NOPE. NO MORE.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m so glad that they terminated that fool.

        I had someone change their name and the first thing I did was update everything because duh, that’s what you do, it’s absurd to refuse to do it. I don’t know how many warnings is “repeated” warnings but my threshold is probably at about 3. I’d tell you once, the next schedule better be correct. If I see it’s not done right, you’re redoing it. That’s 2. Then if it happens again after being told to redo it and to order the GD name plate, you’re out.

      2. Misgendered, Not Miss-Gendered*

        OH YIKES SUPER NOT OKAY. I’m glad I don’t have to deal with anything like that. My colleagues genuinely mean well. But they don’t mean well enough to put effort into remembering, apparently.

    7. Misgendered, Not Miss-Gendered*

      Hey, I wasn’t actually expecting any replies here, I just thought I was screaming into the void. It feels really good to know the void has my back. <3 Thanks y'all.

    8. Robin Ellacott*

      Sorry. Past a certain point (which is LONG before 4 years) it’s clear they just aren’t prioritizing this or caring enough to be even minimally respectful. If a boss or client asked to be called Ms. __ would they forget THAT? I bet they wouldn’t.

      Your screaming is valid and justified.

  132. HR Disney Princess*

    After working in HR for 6 years, I think I’m finally ready to change to something else, something VERY different. I am currently going through the certification process to become a Personal Trainer. The money won’t be as good, nor will the hours most likely… but honestly, I’m okay with it. I am not someone who does well in an office and I much prefer something more hands on and forces me to move around. I get too bored at a desk.

    I had a conversation with my husband recently about how I actually found more joy when I was a cashier while in college than I do working in HR. He is incredibly supportive and we are fortunate that we are fine with his salary alone, so I’m more looking for a career in something I enjoy rather than focusing on the pay. If anyone has made any massive career changes, I’d love to hear all about it. The good and the bad. :)

  133. MlleJennyfair*

    Like you, I sit on my keester about 7-8 hours each workday. I asked my HR department about getting a convertible standing desk in order to sit or stand during the day and was referred to *huge insurance company.* I must apply for FMLA and ADA in order to get this standing desk converter. !! I don’t have to take leave, but requesting these is just a way of getting me the equipment.
    I am waayyyyyyy hesitant to apply for disability status: I really want this for health and flexibility, and am afraid that being officially categorized and put on record as disabled might have negative future repercussions on insurance rates, new employment, even living accommodations in the far future.
    Am I being too paranoid about this?
    Has anyone seen this come back to bite him or her?

    [In the meanwhile, I’ve asked HR if I can purchase my own equipment, if they have guidelines (like an aesthetic I must follow), and if they will consider subsidizing my purchase. We’re a big company with a great program promoting health and wellness, so I’m not sure why this isn’t already a thing here…]

    1. Margaret*

      Do you know if they have a policy more generally about buying office supplies/furniture/equipment that deviates from the standard? Maybe they have a policy that you must use the standard office furniture unless you require a medical accommodation? I mean, that kind of policy would be ridiculous, in my opinion, but it’s also ridiculous of them to tell you to go that route unless there’s some kind of miscommunication (e.g., they think you’re asking for this for a specific medical issue.)

      I wouldn’t apply for FMLA or ADA, I would reiterate to them that you’re not asking for accommodation for a specific issue, you’re just asking for different furniture for personal preference and general wellness, and pursue what they policy is about more general individualized request for purchases.

      I asked for a yoga ball chair when I was pregnant (so sorta medical, wasn’t prescribed though was just a “this might be helpful” kind of thing). All I did was ask the admin who deals with office supplies and she ordered it for me! I don’t know if she ran it by someone higher up for approval but if so it wasn’t a problem. If standing convertible desks weren’t already standard (they are here, implemented maybe 5 years ago), I probably would have to go through some kind of approval but it would be because of aesthetic standards like you mention, nothing else. As long the cost isn’t unreasonable (which can be impacted by bulk orders – e.g., harder to get a different computer model because of how they do the purchasing on a contract), there’s no problem buying certain items or having them reimbursed. It’s just part of doing business and an easy way to have happy employees.

    2. Neosmom*

      My boss saw me stand awkwardly / painfully after being seated for several hours. His reaction was, “Uggghhhh (very concerned).” So I looked on the office supply website for a highly-rated convertible desk and emailed him the link and requested it. I volunteered to go get a doctor’s note if he felt we needed that to justify the expense.

      Once it arrived and I started using it, I noticed a huge improvement right away. If you need it, do what you can to get this piece of equipment. I am just frustrated with myself for not taking this action sooner.

    3. PollyQ*

      If you don’t have an existing health issue, but are just looking to make a healthier choice, I’d hope you wouldn’t even qualify for FMLA/ADA. I think your company’s being stupid and short-sighted, and if they had any sense they’d be looking to prevent ergonomic issues. But speaking as someone who is disabled, and has had to use FMLA accomodations, I’m dismayed that they’re pushing you to go down that path. (If you do have a disability, then obviously ignore all of this.)

      But to answer your question, no, having used FMLA in a job setting shouldn’t even be on your “record”, except with that company, and shouldn’t affect things like insurance, employment, or housing.

    4. Delta Delta*

      I suggest a workaround. I worked with a guy who constructed his own standing-type desk out of creative things (won’t detail because anonymity). It cost him about $8 and once he got the hang of it he could switch back and forth as quickly as with a convertible desk. If you’re creative you may be able to do the same without being reclassified.

    5. Ergonomic Equipment Requestor*

      I have never heard of having to apply for FMLA and ADA to get ergonomic equipment. I have reached out to HR myself with a doctor’s note requesting ergonomic equipment as an accommodation and have always gotten it without any trouble (this has been at a couple of jobs now). This has not had any impact on my employer-sponsored insurance rates, nor has it had any impact on my career (promotions, getting new jobs, etc.).

      I don’t see why there would be any issue with you buying your own equipment if you are in a standard office setup and if the company won’t pay for it. You are trying to maintain the health and integrity of your body.

  134. Misunderstood in Higher Ed*

    Hello everyone,
    I work in Higher ed in two departments, with two direct lines to report to. I’ve already worked in department A for over a year but recently was added to department B to help better align the two. I get along really well with my manager in department A. I thought I got off to a good start with my department B manager but our first couple of weeks together were crazy due to an emergency from another department (neither A or B) consuming our workload. However, recently there was a meeting involving department A and department B for the first time. Things got a little tense during a back and forth between manager A and B. When I had my 1v1 with manager A, they expressed their offense to me and asked me a lot of questions about the purpose of that meeting, and some next steps involving their manager (my grandboss A). Then later in the week, I had my first 1v1 with manager B, who started off the meeting asking about tension. I tried to explain the situation with manager A, but manager B cut me off. Manager B said I’m not talking about manager A, they are not in the room, I’m talking about you. I was taken aback and surprised. I explained that I wouldn’t say I have any tension, but that there is some confusion with the new setup about who owns what. Manager B explained the breakdown so I could understand more clearly, but circled back to ask me about tension I had, emphasizing that I need to be honest with them. I told them that was it, just needing clarity, but they squinted their eyes looking while looking at me saying they thought there was still more to it. While later on in the meeting I was praised for the good work I did in the emergency situation, I still left with this pit in my stomach. I was shocked that manager B thinks I have some lingering problem when I don’t. I encouraged Manager B to talk to Manager A, but they said they didn’t need to because they won’t be working on exactly the same thing (think two different sides of the same coin). I have anxiety, depression, complex PTSD, and quiet borderline personality disorder (I have not disclosed that to my employer) and for the most part have been high functioning (many years of therapy), but I can’t stop feeling weird about “tension” part of the 1v1, like I have done something wrong. I understand Manager B doesn’t want to be viewed as a roadblock, but I think we are all trying to figuring out this new setup and I don’t want to get caught in a tug of war. But I don’t understand why they don’t believe that I don’t have tension. If anything there are still some confusing boundaries and blurry lines that need to be sorted out between departments A and B. I had a panic attack when I got home for the first time in a while, and am debating if I should try to follow up to ensure that Manager B believes me or should I just let it go be very intentional about practicing some distress tolerance skills and do my best work. I’m worried that Manager B will tell other folks their (incorrect) perspective and that it could impact my career there negatively. But since I’m prone to worry, I may just be making a mountain out of a molehill. Thoughts?

  135. Mediamaven*

    I have an employee who is on her phone texting or whatever all day. I mean all day. I mean I have never once walked out of my office and not seen her on her phone. If she makes eye contact with me she’ll put it down but then it’s back up. I don’t want to be that boss – but this is beyond excessive. How should I approach this? And her work is good but not perfect – she complains about being overwhelmed and not able to make all of her goals but legitimately she is on her phone all day so maybe that’s why.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Tie it to her being overwhelmed and not meeting all her goals: “You’ve mentioned that you’re overwhelmed and aren’t on track to hit all your goals. I’ve noticed that you’re often on your cell phone when I pass by. It’s of course fine to attend to occasional personal things during the day, but it should be truly occasional. I’d like you to scale that back, and I think it will help with the other issues.”

    2. Rebecca*

      As this person’s coworker, I wish you as a manager would say something to her. It’s one thing if she’s taking a few minutes here and there because her work is handled, and she’s just gathering her thoughts to move on to tackle the next project, but I work with this person. It’s frustrating to me when I have to pick up slack, or have way too much to do and could use some help, and then someone is always saying how busy and overwhelmed they are, and in reality, if they’d put the phone down and work more than 15 minutes per hour it would help their situation quite a bit. There, rant over.

      Maybe the next time she gives the “overwhelmed” excuse about not meeting her goals, ask her what is happening that keeps her from meeting them. Let her tell you why she thinks she’s not meeting them, and then tell her what you’ve observed, as in, maybe you’re not aware of it but you seem to be focused on your phone a lot, is there something going on that you need to take time off to handle? That’s if you want to be gentle about it. My grumpy side would say, just tell her, put the phone aside, check social media, calls, and texts during break time and lunch time, and do your work!

      I’d love to see an update on this. We have a handful of phone people here, and it really needs to be addressed before management brings down the hammer on all of us.

      1. Mediamaven*

        Very good thoughts – a lot of times we think people don’t notice their peers lack of productivity or other issues but we’re always wrong! Reminds me that it’s important to more than just me to address it. Will post and update if anything remarkable comes from it.

    4. Mazzy*

      Can I just commiserate? I’ve had this conversation before and explained how it’s only very recently that this was considered normal. I explain that this is just the 2019 version of pulling out a newspaper or magazine and spreading it out over your typewriter and lighting a cigarette. I think that we get confused because phones are small and look professional, but there is nothing professional about ready whole news articles or watching TV during the day!

  136. Bummed*

    How do you handle a job offer when you like the work and the people (at least in theory), but the salary/benefits are disappointing and not negotiable? I’m in a situation where I did the polite back-and-forth negotiation and they categorically (though very politely) shot down my attempts to up the salary and benefits. I am switching fields and acknowledge that a pay cut is par for the course, but the company was unable to come up at all and it is a very significant drop from what I make now. I still want the job, but can’t help feeling snubbed and that I’d be showing up on the first day with a chip on my shoulder. Has anyone experienced this?

    1. new kid*

      Are they disappointing only in comparison to your current comp package, or for the field as well? If it’s under market for the field, I’d pass honestly. A company that underpays from the start is not going to ‘make you whole’ sometime down the line.

      Also, even if it’s just that the field itself is lower paying – be really honest with yourself about what that pay cut means for you. I took a significant pay cut for a ‘dream job’ once and looking back was incredibly naive about how much money it really was for me. I’m back in an appropriately compensated role now but definitely not at that company. Lesson learned.

    2. House Tyrell*

      Honestly I’d pass. You can make friends at most offices, but you NEED a good salary and benefits or else you’ll burnout faster. Plus bills have to be paid and a “significant drop” isn’t worth probably liking the work and people. If you’re employed now then I’d hold out until you find something with better pay (and if the field is just generally low paying then evaluate why you wan’t the leave, why this field, and what the benefits of the change would be.)

    3. MissGirl*

      Echoing what others have said about if this salary par for the field and whether it makes sense to change.

      But for your second point, don’t take this personally. They offered you a salary, and you decide if the job is worth it or not. Why would you feel snubbed over a business negotiation? I had a similar situation this week. I tried to negotiate, but they explained all offers are final and they are confident the salary is competitive. I will now weigh if I want the job at that salary.

  137. Falalalah*

    My personal savings got shriveled up after helping my parents with medical issues and I forced myself to accept a new position that comes with a longer commute and lower pay than my previous job. It was the only offer I received and it was nice to stop job hunting. But after two weeks in, it’s just not working for me. I’m still in my probation period, so should I just cut my losses and leave now? Or should I stick with it, send out job apps, and wait until another offer materializes?

    1. House Tyrell*

      Stick with it to get paid, do a good job while you’re there, and keep applying. It’ll be much less stressful looking for jobs while you get paid. And you could end up liking it after awhile, the first two weeks are almost always awkward. I’m in a similar spot, took a job I didn’t like a ton because I needed money and it was my only offer. I’m still job hunting and it’s been 3 months so I’m glad I’ve stuck with it even with if it’s not the best and has a pretty annoying commute.

    2. Mazzy*

      I think it depends on why it is not working. If it’s very bad, I’d quit. But if it’s just slightly different than you thought it would be and little things are irking you, I’d stick with it.

  138. rubyrose*

    I’m looking for another position. I am a tech worker. I’m so fed up with this process.

    I’m getting emails and phone calls on warehouse positions! I’m not talking working in the office, but working the warehouse floor. There is NOTHING in my resume that would indicate I have worked in that environment at any time, in any capacity.

    But the real reason for this rant is about two experiences over the last two weeks. I talk to the recruiter and agree to send an updated resume. There is no indication that it is critical for it to be sent immediately, so I might decide to send in in a few hours, when I have the time.

    If I don’t get it sent within half an hour, the recruiter is calling me, asking me where the resume is! If I don’t answer (which I probably won’t, since I am working), the person leaves multiple messages and multiple emails. I’ve had calls as late as 10:00 pm.

    Anyone else seeing this new trend in annoying potential candidates?

    1. Jo*

      Warehouse work has a very high staff turnover, and they have to fill the gaps or it’s very bad for the company. The approach may be annoying, but it often works.

  139. Seeking Second Childhood*

    A question for scent-triggered migraineurs AND dedicated fragrance afficionados: I’m supposed to suggest my own ADA reasonable accommodations to get around someone else’s heavy cologne use trigering my migraines…and I’m looking for suggestions.
    Earlier in the summer I was delighted that my cologne-drenched co-worker was willing to cut back on his cologne after I initiated one Alison’s “awkward conversations”. My delight was premature. He started wearing it again last week — enough that I can smell him 4 cubicles away, enough that I’m on my 3rd migraine aura this week. I asked him about it twice — and he said no. I emailed HR. He went to HR. I’ve been asked not to approach him again because he feels uncomfortable. I was given an ADA accommodations form to fill out and get my doctor to approve.
    Of the ideas that came to my mind, all have drawbacks:
    – I could ask to use my former manager’s office, but the use of an office with door has all sorts of political pitfalls. Plus it is 100% internal, and florescent lights are another of my triggers. (It would suck to learn that the new LED lights are just as bad for me as old-fashioned florescent lights.)
    -I could ask permission to WFH on days when a migraine hits — but if it hits midday, I may not be able to drive home to do it. And again, I could get into office politics because there’s currently no WFH other than business travel and government-declared weather emergencies.
    -I could ask for him to be moved two cubicles down to the far far end but honestly I’m already in #1 and he’s in #4, I can’t imagine his moving to #6 would make that much of a difference.
    I already have a fan at my desk which dissipates the initial scent within a half hour.
    Got ideas for me?

      1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

        Yup, it’s in my company handbook! I have the same issue, I am so grateful for this rule. Hope it resolves easily for you!

    2. Just Elle*

      Hello fellow migraineur, I’m sorry you are dealing with this.

      I think the best policy is to pursue an entirely scent-free workplace. Not just go after this guy in particular, which is kind of singling him out and not guaranteeing someone else wont cause issues down the line. I was delighted when I started my job and found there were already signs up all around my cube area and adjacent bathroom notifying it was a scent-free area. When I moved to a new building, I had to pursue getting the scent-free-workplace set up in that area too, but honestly it was relatively painless and left me mostly out of the loop.

      Then, if your coworker continues to ignore the scent-free rules, you can go to HR and let them deal with it themselves. It basically becomes equivalent to a dress code violation at that point.

      (and doubly sorry about the flourescent lights, those are a trigger for me too and its a nightmare for working in a cubicle farm. I’ve had the best luck with bringing in my own lamp to use)

    3. CrookedLily*

      When they converted our building from fluorescent lights to LED, I thought it would be better, but it’s not.

      1. Just Elle*

        For me the flicker of dimmed LED bulbs is soooo much worse. And obviously they put every bulb in the new building on a dimmer and obviously everyone else wants them dimmed as much as possible. I can physically see the flicker and everyone else looks at me like I’m a crazy person. For me the solutions that have finally helped me get through a whole day migraine free are:
        -blue light blocking glasses that have a good shield from the top (instead of the more fashionable ones that just reflect ceiling lights right into your eyes)
        -having facilities remove the bulbs from the fixture directly over my desk, and putting a regular bulb lamp on my desk as an alternative
        -drawing a line on all the dimmers in sharpie with a note that says “do not dim below” (I worked with coworkers on this to find a compromise)
        -getting flicker free (high refresh rate) monitors with a “blue light blocking” yellowed display setting. (They’re ViewSonic brand and cheap enough from amazon that work just put them on a credit card for me)
        It’s interesting that I never needed the flicker free monitors before the led. It’s like I could handle either the flickering monitors or the led lights but both together put me over the edge.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Thanks all. I fear the scent free solution is off the table given how many months it took us to get the air freshener’s removed from the bathrooms, and this HR manager can’t even smell the vilely scented cleansers the custodians switched to… but I will try to work up the nerve.

  140. Cubicle Kid*

    Does anyone have a recommendation for asset management software?

    Right now we’re using Excel spreadsheets—but would like a cloud system that can track computer equipment we have at client sites and create/manage barcode tags. WASP AssetCloud seems to do this but is pricey. I was playing around with creating an Airtable database but that’s a bit finicky. Is there a middle ground for a small business that doesn’t need a lot of features apart from tracking/barcoding? Many of them have purchase order systems, inventory management, depreciation schedules…and are very expensive!

    1. Just an accountant doing fixed assets*

      I’ve been working with WASP on our local server, not the cloud. I like how I can sort the data into different formats for departments, locations, types of assets. However, when there was $50k difference between my source excel sheet that I used to import into WASP and WASP total assets report, I was unable to get the WASP export excel file to recognize the numbers as numbers. Therefore, running an a=a comparison to find the missing asset did not work.

      I also think I might have purchased the “older” system. I like it, but not as much as I hoped.

      1. Hamburke*

        In Excel, have you changed the cell format to general or number? I often have this issue when exporting to csv – they come over as text. If that doesn’t work, I copy and “paste special: value” in a new file (so it’s an xlsx). Lots of success with this. There was only one time this didn’t work – hard coded “$ ” so I did a find and replace for these.

        I have this problem more often with Google Sheets

  141. Cornelia St*

    I had two rounds of interviews in the same hour span and forgot to get the contact information for the first round interviewers. Should I ask my main contact (HR Director) for their emails or should I add a quick “P.S. Please send my regards to Jane and Mary!” ?

    The first round was with the other assistants (so coworkers if I were to get the position) and it was pretty casual. They left too quickly for me to ask for their contact information and I was soon pushed into the next round, with the director and manager of the department. And I completely forgot to ask for the assistants’ business cards after getting the director and manager’s cards since they both escorted me to the elevators..! Any thoughts?

    1. merp*

      I’ve done the latter, especially with longer complicated interviews where I met with lots of groups of people. Just sent a thanks to the search chair or main committee, with a sentence that also says to pass on my thanks to those I met over the course of the day. This was academic so idk if that would be weird in other contexts but I wouldn;t think so.

    2. Alianora*

      I think it’s fine if you just send one thank you note to the HR director. A few people we interviewed sent individual emails to all 12 people who interviewed them (in groups, we didn’t put them through 12 rounds) and while I don’t think anyone held it against them, it did seem like overkill.

  142. I know an MLM fraud, what can I do*

    I have a weird question. A woman I know socially is big in an MLM called Beachbody. She presents herself on social media as a professor at our local university. It makes me crazy because she is actually a non-tenure-track instructor. She is misrepresenting herself to sucker more people into her pyramid. Worst of all, she teaches in the business school. I wish I could out her anonymously, because certainly a business school would not want to be supporting an MLM, but that seems 100% petty because she isn’t scamming me. Ugh, thanks for letting me rant.

    1. Catsaber*

      First, do you know for certain that the title of “professor” is used at that school as an actual title reserved for the top, tenure-track profs, or is it just a colloquial title? I ask this because I worked at a university once that used “professor” in the casual sense, and called every instructor a “professor.” It was not an actual job title, like Professor, Associate Professor, etc. In that school, “Dr.” was reserved as the title of honor because only a few people actually had doctorates (it was a weird school). So she could be within her rights to use “professor” as a title.

      Second, most schools will make employees fill out conflict of interest/additional job forms, and it’s possible she did this and was given permission to run an MLM. Of course, she may have not informed her workplace she did, either.

      Bottom line: I don’t think she’s really committing fraud because she is indeed an instructor at the school. I get your feeling on this – I don’t like MLMs at all, and it’s definitely annoying when someone uses a title that’s not 100% accurate and it seems to inflate them. But I don’t really see anything wrong with what she’s doing, it’s just annoying.

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        I’m an adjunct and I’m “Professor Goats” to my students. While we have full professor as an actual rank. Everyone is professor here.

      2. PrettyMuchALurker*

        I’m a tenured Associate Professor with experience at several universities. In my experience, instructors at any rank are often called professor by their students which is completely appropriate. Instructors, lecturers, and adjuncts should not be referring to themselves as professors, particularly in writing. So, this woman should not be billing herself as a professor at the university or calling herself Professor X; that’s inappropriate and claiming a ran she does not hold.

    2. HR Disney Princess*

      Not sure on the way that university is structured but where I graduated from, all instructors were referred to as professors unless they held their doctorate. Then we referred to them as Dr. Teapot. It may just be how they are called there, but you would know more than I.

      I’m not a fan of MLMs but it doesn’t seem like she has misrepresented herself.

    3. LGC*

      Earlier comment got eaten, but:

      0) oh man, I’m so sorry you have to deal with that. MLMs are rough!
      1) Catsaber said what I was about to say – it sounds like she’s an adjunct professor. So while she might be embellishing the truth (many people do think that “professor” = tenured, and sadly that’s not usually the case anymore), it probably isn’t a straight up lie.
      1a) there have been a lot of articles written about the plight of adjuncts. I don’t want to assume that’s why she’s doing Beachbody, but I would not be surprised.
      2) probably the bigger issue is if she’s implying that the school endorses Beachbody. But that’s also pretty gray line – most MLM participants use their personal feeds, so she could say that she’s a professor at Local U Business School in one post and shill her overpriced shakes in another, and that wouldn’t be a clear statement that LUBS endorses Beachbody. I’d lean towards not reporting unless there’s clear evidence of a conflict of interest (like, she is recruiting students as downlines).
      3) as usual, I should share the anti MLM sites! The Dream podcast is a good place to start. Pink Truth and Poonique are also good (especially the latter, in my opinion – Elle Beau is a pretty good writer!) One of my weird hobbies is reading about MLMs, if you can’t tell.

      1. Catsaber*

        There is also a title at my current university (where we do have tenure) that is “Professor in Practice,” and it’s not a tenure-track position but it’s like an adjunct who also has full-time administrative duties. At the previous school I worked, they did not offer tenure to anyone, thus calling everyone “professor.” It can vary widely by school.

        I think you’re right that the more troubling thing is if she’s outright saying “Local U Endorses BeachBody,” or if she’s recruiting students. I might keep an eye out if she is actively recruiting students, because I think that is the worst offense – the students could feel pressured to join in order to get a good grade, and that’s wrong. But if she’s just promoting her MLM and happens to have her title/job on her social media, that’s not really a problem, as annoying as MLM promotion is.

    4. I know an MLM fraud, what can I do*

      Just to clarify— on the university website AND LinkedIn, she is a clinical instructor. She is not a professor. But I am admittedly at BEC…

      1. LGC*

        Okay, so she’s probably lying, but also you’re at BEC. I’d see how you feel about it when you’re less annoyed by her.

        (Also, if you haven’t already, unfollow her! Block her if you need to. And if she sends you any DMs that start with “Hey hun” or contain the phrase “business opportunity,” you have my permission to do whatever you need to do.)

  143. Chairman Meow*

    How does one deal psychologically with a job AND job search that is demoralizing and inspires depression? I started job hunting a year ago and have interviewed with 5 companies (4 in-person and 1 phone screen) and still don’t have an offer. I got really close to getting an offer with the most recent company I interviewed with, but they eventually gave it to someone “with more experience”. I feel like my options are starting to shrivel up (I can’t move) and have resorted to doing free, pro bono work again like when I was still in school to build up my resume.

    It’s even more frustrating to see equally (or even less) qualified people around me get jobs in less than 6 months, and I always have bend over backwards and do a bunch of free work to “prove myself” before I get a break.

    1. new kid*

      It’s a self-fulfilling circle where the more demoralized you are, the harder it is to get a job because the energy surrounding you is defeatist and tired rather than excited and engaged. I’ve been there and it really sucks. Is there any way you could take a small vacation from both your current job and the job hunt to try to regroup? Also, if you have close friends or family, have them help you with interview prep but where you’re the interviewer and they play you – hearing your strengths in that way from the people you love and trust can help remind you how much you have to offer (since job hunts are notoriously good at knocking that out of you).

      I don’t know if any of that is helpful, but I really feel for you and am wishing you good luck!!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You have to stop watching others around you and drawing conclusions about their perceived successes. Are these people around you in the same field as you and vying for the same jobs you are? Most likely they’re not, therefore they are irrelevant.

      In my line of work I can usually throw a stone and get a job. But others aren’t so lucky, they’re specialized and they have to wait until those openings come up. Then it’s not just them going after those openings.

      Choosing the person who gets the job is frigging hard too, so it’s demoralizing for you to lose out by just a little bit when it is drilled down to “this person has a couple years more experience, so we’ll go that way.” It’s really not as personal as it feels to you, I swear it.

      I was once bypassed because someone had more education than I do. They then called me back two weeks later wanting to know if I was still available. I was just finishing up a temp job and yeah, I was still available. I stayed there for over a decade and became what I am today. So please, know there’s light at the end of the tunnel but sometimes that tunnel is helluva long mofo and full of rocks to climb over sometimes. You will get there. I’m sorry you’re going through this, so all I can offer is support and reminding you that you’re not alone and this is not the end-game, this is not where you are left to just suffer forever. It feels like forever but it’s not.

      Your options in the moment may shrivel up but you don’t know what’s up next. You don’t know when someone’s going to give up their job and that position will come open, so that you can then pounce on it and make it yours. Everything is timing and the universe is in charge of that, not us.

    3. Chairman Meow*

      Thank you for the compassionate reality checks to my whiny rant. I was in a bad place mentally. I will persevere! And probably come back to read these comments periodically to keep myself sane. <3

  144. Jane*

    I need help with something. We are a small office of 7 with a HQ in Europe, and originally I took my job excited for all of the Marketing and Sales things on my job description, but I I am noticing more and more I am taking on office duties, and my boss is assigning me more and more admin work because I do not think she wants to do it. To be honest, she barely does anything and it is really frusturating. The tough thing is that these extra tasks only take about 15% of my time, but I am already the busiest one in the office, the least paid, and also the youngest so I feel I have a target on my back. I dont know what to do, I like my job a lot but I hate that I get downpoured with things like setting up our office phones with Spectrum. please help!!

    1. Allypopx*

      Have you talked to your boss about your workload? Or tried saying a soft no – aka “Oh I’m not really sure I have time for that right now”. Once you get known for taking on more and more things without question, more things tend to fall on you. It’s perfectly fine to say “I can get to that by Friday, but unfortunately I’m swamped until then” or “I’m not sure I can help with that right now, unless it’s okay for x priority to go on the backburner for the time being.” You’re a human being with limits, and that’s okay! But you need to make them known.

  145. Pennalynn Lott*

    My company rents a large space from a “hoteling” company, that also rents out smaller offices and desks. This morning, I put the tea kettle on in the shared, communal kitchen, put my [black, tiny logo’d] “The Satanic Temple” stainless steel tumbler in front of the kettle with a packaged tea bag in front of it. I ran to the bathroom while the water was heating and came back to. . . a missing tumbler. It was super early in the morning and there were only a half dozen people on the floor. I walked around noting who was present, then reported the theft to the hoteling staff. When I went back to the kitchen (with a spare tumbler) I saw my “stolen” tumbler IN THE TRASH.

    How flipping childish do you have to be to throw someone’s personal item away because an inanimate object hurt your feelings???

    There are cameras in the kitchen and I’m waiting to hear back from the hoteling staff if the snowflake was caught acting like an infant.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I had to deal with this childish nonsense before and lecturing full grown adults about how you keep your hands off other people’s stuff was not my favorite thing but it happened. Thankfully it wasn’t based on discrimination though, it was just some chuckleheads thinking a “joke” was putting someone’s boots in the trash and watch them freak out over where they were because boots aren’t cheap. They were still going to be punished because it’s bullying behavior and also theft. Even if you just throw it away, you still stole it first.

      I’m glad they have cameras and catch this brat. I hope that they’re punished properly.

      If you see something you don’t like or agree with, you just make a mental note and move on. It’s really not that hard to resit the urge to throw someone’s cup in the trash. They’d lose their minds if they left their cup in the trash because it had a bible verse or something on it that didn’t sit well with them.

      If it’s truly an inappropriate thing to have at work, like if someone had a cup depicting racism or nudity out and about, then the most you should do is alert HR so they can fix that and the person would be told to never bring that to work with them again. But when it’s just religious or politically based, you just have to be an adult and remember we all have different opinions.

    2. Anon9*

      Are you sure the motivating factor was the “Satanic Temple” bit? Is this based on who was there? There is nothing indicating it was based on that, although a possibility. It could also have just looked like an abandoned tumbler to someone (we have some neat freaks in the office that throw out silverware that hasn’t been washed the next day.)

      Still crappy to throw out a perfectly good tumbler. They could have at least put it in the sink with a passive aggressive note or, even better yet, minded their own business.

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        My tumbler was in front of the tea kettle, with an unopened packet of tea in front of the mug (leaning on it, IIRC), and the tea kettle was coming up to boil. On no planet in the universe could that be interpreted as “abandoned mug.”

        And, yes, it was 100% about “The Satanic Temple”. Dude even said so when the hoteling office management people confronted him about it (someone had driven over from their corporate office for that express purpose). He said he couldn’t pour his coffee or be expected to work near such evil. ::massive eye roll::

      2. LilySparrow*

        Tumbler, shmumbler. Nobody puts a kettle on to boil and “abandons” an open tea bag in front of it.

        Do you imagine that the coworker thought invisible evil spirits were making tea in the “abandoned” tumbler?

        1. Pennalynn Lott*

          Perhaps he felt compelled to commit some violent act and needed for Satan to get behind him?

          (Hold up. Does “Satan, get behind me,” *actually* mean: “Satan, you got my back, right?”) :-D

  146. BadAtUsernames*

    I’ve been reading Ask A Manager for a while but haven’t commented before. I’d love to get advice for asking for a raise – but one that isn’t necessarily merit-based (although I’m prepared to make a good case for myself). I’m something like $15K underpaid for my position/years of experience/industry. I have 10 years of experience and I work for a small company that is dependent on contracts. I like the work, I like the company but it’s frustrating to be so underpaid. The last time I brought this up was my last performance review almost two years ago and it wasn’t well-received with clear steps for how to move forward. Our company doesn’t have pay bands, so it’s hard to tell where I fall and where I should be. I don’t really want to leave, I’d just like to be paid better. Any advice would be appreciated, thanks!

    1. Anonymous Poster*

      You need to present stats to your management about what people with similar experience are being paid. You need to show them something like, “Talking with my colleagues at X, Y, and Z companies, I found out that they’re paying people around $X. As you know, my salary is at $X-15k. What can we do to move my salary more in line with the market standard?”

      Then be quiet. Their reaction will be really telling.

      But if you’re unwilling to leave over this, be ready that you’re keeping the job with that low pay in mind as part of the whole package. If you are willing to leave, it can’t hurt to start looking now and if they come through, stop your search. If they don’t come through, at least you’re starting your search a bit early.

      Best of luck.

      1. BadAtUsernames*

        Thank you, the language suggestion is really helpful! I’d been thinking through how to frame and phrase it.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you don’t want to leave, you’re pretty limited in actual power sadly. So I’m hoping that your management team will at least get a feeling that you may leave, even if that’s not the actual truth.

      Play your cards close to your vest and don’t make it sound like “I’m looking for a new job” but just that you’ve researched the going rate for your skills/position and this is what you’ve found [that you’re underpaid] and ask if a raise is something that they’re willing to offer you.

      Just them knowing you know that they’re underpaying you may light that spark under their butt to figure it out. Since if you leave, they aren’t going to replace you for what they’re paying you now, so if they’re smart, they’re going to at least give you something in the end.

      1. BadAtUsernames*

        Thank you! I really hope that’s the case. I don’t think they’d want to lose me, so here’s hoping I get a decent bump.

  147. Potential Job Hopper*

    Regular going anon for this comment! I’ve had quite a few job changes in the past few years, and I just want to get opinions on whether it looks like I’m a job hopper. I intend to be in the new position I’m about to start for at least 3 years, but I don’t know if I’ve already screwed myself over with my last few moves.

    – I’ve been with the same organization since late 2015
    – I started out as direct service staff in a grant-funded program, had that position for a little over a year
    – I was promoted to be manager of that same grant-funded program at the beginning of 2017, had that position for about a year and a half
    – the program lost its funding in mid-2018 and shut down, so I found a very different middle management position in another branch of the same organization, have been in that position for a little over a year now
    – my current position is having a seriously awful impact on my mental health, so I just applied for and found a new position, still within the same organization, that’s not supervisory and plays to my strengths much better than my current one

    So I’ve had four positions in about four years… but they’re all within the same org, and one of the changes was positive (promotion), one was out of my control (layoff), and only this most recent one was what I think of as a typical job change. If you were a hiring manager, though, what would you think?

    1. new kid*

      I’ve always thought of job hopping as between multiple employers by definition. If I’m getting your resume, I’m seeing you’ve been with one company for 4+ years, that reads as the opposite of a job hopper. A good employee who’s early to mid-level in their career and has been with the same company for multiple years likely will have multiple roles listed, due to promotions. Even if that’s not the case for each role in your situation, it still will look like a normal (positive) resume, not any kind of red flag, imo.

      1. Anonymuss*

        Agreed – multiple jobs in one company look like promotions or broadening lateral moves (as long as they’re reasonably spaced out).

    2. CAA*

      Job hopping is not about how many positions you’ve had, it’s how many employers. You have been at the same place for 4 years, so you are not a job hopper.

    3. MoopySwarpet*

      I don’t look at (necessarily) number of positions or length of time in those, just length of time at a company. I want to have an idea of the length of your loyalty to a company.

      I wouldn’t consider the one where funding was lost and you moved to a different branch within the same company as a “layoff,” either.

      I think you’re fine.

  148. Cranky Neighbot*

    Does anyone have advice on selecting insurance at work? I’ve been receiving insurance through the ACA for several years, but I have a new job that offers benefits.

    I have a chronic health condition that is low/no-maintenance 99% of the time, but may occasionally cause some expensive issues. I know I should choose a plan with greater coverage. But yikes, I do not like the prices of those.

      1. new kid*

        It’s annoying, but to get the best answer for you you’ll probably need to do some math – see what you spent (or would have spent) on average for out of pocket health care over the last few years (or try to estimate) and then use the algorithms given for each plan to see how much you’d spend under each vs. how much they cost outright. If you’re spending under the deductible on average than it might make sense to go with the cheaper plan, especially if it allows you to also fund a pre-tax HSA. But bottom line, look at the max out of pocket for each plan and ask yourself if you could cover that if something went really wrong.

        (The way health care works in this country is really dumb!!)

    2. CatCat*

      You just have to work through the math.

      What will the cheaper plan cost you in premiums + out of pocket costs that you anticipate? What would those costs be for the more expensive plan? What would the cost be if you factor in something you don’t anticipate like a broken bone? What is your risk tolerance?

      Do you have access to any pre-tax health care savings like and FSA or an HSA? You can factor that into your calculations.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It has to be whatever is the best option at the cost you can afford in the end. Sadly that’s the sick world of choosing insurance, since the cost is so outrageous.

    4. LGC*

      Weigh the cost of the premium versus the deductible and max out of pocket costs. From what I understand, ACA compliant plans (which most employer plans are) can max out at $6,250, I think.

      The plans with lower premiums have higher deductibles and max out of pockets. (To use my employer: I think the lowest premium is $120/mo, but has the max out of pocket and a high deductible. The highest is over $300/mo – I think ~$350 – but I think it has a much lower out of pocket (like, maybe $2000 max) and more comprehensive coverage. And no deductible.)

      If this sounds like gibberish: usually they have representatives to explain the plans!

      Good luck!

    5. JessicaTate*

      Look carefully at the Out-of-Pocket Maximum. Rather than coverage alone, that can help distinguish good plans for you. Basically, if you have a really expensive issue, that Max is your worst case scenario. You hit that, and the rest of the year is “free” (essentially).

      As others say, do the math. Model out “best case” and “worst case,” including premiums, co-pays, Rx, etc.

      If they offer an High Deductible/HSA plan that has a reasonable out-of-pocket max, I’d think about that. Those plans tend to be best if you either use very little insurance or if you max it out, and they have lower premiums. But the out-of-pocket max is the key variable there. One of my friends does that; she blows through that max by April with some meds she’s on, and then coasts the rest of the year.

      1. NotMyRealName*

        Yes, this. I’m pretty healthy but just had one of those “probably nothing, but could be something” issues. I hit my OOP maximum very fast.

    6. Coverage Associate*

      In addition to the above, if there’s a key health care provider for you, get the advice of their billing people.

  149. The Lion Sleeps Tonight*

    I’m failing at my sales job.

    It’s specialized sales and I love the freedom of working from home, the occasional US travel, the 10-12 hour workday, the sales conferences across the USA and Europe, all the sales challenges and obstacles, and all the mundane Excel work.

    My boss/ownership (we are 7 people big) apparently has the monetary funds to keep me employed, but it sounds like he’s getting exasperated. The sad truth is that my sales just aren’t where they could be at 2 years on the job.

    I’ve started to seriously look for another role, but I feel lucky and experienced enough to be somewhat picky. That said, I can’t claim any big kills while I’ve been in this role and “you’re only as good as your last sale.” So I really don’t have much to brag about on my resume here.

    Any ideas?

    1. Me*

      I want to preface this by saying the intent of what follows is kind (I worry about lack of tone in text)

      Your last paragraph really jumped out at me “I’ve started to seriously look for another role, but I feel lucky and experienced enough to be somewhat picky. That said, I can’t claim any big kills while I’ve been in this role and “you’re only as good as your last sale.” So I really don’t have much to brag about on my resume here.”

      I don’t know how to process that you feel experience enough to be picky but also aren’t going to have much on the resume. Whatever it is you feel experienced in to be picky should be the skills you highlight on the resume – yes?

  150. QueenoftheCats*

    Hi, everyone! Long-time lurker, first-time commenter. I was wondering how you guys would respond to “What are you benefits expectation?” I was asked this during an interview a few weeks ago and wasn’t sure how to answer.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Truthfully. What do you expect from a company for benefits? I would go with company paid insurance [medical, dental and vision], retirement contribution matching and 3 weeks PTO for the bare minimum. Others may want short term disability options, family insurance options, more PTO or flexible schedule, etc. That’s really a personal thing about what you really are happy with and what you’d be all “LOL nope” [I’m now at the LOL nope stage for anyone who wants me to wait more than 3 months to get access to PTO].

      You could also say that it’s flexible depending on the compensation that’s also offered, if that’s true for you. I would be happy to pay 20% of my insurance premiums if necessary but it means I want more dollars thrown at me.

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      What a strange question. I guess I’d answer:

      “I’m looking for a position with full medical coverage, either an (HMO/HRA/whatever you prefer) or something equivalent. I’m also looking for a place with a 401k with a match, around the range of a 5% company match. At this point in my career I’m looking for (whatever number is appropriate for your experience and position, but 3-4 weeks, perhaps?) vacation and (2-3?) weeks sick time.

      I’m also looking for:…”

      This last part depends a lot on your situation. Maybe school costs covered for a master’s? Maybe a flex savings account for medical costs or daycare? Professional association dues covered? Some amount of PTO for use volunteering? It just really depends from there.

      Best of luck!

    3. QueenoftheCats*

      Thank you both for answering! While I hope that I never will be asked this question again, I’ll definitely utilize a variation of your scripts if it comes up. <3

  151. Anonymuss*

    My manager, whom I report directly into, has two other teams, A and B. I used to have one counterpart colleague, who has since moved on. My manager moved an employee from A to B because the employee wasn’t getting along with the A team. (Apparently it went all the way up to HR.) But the A team still needs a person, and we can’t increase our headcount, so my manager took my former colleague’s position (which we were going to hire for) and gave it back to A.

    Since B now has an extra resource, my manager pushed one of their team members onto me as my “back-up”. However, my role is very different from what they do, and the B team member doesn’t have the technical foundations to perform my function. In theory, I could train them, but I’m already working solo. It would likely increase my workload instead of easing it, especially because it’s a short-term bandaid solution, and it’s a large investment of my time and theoretically a waste in the long run.

    Has anyone dealt with this kind of situation before? I’d like to reiterate that we need to hire someone who has the qualifications that my former colleague and I were looking for. At the same time, since I know getting an additional person is a long-term thing, I want to send the message that I can deliver on my responsibilities much more efficiently than I could if I were training someone clueless to help me. What wording would you recommend using or avoiding?

    1. Mazzy*

      This is a classic situation. The more direct the better. “This will completely defeat the purpose of helping us. He does not have a, b, c skills and can’t actually do work for us. I would need to train him. Since this is the case, is there anyone else on the team with any skills in a, b, or c? If not, then I don’t have time to train or keep team B busy, I need to fill the open role in team A ASAP.”

  152. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

    I actually have an interview next week! Squee! The response to my application said they were “very impressed” which is a first for me. And a couple of days later I got an offer for a temporary job, too! So I feel slightly less pressured to get everything right OR ELSE DOOMED TO UNEMPLOYMENT on the interview.

    What is your favourite question to ask at an interview? How would you address your shortcomings? I’m on the lower end of the range of experience they requested for this job, so I feel a bit insecure about my knowledge. I don’t think I should pre-emptively say that I’m not that great, of course, but I do want to get a good idea for how much on-the-job training and development they are expecting to do. I don’t mind being thrown in at the deep end but I don’t want to find myself in a job where I screw everything up.

    1. Making Up Usernames is Fun*

      I like to ask my interviewer what they like the best about the company. I find it gives me a lot of insight into the company and also the person I’m meeting. If the answer is something like “free lunch” or “weekends”, that would give me pause. Mostly I hear the answer is “the people” and then they talk more about why the like their coworkers so much.

      Addressing shortcomings, I would phrase it as “Unfortunately, in my role I don’t have as much hands on experience with X as I like, but would love to learn more about it from others.” Also if there’s some sort of course you can take for the skill, look into that or at least mention your interest in that. People tend to like it when people admit they have room to learn but are making the effort to do so.

    2. wingmaster*

      My go-to questions:
      1. What do they like most about working at their company.
      2. The history of the position.
      3. How has their role changed since being with their company.
      4. Favorite office tradition.

      As far as shortcomings, I’ll usually address any transferable skills or job duties that will still allow me to succeed in the role and what else I have been doing to work towards getting experience in X like online courses.

    3. QueenoftheCats*

      My favorite question(s) is “What is your favorite part about working here, and what are some of the challenges you’ve faced?” I was actually complimented on asking the second question once. Lol.

    4. LilySparrow*

      Remember, they chose to call you in, so they’ve seen your resume and have an idea of your experience level. But I might also mention it as an opportunity, right when they ask what interests you about the job, or something like that: “I’m looking forward to the opportunity to get more experience with X, and I wanted to ask you what kind of training or development options there were to broaden my skills in that area.”

      Personally, I like, “What challenges do people typically run into when they’re new in this role/department/company?”

      And the Alison standard, “What would you say makes the difference between a satisfactory performer and an excellent performer in this role?”

      And, if the work is project-based, “Now that we’ve talked a bit and you know more about my background and work style, what type of projects do you think I’d be a good fit for?”

  153. One of Three*

    Job opening I’m well qualified for at company I like posted three of the exact same job description in three different cities.

    When I had first interview with them, they explained they have offices in each of the cities so post the job ad in all three, and whichever city has most qualified person will be The One.

    Last week I did a massive 5 hour interview with them, including meeting with 10 different team members over four different group meetings. So I have a good feeling from that.

    At start of this week they reposted the job for City A and City B, but not for my City. Spying on the LinkedIn posts, both job postings show less than 25 people have applied so far.

    Any advice, perspective, or co-miserating would be appreciated.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      They probably have the jobs on auto-refresh until they are officially filled, so the reposting probably doesn’t mean anything other than the final decision (if it’s even been made yet) hasn’t been flowed to the people in charge of the posts.

      Also if you just met with them last week, they might still be meeting with other candidates this week or next, given how challenging it usually is to get that big an in-person interview cycle organized with all the relevant people.

      So hopefully you’ll be hearing something positive from them in the next few weeks! Good luck!

  154. Poirot*

    How do you respond when a colleague keeps undermining you? I have a colleague who keeps belittling me in meetings, interrupting and yesterday, he actually cut me off mid-sentence and told the person I was discussing with, that he would take over this particular task to “ensure it will be done in a satisfactory manner”. Are you allowed to strangle obnoxious colleagues? How should I handle him?

    1. Me*

      You need to ask him what his deal is. “Dudebro – you do x, y, and z frequently. Yesterday you inserted yourself in a task I was handling an implied I wouldn’t do it correctly. Why are you undermining my work?”

      Document and elevate to manager as becomes necessary.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Who else was in the meeting? I’m assuming your manager wasn’t there, so personally I would approach your manager with a questioning attitude, describe what happened, and ask whether the manager shares the same concern that Rude Coworker does about that task? If the manager says no, then follow up by saying you’re a little thrown by Rude Coworker just taking over your work in that particular manner, and unless the manager has an objection, you’ll be informing Rude Coworker that you are in fact doing the task.

      I might also have a sidebar with the other person with the same intent (“I’m not sure why Rude Coworker felt the need to try to take over this task, I’m perfectly comfortable performing it as we had been discussing, but if you do have any concerns I’m open to hearing them”), which is superficially to figure out if there is a larger issue than just this one jerk, but also to subtly indicate that this is not normal nor accepted by you.

      And document every instance, and elevate as necessary. The message to Rude Coworker should be, “No one else has any concerns about my work other than you, and I will not tolerate your attempts to sideline me.”

  155. Teapot Translator*

    I’m going back to school next week (again). I didn’t want to because I was taking it easy since my last certificate (graduated in 2017), but I need to acquire specializations in my field.
    Anyone going back to school? My challenge will be to keep it all balanced (studies, work, exercise, etc.) But I may splurge and buy myself nice colour pens.

    1. Mimmy*

      I may go back in spring 2020. I already have a Masters and a graduate certificate but am considering a second Masters. When I was pursuing the graduate certificate, I wasn’t working so I could manage, although I was taking one class at a time. That’s partly why I asked upthread about note-taking. This time around, I haven’t decided if I’ll stay with my current job or quit to focus full-time on school (I did that with my first Masters) – I’d love an excuse to quit my job but I may have no choice but to stay :/ (though I am looking for new work).

      I will be very interested in hearing what others have to say. It is definitely a balancing act. I love learning but I recognize that it’s important to make time for family / friends and just relaxing.

  156. Llama Face!*

    So this may be a bit of a unicorn request but are there any AAM readers out there who are both face blind and work in executive assistant or high level admin positions?

    I am looking to advance my career but I’m concerned about managing my face blindness (partial, not profound) in the workplace. Currently I can get away with not using names a lot of the time so people don’t realize I am not 100% sure of their identity. But if I were a gatekeeper to acccess to a higher level person I’m sure it would become more of an issue. I can often learn someone once I’ve spent time with them that is consistent over a longer duration but people I interact with infrequently or who I haven’t seen in a while are hard to identify. (For me, it has more to do with matching personal data to face than not being able to see any difference in faces.)

    Any advice welcome!

    1. twig*

      I’m and admin assistant at a public university — I have 4,000 coworkers! (and that’s not even counting students)

      I’m not face blind (that I know of?) but I am TERRIBLE with names. Not just remembering new names, but using the wrong name for people (like I’ll call John’s Mike and vice versa — same with susan and linda? I don’t know why) Or I’ll just randomly forget, for the moment, the name of someone that I’ve known for decades.

      When I meet someone new, I usually let them know that I’m kind of bad with names and I might forget theirs, but I usually remember the person. Another thing that I do is that I don’t assume that someone I’ve already met a while back will necessarily know my name — I’ll kind of reintroduce myself sometimes — couching it in “i’m bad with names and we work with a ton of people, so just in case” type of language.

      I don’t know if any of that is helpful to you.

      I’ve thought it would be helpful, to me, to keep a virtual notebook (Probably one note) directory for myself with notes on the people that I regularly/semiregularly interact with (if I could include pictures –that would be even better) to keep track not just of “who to contact for which department” but also for those personal interactions with my coworkers like “Kim. B going for knee surgery on 9/10. check in and say hi the following week” or even “Joe C. is from Small Town Near My own” — but that level of note-taking feels kind of stalkery to me.

      1. Llama Face!*

        Thanks twig,
        Believe it or not I have relatives who do the notebook thing with short description – although not in a work context. If I could have a list with pics and names of people I’d be likely to encounter I’d be in faceblind heaven! I could drill on it and work on memorizing who is what face. If only that were possible!

        I have thought about making a list myself but I’m deathly afraid someone would see it and get offended by my identifier shorthand. (Like, sorry I’m not trying to be rude but you are the “stocky, brown haired, eastern european guy who clicks his tongue when speaking which means you are Bob” to me! I don’t see nuances.)

        I do let people I meet know that I’m bad with names but most people still seem to be offended easily if I forget their identity after meeting them once or twice. I’m not sure if I can solve that problem though, except doing my small bit to make sure that more people become aware of medical conditions like mine.

    2. EA in CA*

      Hi Llama Face!

      I am an Executive Assistant and I do get this problem, especially when starting a new role with a new Executive. I taught myself to always ensure that my interactions with anyone I met is warm and cordial, so it gives the person a sense of welcome. The first 6 months of a new role is just learning the ropes, so people will give you a lot of slack as you are figuring things out, like recognizing those who come by often. It is not an issue that you aren’t going to remember every person you interact with. Just try not to show that you cannot recall their name if its only the second or fourth time you see them. Also, you can always use your boss’ calendar to help identify if that person has come by the office before. Daily, I would refer to my boss’ calendar to see what appointments they have for the day, who are they meeting with and do a quick search in Outlook for additional information as to who the guest is. Most are not going to be offended if you don’t remember personal data, like they went on vacation or have two kids, or what they like in their coffee.

      1. Llama Face!*

        Thanks EA in CA,

        I try not to let people know if I can’t remember who they are but I’m envisioning an awkward scenario where someone drops by and says “Hey, let boss know I want to meet with her!” and I have no idea who they are (even though I should).

        Looking at the appointment calendar for the day and using it to help recall is great tip for the more predictable visitors!

        1. Llama Face!*

          I should clarify that in my scenario they aren’t someone with an appointment but just someone like a drive-by colleague who is asking me to pass on a message for the future.

          1. EA in CA*

            In that case, I would just apologize and let them know you can’t recall their name. We have over 250 full time staff at office location, and I’m still finding that I cannot recognize everyone even though some of the folks I talk to a lot via email or IM, even after almost 2 years of working here. I doubt people are going to be too offended by you not remembering their names.

        2. LilySparrow*

          Okay, this is sneaky but I gave legit done this: say, “Sure! Just, can I write down your phone extension so I’ll have it handy?”

          Then reverse search the phone number.

          1. Llama Face!*

            Sneaky works for me. ;) Better than having people think I’m rude or incompetent!
            Thanks, LilySparrow!

    3. Close Bracket*

      I am mildly face blind, but not an EA. It’s not something that comes up in casual conversation very often, but I just tell people that I am mildly face blind. Is disclosing something that you think could work for you?

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Some companies employee photos attached to their Skype. Are you in a position to promote that? Would you be if you got this position?

  157. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

    I love my job (at a small nonprofit), but I hAAAAaaaaaaate cold calling businesses to ask them to donate things! I procrastinate doing it until the last possible second, and I’m realizing that is not a good idea with important things like vendors for fundraising events. Any tips on cultivating this particular skill? For reference, fundraising is only part of my job so this only comes up about twice a year.

    1. Banana naan*

      I do this a lot! Here are some tips:

      Make a spreadsheet! Track: the business, the item(s) you are requesting, the name of the manager, the business address, (you’ll need this for thank yous post event) and the estimated value of the item (for your records). I like to have ten or fifteen businesses lined up before calling. It helps to have their opening times and phone numbers handy.

      Be specific: know what they can give and what you’re asking.

      Check if the business website has an online form for in-kind donation requests. You want to give them a request the way they want it. If they don’t have a form, then you call and ask whether they take donation requests, who is the right person to reach for a request, do they want a letter delivered, etc. You should have a boilerplate donation request letter or a script before you call.

      Example, “Hello, my name is Banananana Naan, and I’m calling on behalf of Save the Bananas. Do you accept donation requests? We are seeking gift certificates from local businesses for a raffle to support scholarships for young bananas.”– phone script. The donation letter should be more formal and include your mission statement, more about the event, etc.

      Start calling/emailing for requests about a month, ideally two months, before you need things. It takes a while. Sometimes you have to call back and follow up. It’s not unusual to follow up three or four times before getting something.

  158. Temp Wannabe*

    How do you choose a reputable temp agency? I’ve been in the workforce awhile but am looking to change fields.

    The last time I worked with a temp agency, I had two interviews over three years and they ignored me, except to send me an email every six months when my recruiter quit and a new one got hired. Another I had one interview and heard nothing from them ever again.

    In at least one of those cases I’d gone as far as to fill out tax forms, so they had my SS# and a photocopy of my driver’s license. It was really uncomfortable.

    Any suggestions? Thanks!

    1. Hamburke*

      I always request going into their office for a face to face interview instead of just a phone screen. You can see how professional they are and they will think of you more since they’ve met you in person. I say this but I do interview well, so it works in my favor. I was the admin assistant for a temp company when in college – people dress down for recruiter interviews but you want to dress the same as with any interview; come prepared with a copy of your resume and references and possibly work samples; take notes about your interview and ask question both about the temp company (like temp, temp to perm and direct hire stats, average time a temp stays with the agency, average length of temp placement) and potential employers – treat this like any other interview. I have asked to not be put of the roster for temp companies based on my interviews – they weren’t going to get me a job I wanted, so it saved all of our time.

  159. Banana naan*

    I currently work as a part-time salaried position at a nonprofit (been there for a year). They’re restructuring to add more to my department, and are changing my current job to be full time with more responsibilities. I’ll thrilled that I finally have the chance to go full time.

    But, when my boss was talking about the expected salary range, it’s lower than I thought it would be. She pushed that it was a greater opportunity to learn and expand my experience, but I’ll be making less per hour, working more hours with more responsibilities, and the benefits don’t change. Because this is an internal restructuring, I’ll have to reapply, but my supervisor said she would like for me to continue in the position.

    How do you negotiate salary for an internal job change when you go from part-time salaried exempt to full-time salaried? For reference, I make $1000 before taxes biweekly at 25 hr/wk, and full-time is 37.5 hr/wk. Is it reasonable to expect that my salary should scale appropriately (about $1500 biweekly full-time?) I’ve done some napkin math and research into similar salaries, and unfortunately my city doesn’t have much data for my position on glassdoor.

    1. HR Disney Princess*

      Yes, I would let them know that you can’t take a pay cut to do the same hours. They seem to be trying to spin it that you will make more money over all, but asking someone to take less per hour to do the same role, I’ve never heard of that. Caveat, I’m not from the non profit world, but still…. I’d never ask someone to take a pay cut to do the same job full time unless there was something REALLLLLLLY good in the beenfits.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I was expecting to see that benefits were suddenly offered but you say the benefits don’t change, so you’re certainly getting shorted here.

      It should scale especially since you’re increasing duties. They’re banking on you accepting their lowball offer because you’re invested in the company and the mission and yadda yadda yadda. It’s classic taking advantage of someone that some companies will try to engage in, since they think it’s going to be harder for you to just walk away than accept the peanuts they’re tossing at you.

      You negotiate the same way as if it was an outside gig. You tell them what you want and think the job is worth. Sadly you dont have the comps to fall back on here though. I would really play up the added duties and the added hours need to be compensated fairly.

      1. Banana naan*

        Thanks for the reply. When my boss called me in, she praised how I had taken on extra job opportunities and exceeded in them. I was going to ask for a quick performance review for the rest of my work, since she’s not one to review regularly, but that was before she told me about the change to full-time. Can I still ask for a performance review, even a quick and dirty one, so I can make a better case for scaling my pay?

        I’m outlining a script of what I want to say, paraphrased:

        “I would expect my job to scale based on the increase in responsibilities and hours. Right now I make $1000 before taxes biweekly at 25 hr/wk, and full-time is 37.5 hr/wk. Without a raise, I would expect to make $1500 biweekly due to the change in hours.”

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      When I went from part-time hourly to full time salaried at a nonprofit, my hourly pay went significantly down. Because hourly pay was calculated on 40 hours a week, and you were expected to work 55 or 60.

      At one point we had a department director making $14.50 an hour while most of her subordinates were making $15-$19/hour. It’s garbage.

    4. Allypopx*

      Very common in nonprofits, but no less crappy. It’s perfectly fine to say “due to the increase in responsibilities and the fact that my benefits aren’t changing, I would need to be able to expect compensation that accurately reflects my new role. I believe $x would be reasonable because of ….. ” and then outline your performance, what you’ll be taking on, your institutional knowledge, whatever makes you the best fit. Say it matter of factly. Don’t get emotional or frustrated – even though you rightly may be. Try to be as cool as possible.

      As someone who works in nonprofits, I want you to be prepared she may come back and tell you it’s simply not possible. But you shouldn’t take “experience” as a selling point any more than an artist should take “exposure”. And if it’s not possible, decide if that’s a deal breaker for you.

      1. Banana naan*

        Thanks for the helpful script. Luckily we’re a larger organization and I think there’s a squidge more room to negotiate. I’ve been looking into other options, but they’re moving fast and I’m not sure I will find something in time.

  160. Teapot Translator*

    Anyone have advice on how to be a good reference (as in how to prepare for the call)? Or links to resources? I’ve been asked to be a reference and I don’t know how to prepare!

    1. Catsaber*

      Think about what your answers would be for standard interview questions, but for the person you are referring. You might want to write out some notes beforehand, just to refresh your memory. List out their strengths and weaknesses, think about some answers to “tell me about a time when…” questions, etc. Treat it like you’re prepping for an interview for yourself.

    2. OtterB*

      Ask the person who wants you to be a reference if there is anything in particular they want you to emphasize – they are applying for a job doing a lot of X, so they’d like you to mention the X project they did for you instead of just mentioning Y and Z. They might not have anything, but it’s worth asking.

  161. Andream*

    Does anyone have any suggestions for easy listening music to stream for free at work. I have Pandora and I heart radio but am wanting some nice relaxing music. Part of the day I am covering a front desk area andits so quiet without some type of background noise.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you can’t find an easy listening station on I Heart Radio, there are a lot on Radio dot Com.

    3. Arctic*

      My favorite app is Slacker. I have a paid version (which is pretty cheap $3.99 a month) but I think there is a free version.
      It has stations for everything. And, for me, much better options than Spotify.

      1. Arctic*

        And I love their classical music options. Not a classical music expert but I like to listen to it while I work.

    4. Kathenus*

      I like AccuRadio, good selection of channels, pretty minimal commercials, can star songs and over time create your own private channel from them, can merge channels into your own mashups.

    5. Rick Tq*

      If classical music fits your definition KUSC in LA is an all-classical music station with a streaming channel. Their playlist is mostly instrumental during business hours and the announcers only discuss the music, at most you will hear about the local weather but not much else. It is non-profit so any ads are very low key.

      1. Jennifer Thneed*

        And I was going to suggest my local classical station, which also streams. KDFC in the SF Bay Area.

  162. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

    Life at Job is going great! We recently hired a new paralegal for me, and he is SO ORGANIZED and SO HELPFUL and it’s great. I’m his superior in the sense that he helps me with my work and I had a voice in the hiring process, but I don’t have the ability to, say, discipline him or approve time off (my supervisor does that).

    I am accepting any advice on the following topics:

    Managing someone in this situation, particularly boundaries in an otherwise very informal and friendly office, where I’m over him but have no direct power;
    He’s not trained as a paralegal (his background is social work), and I’m training him but I’m trying not to be too condescending/explainy/teachy? But also I genuinely am afraid of him not knowing what to do (especially because if he messes up, I’m messing up);
    Anything involving the fact that I only just turned 26 (happy birthday to me) and this is my first real job and I’m managing someone oh my God.

    1. fposte*

      Always remember that you have power that’s visible to him but not necessarily to you. You cannot disclaim this power or make it not matter.

      When you’re training somebody, it’s okay to overtly explain and teach. It’s not the end of the world to tell somebody something they already know. Organized and helpful people will ask good questions; leave plenty of time for that. You don’t have to go full medical school with “Watch one, do one, teach one” but there’s a natural progression from “See how I did this?” to “You do this one with me at your back” to “You do this one and run it by me.”

    2. MaxiesMommy*

      Are there any continuing ed classes put on by local bar office? Often lunch time brown bag seminars on topics like local rules? (Assuming you litigate). Are there classes the firm could pay for for him? Makes him feel the firm believes in his abilities, makes you more assured that he knows XYZ. I always came roaring back after a weekend seminar.

  163. Mishkasaurus*

    I am a supervisor and started in a role supervising an assistant. He was trained in a different country and wants to get his qualification accredited to practice in this country. On my first day, he asked me to complete a reference for his application for a doctorate course (how we get accredited in our country – it is academic, clinical and research). I said I did not think I could do this, but he got defensive. Since we have continued to work together, I do not think he has got the skills to do the role. As an unqualified assistant, this is fine, and education/training is part of the supervision agreement; supervisors develop assistants to get them ready to get on to the doctorate. However, he thinks he is ready to be a qualified and does not ask for advice/gets defensive why I try to offer education about theories and practice. So I am struggling to know where to pitch my supervision – at an assistant level, which he needs, but does not think he does, or as someone who is ready to be qualified, but at which he is wholly unprepared.

    Incidentally, he tends to focus supervision on his career aspirations/very expensive training/conferences he would like to attend and full research proposals which benefit him, but the service not so much.

    Does this need to go through performance management? How do you tell someone they don’t know how to do the job when they think they can?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      It sounds like you need to lay it out for him in as blunt terms as possible. If he is so out of touch as to think you would give him a reference on your first day of working with him, AND he thinks he should get all the benefits but do none of the hard foundational work, this is not some who will take gentle guidance.

      Personally I would make a table showing what the required parts or areas are to qualify for a doctorate, and where you assess his skills in those areas to be. Print it out, go over it with him – I prefer this approach because neither of you are having to make a lot of eye contact which can be tough during a hard conversation, and also it lays out the facts pretty plainly. He’ll probably disagree and that’s to be expected, but it doesn’t make him right and it doesn’t change what he will have to do to improve his skills.

      The goal of the conversation needs to be for him to realize you aren’t going to put him forward unless or until he puts in the effort to improve as an assistant first. If that’s not something he can do, then performance management is the next step unless he decides to move on.

      I do have to laugh a little at the attitude that he can just waltz in and get immediate expensive conference registrations and training and be a full part of research right off the bat. Earn it, dude.

  164. UGH non*

    I work for a large university in the US South. I was looking at our EAP page to see about taking advantage of their services, but I found that I do not qualify because I am also taking classes.

    1. Me*

      Then you probably qualify for services through the university’s wellness center for the students. Based on my interaction with our EAP, I think you have the better end of the deal in that case.

    2. PollyQ*

      That sounds odd, and it’s probably worth double-checking by asking the EAP service directly.

    3. WellRed*

      Are you a full time employee? If so, I’d think you qualified for EAP. I worked for a u and took a class here or there as part of my benes but it was part og my benefits, it didnt negate them.

  165. Work-Life Balanced*

    How do I tell a coworker I have zero interest in hearing about her wedding plans? Generally, I keep my home life pretty quiet at work, I don’t tend to talk a lot about my kids or otherwise, unless asked. And I don’t typically ask others outside of the usual “how was your weekend?” I have colleagues with whom I’m friendly, but mostly, we keep it limited to work. My days are full, and chatting about wedding plans isn’t on my schedule. This particular coworker tends to park in a cube (any listening ear) for nearly an hour.

    Moreover, I’m going through a rough time in my marriage, considering separation. It doesn’t bode well for my mental state to hear about wedding bells and honeymoon resorts. My marital status is something I haven’t shared at work and was hoping to avoid.

    I know this is an exciting time in her life and I’m happy for her, but I need work time to focus on work. How can I politely opt out of this kind of chatter?

    (For what it’s worth, I am not the only person who feels this way…)

    1. Alianora*

      When she comes into your cubicle and starts talking, can you say something like “Sorry, Alianora, I need to concentrate on my work right now. Did you have a work question?”

      I don’t think your own marital status or the fact that it’s wedding talk actually needs to come into it. Spending a whole hour talking at you while you’re trying to work is way too much, regardless of the topic.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t make it about the subject, make it about the fact she’s disrupting your work. This will save you from looking like you aren’t happy for her and more that you have other pressing work concerns to deal with.

      “I’m sorry to cut you off but I need to get back to work, so if you’d please excuse me…” and if you wear headphones or something, I would make a point to then put them back in your ears and turn away.

      I don’t want to talk to anyone for an hour about even something I’m interested in. Not when it’s eating into my work time and i have stuff to do.

  166. Poll - MS Office Suite*

    Hi Everyone,

    We’re in a conversation about skills for recruitment, promotion, etc, and I said there’s this great website with a comment section we could ask for input. So if you’re game, please let us know from the MS Office suite which programs are the most useful, and what skills within them make the most difference in general (caveat that some jobs require specialized skills, and we’re not talking about that level now) for office work in the US. I’m also interested in knowing if there are skills that you really want that don’t get used a lot but make a big difference, as well as those you want for regular use, and if all of those programs are in common use.

    Many thanks.

    1. LCL*

      Outlook, Word, Excel. And the ability to use Windows explorer and store files how and where you want them, read only vs unprotected, etc.

      1. SarahKay*

        Seconded to all the above.
        One note if you’re testing someone’s skills as part of recruitment, though – the Ms Office Suite changed its look and the location of a number of functions hugely between Office 2007 and Office 2013. If someone was working for a company that’s still running 2007 and you’re testing them on 2013/2016 (or vice versa), it’ll slow them down, possibly considerably, so probably worth taking that into consideration.
        It’s not going to be hard for them to get used to the newer version (leaving aside my frustration with the over-sized-ness of all the icons, folders, etc in 2013/2016 – grr!) but it will take longer than the usual test is likely to allow.

    2. Poppy*

      OneNote
      I use it to track all of my meetings with my manager and the action items that come out of them plus information for travel (which neighborhoods have quiet coffee shops/good restaurants/are near the highway etc)

      For a skills thing it’s perhaps not the best test – but it’s helpful to see how someone organizes themselves

      Excel is amazing – I like to see if people are resourceful enough to know how to get a question answered. (i.e. I could care less if you can run a vlookup if it’s something you need to do once a year. But I do want to know that you know how to google it and follow the instructions you find)

    3. KX*

      I am pretty impressed with what SharePoint can DO (although less impressed with the way SharePoint makes you do them), and I’ve started incorporating Microsoft Flow for automating processes. There is a lot there. It’s pretty exciting. Terrible documentation, a lot of baffling instructions, very little corporate support, very much scouring message boards to see what regular people figured out and can share, amazing results.

      Probably none of this is useful to someone without an interest in efficiency or interdepartmental cooperation. I guess this is a skill most people don’t need often, but it does make a big difference. SharePoint file sharing functionality is used quite a big at the company, and there are lots of SharePoint websites for different teams and different office groups, but I don’t know how many people are using Microsoft Flow with SharePoint lists. I would say it is not in common use in my Fairly Large Division of Big Global Company.

    4. Poll - MS Office Suite*

      Thanks, folks! Really appreciate it. The reminder that candidates may be accustomed to different versions and thus slower will also be good to share.

  167. Allypopx*

    I mostly just want to vent. I work for an organization that does public programming and we’re getting concern/cancellations from folks who don’t feel safe because of the “straight pride parade” my city agreed to allow tomorrow. I’m not looking to get into a free speech debate over whether or not it should have been permitted I’m just really, really frustrated that these jerks have created an atmosphere where parents don’t feel safe spending labor day weekend doing innocent stuff with their kids in public. I’m really angry about it. I don’t blame the parents at all and I’m helping accommodate them however I can. It just shouldn’t have to be this way.

    1. Mazzy*

      Wouldn’t you have the same logistical and crowd issues at any other large gathering or parade, though? Or are they expecting protesters and the media to show up? And why are you mentioning parents in particular? Does the parade route overlap with areas that parents/children congregate? If that is the case, that would be a legitimate issue regardless of whether you agree with the event going on (unless of course, it was a child-oriented event, such as Disney Day or something). Maybe you could reach out to the city on a “in the future, please do this differently and makes sure events like this don’t come within 10 blocks of Legoland, especially on a holiday weekend? Better yet, don’t permit them on holiday weekends.”

  168. Three Flowers*

    I’ve been low-key job hunting, mostly in NPs and higher ed, for several months with no luck. In the past couple of weeks I switched from a functional resume to chronological and suddenly got two requests for phone interviews in higher ed staff positions (!!!). I’m wondering if this is likely due to resume expectations. My career counselor had recommended a functional resume and the switch was an experiment. Anybody working in higher ed have a sense of whether I’ve stumbled into formatting my resume correctly at last or if it’s just luck?

    (Contextual info: I’m an almost-PhD in the humanities trying to relocate out of state while switching from a teaching track to research support (eg, IRB) or teaching and learning staff roles. I haven’t changed how I do cover letters. I did apply for these jobs within a week of the post date, which I haven’t always been able to do in the past.)

    1. fposte*

      Honestly, I don’t know anybody hiring who prefers a functional resume, and most people I know dislike them pretty strongly. Changing your resume format would have been the first thing I’d have advised you to do. So whether that was the cause of your better luck or not, I’d encourage you to keep things chronological.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      Chrono is going to be the most preferred I would think. I would only suggest functional if you were doing a wild swing between industries. For example, my dad was a preacher for 30 years, a functional was the only way to explain his skill sets (beyond preaching, marrying and burying people) to the lay world.

      1. Three Flowers*

        Thanks. I’m not seeking a wild swing, but I have been applying for things within higher ed that would be a significant shift in job function (e.g., from teaching/research to academic advising—a common internal move for PhDs at my university but clearly a harder sell if you’re switching institutions). Ditto some of the NP stuff—writing, for example—but that’s a slightly different case since I have pre-PhD NP background. Good to know it’s probably still best to go chronological.

    3. Little Beans*

      Yep, I’m in higher ed and strongly prefer chronological resumes. I am automatically suspicious of all functional resumes because they are usually trying to disguise a lack of relevant experience.

      1. Three Flowers*

        Thanks. It’s good to have the perspective of someone who’s in HE. I was sort of operating under the assumption that a career counselor who works with new PhDs who are leaving the professorial track would *at least* know expectation for HE, but…apparently not.

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      Further, I would take a moment to question the qualifications of your career counselor. Is this one who just works at your university or someone with actual hiring experience in your field?

      1. Three Flowers*

        Oh yeah, this is a big question. She’s someone who works at the university, although much more experienced than the average university-based career counselor… but I’ve had reservations about the quality of her advice (though she’s been very encouraging). One of the things that sucks about moving away from the professorial track is that there are a lot of well-meaning folks who’ve come out of academia throwing around advice, but that rarely includes the perspectives of people who actually hire outside academia, whom we’d have to convince that a PhD isn’t a disqualification. (Science and engineering PhDs don’t have this problem as much, but in humanities fields it’s awful.) That’s one reason I came here. sorry for the mini-rant.

  169. Not My Usual Name*

    I have recently started job searching because of some financial difficulties at my firm. A couple of companies have expressed interest in my application, but one of them is starting to concern me. 

    In their first contact with me, they emailed with a list of six questions. The first asked me to describe my experience recruiting. The second asked me to define “employee engagement.” The third asked if I had ever written employee policies, and to elaborate. The fourth was, “Based on what you already know of our organization, how would you describe our company culture? How would you add to it?”  – having no experience with the company, I had to rely on Glassdoor reviews, which were pretty terrible. The culture seems to be “we like to have fun at work, and if you don’t fit in, bye Felicia.” The fifth was the same question as the first, reworded. And the sixth asked about whether the salary range would work for me, which I actually appreciated. 

    The next step in the process was a call with the office manager. The first question she asked was one of the questions in the email questionnaire. The rest of the list of questions she read off were super-focused on culture. Not questions you typically hear in a phone screen, at least not to the point of diving into personality types. There was no discussion of work schedule, whether I had any experience in a particular technology, and barely any question about work experience. It was all about “what my vision of the ideal work culture” would be. At the end of the thirty-minute call I was told the next step was a call with the CFO the following week, and that she’d get back to me with a timeline by the end of the day.

    A week later she emailed and asked if I had time to schedule another call. I assumed this was the one with the CFO, and set up the time. Because they seem to only be available for these calls in the middle of the day, I had to again take off work to go sit in my car to take the call. When my phone rang, several minutes late, it was the same person I spoke with the on the previous call. She told me that this time the questions would be “less about the position and more about me.” And then proceeded to ask very similar questions – one exactly the same – to the call the week before, phrased slightly differently. Questions like “what is your ideal office space” and “what motivates you.” The call lasted 15 minutes, and ended with her saying that “responses would be going out around midday on the 3rd.” Um…okay. No opportunity for me to ask questions, and still nothing that would be standard in a prescreen call. 
    This company seems to be a bit of a mess. Now, the role they’re hiring for (HR-related) would hopefully be able to help get processes like these organized. But it really seems like they’re going at this completely backward and wasting candidate’s time in the process. There’s no sense in finding a magical unicorn of cultural fit if the schedule doesn’t work for the candidate. And if you’re really that hyper-focused on selling your company culture to a candidate… bring them in. Let them get a sense of your open-concept office space and super friendly people. Don’t ask them about it on the phone and hope their answers match up to what you’re looking for. No wonder they have so many culture-related negative reviews from former employees.

    Between this apparent disorganization and the feedback from Glassdoor (their CEO responded to one of the reviews and seemed very defensive), I’m inclined to self-select out of their hiring process before responses go out on Tuesday. However, I’d really hate to regret turning down potential income in the event finances continue to go south at my current company. Am I being too picky, or does this all sound like a red flag that I should be running from as quickly as possible?

    1. Runaway*

      Personally, I would run. Glassdoor hasn’t really steered me wrong, and the process of asking you the same questions in three sets feels like too much of a bad thing.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Gurl. Run. You are not being picky at all, this place sounds like a tire fire factory.

      Listen to your gut. It’s not normal to hire someone after two phone calls and nothing being discussed about your actual background or skillset. They seem to have an issue that they really don’t want to change their culture, so they need you to fit their idea of the perfect henchman for them in an HR themed suit. You don’t want to sit with these weirdos let alone work for them!

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Do you have any sense of what the job actually is? It does seem like they’re overly fixated on culture fit to the exclusion of considering whether you have other things to offer, and the culture doesn’t sound that great to begin with. I mean, that’s one way to go about hiring – make sure the person sounds like a good culture fit and then see if they’re any good at the actual job stuff. But, I think most companies do it the other way around and are probably a lot better at hiring.

      There’s no harm in waiting out the news next week, but I’m guessing you will feel relieved if you don’t get selected to go forward. And if you do, you can always turn it down later (I would, but I’d also be curious to see what happens next).

  171. Llama Face!*

    Update to my July 5 open thread question re: really nice colleague (NC) who was failing

    So, after advice from several people here on AAM, I did have a conversation with my boss about NC. I suggested that I could talk to them about their global issues with competency and then set goals for the next short period. Boss (who is very hands off) agreed and we tried that. I had a conversation with NC which seemed to go well; they recognized they were having serious issues and we talked about specific goals to meet within the timeframe and some methods or tools they could use to self-monitor.
    However…

    Any progress lasted two days and then things just went back downhill (even farther than before). My other colleagues were very frustrated at having to perpetually re-train even the basics- literally being driven to tears at least once by the amount of questions about beginner stuff- and unfortunately we just gave up on getting any substantial participation from this person.

    For a long time we weren’t able to move NC out of the position because of staffing issues and because big boss (who calls those types of shots) was unavailable. This was really hard on everyone involved since NC was stressed out and we were negatively impacted by not having a competent coworker in busy times. But after some other staffing changes we are now at last going to have a different person in that position!

    Which of course means more training work for me. *eyeroll*
    The merry-go-round starts up again!

      1. Llama Face!*

        Haha, so that’s my workplace theme song is it? I wouldn’t be all that surprised to learn my employers are secretly ACME; We do have a surplus of (figurative) falling anvils and (literal) violent characters. Lolsob

  172. Darcy F*

    I am a lurker who wanted to post a question, but kept writing a super long post as I tried to go into all the details involved. So I’ll just write a vague question and not try to justify my hard-to-believe assertion (e.g. that no other job would work).

    I have a job I love—not white-collar, no education required, very low-paying with no hope of improvement. I’ve been doing it my whole post-college life (7 years) and expect to be doing it indefinitely, even though being low income is frustrating, because I’m extremely happy doing it and it’s my (ugh, sorry) “calling.” I can’t see myself doing any other job.

    I recently realized that there’s an exception to that—a job that has a lot of the otherwise irreplaceable aspects of my current job, but has a better schedule and is a lot higher paying. It’s a specific job teaching at a specific community college. There are about 3 people who have this job at a time, with occasional turnover. The class isn’t academic (think yoga or swing dance) and I have the experience/skills to teach it, and have a similar background as the current and past teachers. It was one of the teachers who brought up that perhaps I could apply when he retires.

    However, I’m pretty sure the job requires a Master’s* and I only have a BA. (*This is something I heard a newer teacher say 5 years ago. Retiring teacher hasn’t been able to find out for sure yet, and thinks that maybe I could meet the requirements because the large amount of “yoga” experience I have would be equivalent to a Master’s, but I’m skeptical.)

    Since I started thinking about it, I’ve gone way too far down the rabbit hole of considering getting a Master’s just to be qualified for this one job. The teachers have MAs in all kinds of things so I don’t think it matters what it is; I’ve tried to figure out what subject would be easiest for me to do, or might turn out to be useful in the future.

    On a scale of one to ten, how silly is it for me to consider doing this? Even if I would be a good candidate, there’s obviously no guarantee I would ever get one of the teaching positions; and if not for this, I would never consider getting a Master’s, and would just remain at my job.

    But if this DID work out, it would (for tl;dr reasons) be an amazing solution to my conundrum, which I otherwise can’t see a way out of.

    1. Just a Guy in a Cube*

      The few times I’ve seen/been involved in hiring, it’s been “degree or equivalent work experience”, and the degree hasn’t even come up. So my advice would be not go for the masters, but do apply. But my experience isn’t in an academic setting, and I know there are jobs where degrees matter. I still wouldn’t go for the extra degree just for that, though. It’s way too much investment for no sure additional reward
      But if the current teacher says you could apply, I’d believe them.

      1. valentine*

        I always want to read what people left out.

        Have you considered work that gives you enough money to live, save, and do your calling separately? Your calling shouldn’t run you into the ground, in any sense.

        1. Darcy F*

          Yeah, I’m kind of considering that now. (I appreciate the other comments but haven’t responded because my ideas of what I want to do are changing so fast.)

          I’m a caregiver for someone who is developmentally disabled, we are very close and I consider her my sister. I always felt like I couldn’t leave my job because I wouldn’t be able to see her every day and a)I would miss her a lot, b)I am the only young person in her life who would be able to step in and advocate for her (and probably live with her) when older family members have passed away. She has no siblings, local young relatives, etc., and she can’t talk.

          I was excited about the teaching job because my “sister” goes to a lot of these classes, which are for disabled people. I’d see her regularly and be very plugged in to the DD community in general. Plus since the job has shorter and more variable hours, it would be easier to maintain a relationship with her and her family while working.

          At this point I’m realizing just how frustrating being a caregiver is, even though I’m happy spending every day with my sister–in addition to my entire monthly income being less than the average rent, the government business that funds me doesn’t do holidays or healthcare. At best, my sister’s parents will take care of her so I can have a holiday, give me money out of pocket to cover my insurance when I can’t afford it, etc., which isn’t really fair to them and there’s only so much of that they can do when they are in their 70s and supporting/caring for a disabled daughter. Sometimes I feel really jealous of holidays and raises and things like that! I haven’t allowed myself to think this because I enjoy my day-to-day job so much.

          Since the teaching job possibility was suggested, I’ve started thinking about getting a MSW as I can theoretically see myself wanting to be a social worker at some point, and I’d learn a lot of useful policy/services stuff. So that would have more potential uses than just for this one job. But I’m still really tentative.

    2. fposte*

      Hmm, interesting. These would be my questions: How much would the master’s cost, and how long would it take you to pay off the debt–even if you stayed in your current job? Are there other community colleges or similar educational structures that would have the same kind of job, and do you know if they would also require a master’s? Are any of them picky about what the master’s is in?

      I’m thinking that there’s a bigger upside to the master’s if it might open more possibility doors than just this one, but also it’s important to be realistic about how you’ll feel about it if it *doesn’t* open doors.

    3. MissBliss*

      You should apply for this job. Especially if you have the reference of the retiring instructor. You could indicate in your interview that while you don’t have plans currently, you would be open to doing the MA on your own time if it was important to the position. They may also have tuition benefits– which is a reason why to wait. I get about $3,500/year from my community college for tuition in my MA program.

  173. Bhanna*

    My boss returned from a 12 month sabbatical a few months ago. During that time they had some changes in family circumstances and they’ve come back a little ‘lights are on but no-one is home’ as regards work. They delegate almost everything (to a team already struggling with their own workloads) and a few times a week vanish early in the day without coming back. It’s more often than not that no-one has any idea where boss is. Our org structure is such that there isn’t anyone above boss as such (no grandboss) but a friendly board that are happy to let boss ‘run things’ without much oversight.

    I get on pretty well with boss but I am really starting to feel the fact that they’re delegating a huge chunk of their work to me (and the rest of the team) which is causing workload problems for me and the fact that I never know where they are/if they’re coming in today/when they’re next going to appear. The only person I can really raise this with IS boss so is there a good way to have this conversation? The rest of the team are silent grumblers so I’m on my own with this one.

  174. Mill Miker*

    I’m worried my best work accomplishments are too cynical. I’ve spent my career so far working almost exclusively on (metaphorically) putting out fires and cleaning up messes. In my previous job I had to run from emergency to emergency, fixing whatever was stoping any give project from launching on time. In the end, there’s nothing I can point at as something I accomplished, without describing the unflattering state of things when I arrived.

    There’s been too many times where I’ve been put in the situation of having to do 2 months worth of skilled work in one month using skills I didn’t have, and I got those skills and delivered.

    Even the times when I have built something truly impressive myself, a lot of what makes the work impressive was that it was done without access to the appropriate resources.

    But now I’m finding that my peers are using the initial work as leverage for better jobs, but I can’t talk about the work I did to actually get their work to work without looking like I’m not a team player. In reality, I’ve worked really hard to support the teams I’m on.

    I’ve been trying to find a new job for a while, but I’m worried the lack of “positive” work examples is holding me back. Any advice?

    1. Allypopx*

      Put a positive spin on things. You worked to streamlined processes, you handled crisis situations, you ensured project success by isolating points of bottleneck and fixing them, you found creative solutions for resource shortages…these are off the top of my head without knowing exactly what you do, but you get my point.

      My resume for one job says I “overhauled hiring processes to attract, retain, and properly utilize talent” not “these idiots had no idea what they were doing before I came in and had such bad turnover it’s a wonder the business didn’t crumble,” despite one of those statements being more factually accurate. You can go into a little more detail in an interview if it’s asked (though still I’d say “unfortunately we had to make this work with limited resources” instead of actively throwing a former employer under the bus). But so much of it is presentation, and it sounds like you do have some impressive things to put your name to.

      1. Mill Miker*

        Thanks. That’s what I’ve been trying to do, so I guess I’ll just keep working at it.

        What I actually do is software development, so It’s a lot of “I made X work” “Oh, you designed X?” “No, the designer designed it, I made it work” “So you built it?” “No, one of my colleagues built it, I made it work” “..?”

        1. Allypopx*

          That’s super frustrating! And weird, given my albeit limited experience with software design. There’s tons of in jokes about debugging and having to make software do what it’s written to do – I would expect hiring managers to get that. Keep at it. Do you know anyone who has a similar background to you? Maybe you can compare notes on how you present your experience.

        2. CAA*

          “… but I can’t talk about the work I did to actually get their work to work without looking like I’m not a team player …”

          I think you’re confused about what a team player looks like. A team player is not someone who never says a negative word. A team player is someone who can assess a situation and his contribution honestly and describe how the work he does helps his team get work done. “I joined the team in order to complete the implementation of X after it was discovered that Y was going to be a problem. I learned Z over a weekend so I could make the maximum contribution to getting this project finished as fast as possible because we had a very tight timeline.” or “I resolved problems in the interfaces between components X and Y that were caused by oversights during the design phase that weren’t caught until very late in development. I was able to do Z to get things working and keep the project on track.”

          Sell yourself as “an experienced troubleshooter who can quickly understand and resolve problems in complex systems”. This is in no way a bad thing to be, and I’ve actually made what I consider to be a pretty successful career out of that very skill.

    2. Mazzy*

      “But now I’m finding that my peers are using the initial work as leverage for better jobs, but I can’t talk about the work I did to actually get their work to work without looking like I’m not a team player. In reality, I’ve worked really hard to support the teams I’m on.”

      This hurts, this stuck out to me. First off, being a team player is not the be all and end all of a good candidate and doesn’t really matter in some roles. What matters is that you can generally get along with people and not be an a-hole on a daily basis. But I really don’t like that people are using your work to their own advantage in the way you describe. The issue seems deeper here. Are you not getting credit for the work you do? Is it that invisible?

      For what it’s worth, someone who was as “cynical” as you wrote would do great as a Business Analyst on my team, so you do have an audience by just being yourself. And I’m not just being nice, that is genuinely true. I think that if you put too much a positive spin on it and use too many buzzwords, your resume will look sanitized and read like everyone else who used those buzzwords. Resume inflation, if you will.

      Better to be yourself and stick out to the employers who want someone with your mindset, which is a rare mindset and awesome if needed.

  175. negotiating nancy*

    I interviewed for a job FOUR TIMES before they changed and reposted the position, now with radio silence!

    I had three really great interviews for a new position at an organization that I am extremely interested in. I met twice with the hiring supervisor (a C level), then with the supervisor and the CEO, and we had really good, long conversations each time. They let me know that I would very much be helping to build the position as it was brand new, and most goals and metrics would need to be developed over time. They told me the final step in the process would be to meet the rest of the leadership team, which they quickly invited me back to do.

    That last meeting/interview felt really strange; I met with the CEO, the hiring supervisor, and two other C levels. The two I hadn’t met yet asked most of the questions, and they really floored me with several questions about my experience/ability in certain areas that had never come up before in our three previous conversations (think: I was interviewing for a teapot sales role, and they asked me how much experience I had building teapots). In hindsight, I wish I had expressly asked if this was a new aspect of the position/one I hadn’t understood previously. Instead, I was thrown off and I answered their questions to the best of my ability, explaining my (limited) teapot building experience and detailing how my other experiences would translate well to that work. The vibe with the two new interviewers was much less positive and I walked out feeling confused about the position and my chances.

    The hiring supervisor responded to my thank you message and explained that with the position being new, each team has a different view of what it should be and that was making it a slower process, but she would be in touch soon with the next steps. Then, a week later, they reposted an edited version of the position, now containing more of the teapot building requirements and with less of a focus on teapot sales. I reached out to the hiring supervisor and asked if I was still being considered due to this change and, if so, that I would love to speak with her and the team more about these new focus areas and what I feel I will bring to them. No response yet.

    At this point I’m pretty sure I am not getting the job, but I am really frustrated and frankly annoyed that they brought me in 4 times and didn’t have the decency to let me know that they are going a different direction with the position. I felt like I really hit it off with the supervisor and I’m surprised that she wouldn’t take the time to fill me in, or let me down. I manage and hire in my current job and would never dream of going unresponsive with an applicant I interviewed multiple times, so I guess this has left me feeling inadequate and a bit stupid for possibly missing these signs along the way.

    Has this happened to anyone else? Is this a common practice that I just haven’t experienced before, or is this a red flag that I should just cut my losses and move on?

    1. Kathenus*

      I think being frustrated is completely understandable. If you aren’t interested any longer due to the process, that’s of course your decision. I think the hiring supervisor being open about why the process was unusual and somewhat confusing/contradictory was a good thing so you at least have some understanding of some of the reasons behind the situation.

      As far as her not getting back to you, it’s unfortunately not uncommon, although I think we all wish that communication was more consistent and timely in hiring processes. What’s really unknown by you right now is what her knowledge of/power over the timeline right now might be. She could be trying to herd all these cats to get the next steps or decisions made and not having the power to do so and is waiting to respond until she has something more definitive to say, she could be conflict-avoidant and not wanting to say you aren’t still under consideration, she could just be a slow or poor communicator or their hiring procedures might specify how/when contact is done with candidates.

      So I think you have a couple choices – you can cut your losses and move on in the sense that you no longer want the job, you can just do so mentally and if something comes of it in the future so be it but you try to let go of the anxious waiting by trying to put it out of your mind, or I’m sure other options I’m not thinking of. But what you shouldn’t do is feel inadequate or stupid – this is on them, not you. It happens sometimes with some cultures where there’s lots of voices in the job description and/or hiring process, or with new positions that are still being fleshed out as the hiring process plays out. So it is a yellow flag to me, but may or not be a red one. Best of luck getting the outcome you want on this.

      1. negotiating nancy*

        Thank you so much for your thoughtful response! The job hunt process can feel brutal at times, so I appreciate the perspective.

  176. Gene Parmesan*

    Settle a disagreement: should you give a description and details of a position in an interview at the beginning or the end?
    We’re hiring for a position and the job description isn’t really detailed, partially because the position can be tailored for the right candidate. Irregardless though, it will be heavier on logistical and admin work rather than programming. Logistics/coordination is mentioned as a job task in the posting but I don’t think we emphasized it enough. I want to make sure candidates understand this and are happy with that balance. If we describe the position and give that caveat at the beginning, candidates will be able to give more informed answers to our questions, but also might give answers we want to hear rather than being honest about desire to do behind the scenes work. We’ll probably get less filtered answers if we give that description at the end, but I still feel like that seems unnatural and a little like we’re trying to trick applicants. Thoughts?

    1. Allypopx*

      I think you want candidates to be able to answer questions about their fit for the work they’re going to be doing, and so you should provide the information at the beginning and allow them that opportunity. If your goal is get “less filtered answers”…well you ARE trying to trick them then. Or at least you’re being worryingly non-straightforward. Of course their answers will be filtered if they know what the position they’re applying for is. That’s a good thing, you want relevant answers.

      1. Gene Parmesan*

        I mostly agree. I understand my coworker’s thought – there IS a temptation to give answers that sound right (“yes, I enjoy doing logistics and event planning”) in an interview, which makes it hard to suss out people who would actually really enjoy that part of the job versus those who are willing to do it because they want to be part of the work our nonprofit does. But a good job description would normally make the duties very clear to folks, it’s just that ours isn’t as comprehensive due to how we’re hiring. Hopefully, candidates will be able to provide examples that do show their interest in doing that kind of work.

    3. Macedon*

      My philosophy is to always conduct every interview with an eye to weed out (whether by filtering or helping self-filter) the candidates who wouldn’t work out as soon as possible. In that framework, it makes sense to start with the make-or-break stuff early: what the job is like, how much you’ve budgeted as a pay range and any hard must-requirements specific to the job. Then even ask, “Is this all aligned with what you were hoping? / Does it make sense to continue this conversation? ” Because, no hard feelings, but maybe Sally doesn’t love herself a 9 to 5, and Sue’s allergic to spending more than five minutes in Excel. So you give them an out early.

  177. toxic avenger*

    I currently work on a dysfunctional team in a world-renowned and beloved Fortune 100 company. The job has seen 4 people in the last 5 years and I, like so many people before me, am at my breaking point. The work volume is too much while the nature of the work is tedious, the clients aren’t being managed well, etc. Due to the nature of my clients, I am not able to access the same opportunities and there is limited (if any) growth. I feel like this position was a huge step backwards for me, and it’s infuriating to be hindered by my client in ways no one else is. I don’t feel like I’m learning, my growth/happiness is not a priority for my manager, and they seem to expect me to fix a problem that cannot be solved by me alone. I am trying for internal roles and getting some interviews, but not having much luck (for example, my work is internal teapot creation and they want someone with external teapot creation) with reaching the offer stage.

    I am actively applying and interviewing with other companies. However, my current company’s name on my resume opens doors to other Impressive Companies and I’m terrified that my desperation to get out of this Truly Awful situation will limit my future opportunities. Teapot Creation isn’t the most lucrative of fields, but it does command higher salaries in the other Impressive Companies. Should I leave my current job now for a better environment? Or should I try to stick it out for another 6+ months to try to find something better?

    1. Turtlewings*

      I’m not sure why this is a question, tbh — you hate everything about your job’s duties, you don’t seem to like the atmosphere of the place, and it’s not doing your career any favors. GTFO. Why would you try to “stick it out”? To what end? You don’t say how long you’ve been there — is that the concern, you’ve only been there a few months and think it looks bad to leave? As long as you haven’t made a pattern of short stays, it’ll be fine. Get out asap!

      1. toxic avenger*

        I’ve been in the role for 1.5 years and, prior to that, I was a freelancer for 4 years. The other issue is that I ultimately want to become a pharmacist, but would like a high-paying gig to pay down debt while I study for my PCAT.
        The company’s name looks SO GOOD on the resume and my prior roles’ accomplishments make me somewhat impressive. It was also so hard to get into my current company. Part of me feels compelled to do one last attempt at “saving” it by asking if I can take on a new role, etc. because I don’t want to leave the company quuuuuite just yet.

        1. Turtlewings*

          The company name looking good on your resume is primarily an advantage for job hunting, right? So use it. Job hunt. It does you no good to have an awesome resume unless you use it to get a better job! If you want to pursue the chance of getting a new role within the company, sure, go for it, but also be job hunting.

  178. Out of Retail*

    So I was in retail for about a decade and now I’m in admin and marketing, which I thought would be a good fit, because I have an English degree (and what *else* are you supposed to do with that?) Turns out I HATE marketing, but I find I really like the accounting and data analysis side of things. So I’m going back to school to get an accounting degree so I can stop trying to sell things for a living (hopefully.) I was originally thinking CPA and tax preparation, but recently the concept of forensic accounting has really appealed.

    The question is- does anyone here have experience/ thoughts about working in forensic accounting? I love the idea of spending my time going through data for inconsistencies. I’m good with computers and breaking down large sets of numbers. Doing arithmetic to balance data sets is basically meditation for me. And (as a raging socialist) I love the idea of working to catch rich people doing bad things. But I hardly know anything about the field, so I don’t know if this vision of what forensic accounting would be is even remotely realistic. Am I setting myself up to be disappointed?

    1. Justme, The OG*

      No advice specifically on forensic accounting but I think it is so cool and if I had to do it all over again I would go that route.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Have you looked into the openings for forensic accounting jobs? I would be worried that you may be looking into something that’s really niche and not that in high demand, I would assume it’s really hard to break into given it’s desirability, lots of people want to catch the bad guys.

      Also think of all the security clearance you’re going to have to go through to get there, which can really box people out of jobs in my experience but that’s not saying that it’s impossible of course, people do get the jobs after all.

      Are you able to pay for the schooling without taking out loans? Entry level accounting jobs don’t pay very well and they can be really competitive. Even if you went straight to forensic accounting, it says the average ranges from 30-60k for entry level and that’s kind of scary to think about if you take on much student debt or if you have debt you’re carrying from your English degree!

      I’m only being a wet-blanket right now because of all the accounting degrees and accounting in general I’ve seen let people down. It’s not what most people think it is, the starting stages is pretty mind numbing and full of data entry and paper/file shuffling. But if you really do like it, if you really do enjoy the monotony and the routine/circular processes, then great and you should go down that path. [I sound like such a curmudgeon right now but really I’m just really pushing towards be cautious, really think about it because it’s expensive and you may need to settle for something below the forensic level, so don’t get your heart caught up in that way that you’ll be crushed if it’s not possible].

      I’m just relieved that you want to go to get a 4 year degree and then eventually go towards a CPA because I’m learning that accounting AA’s are basically the one-ply toilet paper of “marketable” degrees. You get what you pay for and it’s not much.

      [I’ve been doing accounting for almost two decades and I love it, it’s the best thing ever because I too like the monotony and procedural stuff, I like clear answers and organization of all the numbers and balancing. It sounds like you do know what you’re getting into and if you’d be happy to also just do CPA work and then have that dream and push to be a forensics, you’d be on a really solid career path]

      1. Out of Retail*

        *Thank you* for being a wet blanket! This was actually the exact sort of information I was hoping to hear. Thankfully I kinda like data entry, and even paper shuffling to an extent, so I can probably hack the entry level stuff for a while. My English degree let me down pretty badly because I didn’t have *any* plan for what I was going to do with it- I don’t want to get myself into that situation with another degree.

        I’m not planning on taking on more debt (because you’re right, I have *plenty* from my English degree). I have a pretty good (just unsatisfying) job right now, and I’m not in a hurry, so I feel like I can take classes at a rate I can afford to pay out of pocket.

        And…I may have to think about the security clearance thing (…being a registered member the DSA / on a bunch of abolition mailing lists *shouldn’t* be a problem. But it will depend on what happens in the next few years.)

        Thank you so much for your response!! I will take your advice to heart, and proceed with caution and an eye on the CPA exam. (which will take me long enough anyway that I may change my mind and just stop there!)

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You may not even need a CPA in the end. I’m not sure what they require for forensics but you only need an accounting degree to start life as a staff accountant in most places [and that’s because they like degrees, they aren’t actually required* to do accounting or else I wouldn’t be here!]

          So if you’re going to take it slow and see what it takes you, that’s the best! You may be able to find yourself a position within an accounting office or small company accounting and free yourself from the job you don’t like once you start pursing the options. If you can pull that I don’t have a degree but I’m an accounting student card out to the right person, you may be able to slip into some accounting clerk positions and get hands on experience to see how you like it.

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      I don’t have a ton of details on this, so take it for what it is, which is a sentence. One of my neighbors works for a very large bank chasing down fraud. Sometimes he has to loop in federal authorities (maybe all the time?) but sometimes it’s just a case of “yeah no, YOU bought the $500 of beer, Steve. I have footage. We will not be pursuing your fraud claim.” Whether he has an accounting degree or what his educational/occupational background is, I can’t say. But some of his stories are fascinating while others are just sad.

  179. Just a Guy in a Cube*

    New-ish Lead looking for advice:
    I was a good Teapot designer, and got promoted to lead, so now I’m making sure that my team designs stuff correctly rather than doing it myself. Im finding a lot of times where I think the design’s on track, and we have just a couple issues to resolve (i.e. where does the handle go?) but then it turns out there are email chains with vendors and departments about things like size and shape of the lid, and also what they’d like to do with the tea cups (we strictly do teapots, so the answer is that you shouldn’t even have been asking about the cups).

    I’m checking in at least a couple times a week, and I always try to end the checking with something like “ok, so I think we just have these two things we need to track down, and you’re going to go to person X about the handle placement, and email me your research about the proper width of the bottom” and then within a couple days, we’re embroiled in long email chains or unprepared meetings about whether the spout should be taller.

    Any advice for solving this disconnect? I suspect I need to do more asking “why did we have a disconnect” after the fact and “what do you think the next steps are” after checkins, and probably this is a clue that I’m not spending enough time with the person and project, but if anyone has scripts, alternate techniques for managing this, or other suggestions, please let me know.

    1. Mazzy*

      I would not ask to be CC’d on emails, nor would I create a template with every possible variation so they have to fill them out, to avoid every possible error that has ever occurred. What you described falls into the category of “it comes with experience.” I think it’s totally fine and in your scope of responsibility to call people in on one-on-ones and ask flat-out why something wasn’t general knowledge and explain why that is a problem, and ask them how they think this could be prevented.

      I’d say something like “on the ABC project, we almost dyed every pot purple like we usually do, because it wasn’t documented that they wanted half blue. I called Mr. Smith at ABC about something else, and he asked me if that was fine, and I had to admit I never heard they wanted half blue. Then I find out there was an email about it, but it isn’t documented in the customer file or in the final work order we sent to the factory. This could have wasted alot of money and made some people angry. How can we prevent this in the future without me looking at every single thing that happens?”

        1. narwhal of a tale*

          ALRIGHTY! I lug a 15″ MacBook Pro to and from work, so I am all about #backpacklife.
          – Current bag is Caraa’s STUDIO BAG LARGE as it doubles as both a professional backpack and a gym bag.
          – Before I switched to Caraa, I used a Tumi Carson Backpack (from their Voyageur collection).

          I’m a big fan of Lo & Son’s and am eyeballing The Rowledge. However, I’m not sure I can justify purchasing another work appropriate backpack when the Tumi can accommodate both 15″ work laptop and personal 13″ one just fine and dandy.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      No suggestions, but as someone whose backpack bit the dust and is using a conference freebie, this speaks to me on a spiritual level.

    3. Mid*

      I LOVE PixieMood! Vegan leather, around ~$100-200, and their stuff lasts for ages. Mine have survived Midwest winters, and daily bus/train commutes with a large computer.

    4. MommaCat*

      Timbuk2 has awesome bags! Mine has lasted 4 years so far, and still looks new, even with my abuse.

  181. Mid*

    I’m not sure if this is the right thread, but…
    I got a job! A full-time, permanent, salaried, benefited position! In my industry! At a firm I love! In a great location!
    My commute is going from 1hr+ driving to 15 minutes on public transit. The pay is $15k more than I’m currently making as a temp. Between paid holidays and vacation and sick days, I get more than a month of PTO per year! (Yay US anti-vacation-culture) They do a 10% contribution into the SEP (not match, just a straight contribution!) I get health insurance that isn’t my parents’! They have healthy, reasonable working hours! They close early most Fridays to enjoy the outdoors! I can wear jeans on non-client days! They don’t care about my nose piercings and they don’t care about weird hair styles!

    I think I’m dreaming honestly. I know no job is perfect, but this seems like as close to perfection as possible. There will be so much to learn and so much room to grow in this new place, all my coworkers seem amazing, the benefits are above average for an entry level position, they might pay my tuition if I decide to go back to school…everything. They even offered me the top of the posted salary range! Which was $10k more than I was hoping for, so I didn’t even negotiate it. I’m so, so happy.

    Also, I’m the one who posted on the free-for-all-thread about leaving my abusive ex and trying to get an apartment ASAP. This job solves that problem! I got a signing bonus that is more than enough for a new apartment, and I’m looking at places this weekend!! I’m also in the process of taking legal action to ensure my ex cannot come back into my life. In short, everything is finally working out!!!!

    So, for anyone else in a bad situation, whether personally or other, keep your head up. Things will work out. I went from being an underemployed, scared, trapped person, to a salaried, possibly overpaid, free, safe person in a matter of weeks.

    4. NoLongerYoung*

      late to say this – but this is a fabulous update. Have read your previous weekend comment and so glad you have such a positive outcome!

    5. Observer*

      Lovely update. But please don’t think of yourself as over-paid. They offered you the salary for a reason. And the reason was NOT “we want to waste money on people who won’t bring commensurate value.”

      Be the best employee you can be (within reason) and be sure that they have reason to believe you are worht the salary they are PAYING you.

  182. That animal shirt person*

    I’m wondering about the line between “quirky” and “people don’t take you seriously” for clothes. I’m a woman but I tend to wear clothes that are more menswear, and in my last office (business casual) the office was mainly women and tending toward business (no jean Fridays :( ) so I tried to be more conservative- occasionally I’d wear a short sleeve button up shirt with a tiny print (think, rabbits but from far away they just look like dots). My most recent job was on the more casual side with some of my male coworkers wearing polo shirts, so I expanded my print selection of short sleeved collared shirts to include larger, more obvious prints (like..jellyfish, or whales). Pretty quickly it became my “thing” at work that people would comment on. That kind of thing annoys me on principle just because people who don’t know me very well have this “thing” that they “know” about me that has nothing to do with my professional reputation, but I was just wondering…would it make people take me less seriously, or is it pretty much fine? I feel like I don’t see a ton of people who wear menswear sporting these shirts regularly, but if I was wearing a dress with jellyfish on it or something, I’d be fine? I guess it depends on the office but if other people would like to weigh in I’d appreciate it!

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      IMO, I think it’s the pattern on the shirt not the type of shirt. If you are the person who wears the fun patterned shirt then that’s part of who you are. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. You’d be the fun patterned dress person if you wore it as a dress. Kind of part and parcel for wearing more quirky things. Own it. Be the amazing professional who wears quirky things. But know YMMV at some places and with some people.

    2. Auddish*

      I personally think it’s fine. I like seeing that one person wearing something FUN in an otherwise beige business environment. It sounds like you might be uncomfortable with the attention though, and you might want to consider scaling it back so you feel like your professional attributes are being paid more attention to than your printed shirts?

    3. Catsaber*

      I think a shirt with a fun print, if worn occasionally, would be fine (even if you are known as “the shirt person”), but a jellyfish dress might be a bit much, because that’s like an entire OUTFIT. It just stands out more because it encompasses the entire lewk, as opposed to just being one element. Eventually your reputation for being a good employee should overtake your shirt reputation, but it depends on the workplace.

      I think it crosses the line into “people don’t take you seriously” if you 1) constantly wear really elaborate outfits 2) don’t back it up with being a good employee. When you’re a good employee, people will see it as a positive quirk, but when you’re a bad one, they’ll see it as a symbol of your badness.

      So I would say…rock your animal shirts every now and then, like once a week or something. Maybe save the jellyfish dress for a really casual holiday week. Also you could put a cardigan on top of the dress to tone down its fierceness, if you so desired.

      P.S. I have a dress with cats eating pizza and tacos that I’ve been wanting to wear, but I’ve been having the same thoughts!

      1. Catsaber*

        P.P.S. as your reputation as a great employee increases, so can your quirky outfits. I have been doing this with my hair. The more people get to know you, the more they will see your fun shirts in a positive light. I sported every color of the rainbow in my hair in a previous job, because everyone knew me for several years. I got a new job a couple years ago, so I went back to brown (and more toned down clothes), but I’m doing the same thing…gradually bringing in more of my personality. Alison has mentioned it here before, it’s totally fine and good to bring your personality in, but establish yourself first, and then you can ramp it up.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      I work with someone who wears a variety of fun shirts (my favorite is like your rabbit shirt, except the design is made from French bulldogs), and it has no impact on how seriously I take her.

    5. Mid*

      I had it explained to me as “If you want to dress like Penelope Garcia [character on Criminal Minds] then you have to be as amazing as Garcia,” meaning, the quirkier you want to dress, the more stellar you have to be. That said, maybe it’s just the region I live in, but animal printed shirts would barely register as quirky. (Then again, lawyers wear jeans here so my frame of reference might be off!) And while I get why it might be annoying to have A Thing, I don’t think it’s a negative thing! People who haven’t met you yet have a neutral-to-positive frame of reference for you! It’s better than being known as Rude Person or Sloppy Dressed person in the office. I don’t think that printed professional-cut shirts would hurt your professional reputation.

      1. Baru Cormorant*

        This is a great barometer. I’m wearing a dress with little birds on it, I wear it every few weeks and I think that’s how good I am at my job.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I think it also matters if the style is work appropriate, just the print is unusual. The polo shirts, button downs, and dresses sound fine and the prints are the interesting things about them.

      If the clothing itself is ultra casual (e.g. t-shirts with a wacky logo in a button-down office, crazy print workout tights as pants, strapless maxi dresses in jersey knit with a tropical print), that might cause people to not take you seriously despite your work efforts. Same logo as a small patch on a polo shirt? No issues. Crazy print on an A-line or pencil skirt? Fine. Tropical print structured dress? Cool!

  183. Bigglesworth*

    School/Program Recommendations –

    I am wrapped up my final year in law school (hallelujah!). Through a series of unforeseen events by me, I’ve discovered that I enjoy tax law. Right now, I am looking at tax law LLM programs with a fellow tax geek at my school and am trying to figure out which programs to apply to. Georgetown is obvious, but there are some others that I’m not sure how they rank or what they looks for. Does anyone’s here who does tax law have any recommendations or advice as to what questions to ask admissions staff?

      1. Bigglesworth*

        I’m sure it is cheaper ($60k+ a year for Georgetown :/). I’ll have to look into Baltimore. Thanks for the heads up!

      1. Bigglesworth*

        I’ve heard really good things about Florida! Is it more regionally known or does it have a good reputation across the board?

        1. De Minimis*

          Across the board. I worked on the West Coast when I was in tax and my firm [a Big 4] would have one of their professors teach our training classes. I know the guy who taught our class was really well known in international tax. Amazing teacher. It’s not an easy subject but he really made it easy to understand.

          1. Bigglesworth*

            Good to know. I’ll reach to them this weekend and start that conversation. Florida has continue to pop up wherever I look, but I found it strange since they hadn’t been on my radar before. I don’t intend on living in Florida (more of a cold-weather/no humidity person myself) and I was concerned that a Florida degree would mean I would be geographically stuck after graduation.

    3. Mid*

      University of Denver has a great reputation in the CO area, though I don’t know outside of the region (and they have pretty great financial aid)

      1. Bigglesworth*

        I was actually looking at DU! They also offer their program online, so I wouldn’t necessarily have to move from where I’m currently living (DMV area).

    4. Auntie Social*

      UCLA has a very highly regarded LLM program. Plus, there are worse places to live than LA/Westwood! My husband’s old partner graduated from there–he was just whip-smart, and seemed to always be one step ahead of the rest of the room.

  184. Auddish*

    I put in my two weeks at my job with no backup plan yesterday!

    I had been feeling dissatisfied in my role for a while. I talked to my manager (and grand-manager, and department head) about my feelings and about wanting to move on or to another position within the company. This is a great place to work – great benefits! a nice gym! good pay! – and I don’t have any major issues with the company, but I am way out of my element and I’m drained by the role to the point where I get home exhausted every day. The last straw for me was going over a list of knowledge and skills that we’re expected to gain in this position in order to move on and be promoted in a few years, and just thinking “I’m never going to be the kind of worker that they need in this role.”

    One major issues for me personally is the expectation that going into the second audit stage of our work, everything should be “perfect” and there should be no errors caught by the second auditor. In my previous roles, the second auditor was there in order to double check and catch any mistakes, because mistakes were expected here and there (we’re human!). I’m only in my first year in the role, and still in learning-mode, and it felt like mistakes that I made that were caught during the second audit stage (aka never made it to the client) were “haunting” me six months down the line when they were brought up on my skills assessment. The letter a few weeks ago about a manager who berated and ridiculed employees for making simple mistakes like typos could have been written about a manager here, who terrorizes their reports for making normal, newbie mistakes (none of the other managers are quite that bad.)

    There’s also a certain amount of “engagement” expected out of people in my role that I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to achieve – given that I’ve been busting my butt trying to stay interested by attending onsite and off-site sessions, volunteering to make a technical presentation to my coworkers, and offering to help second audit other people’s work whenever possible. It wasn’t enough for some reason, and I didn’t get a point for engagement in my review.

    Finally, during my review, an incident was mentioned that happened a few weeks ago. I’ve been going through a particularly rough patch in my long-term relationship with my SO over August. On Thursday afternoon, I was invited to a meeting to discuss a client on Friday at 8:30am. When I arrived on Friday morning, I’d had a terrible morning due to the situation at home, my nerves were shot, and I was on the verge of tears. I asked the supervisor on the case if I could skip the meeting (it was mainly going to be a “listen and learn” meeting for me anyways, and I wouldn’t be contributing to it) because I had had a rough morning and emotionally struggling, and she said “Yes, that’s fine. You don’t need to go.” I spent the next hour trying to keep myself from crying (unsuccessfully) at my desk. Then later, when we met privately for a one-on-one, she gave me a lecture on how I shouldn’t skip meetings because I was “disinterested” and I could have “learned a lot.” I politely reiterated that I had had a rough morning, and I was under some emotional duress, and I probably wouldn’t have learned anything due to being unfocused at the time, but I take the job seriously and it wouldn’t happen again. It turns out she also reported the incident to my manager, saying that I told her I “wasn’t good in the mornings” and that I “didn’t want to talk to people that early.” When I heard that from my manager, it was the FINAL final straw.

    I talked with my therapist about this job extensively and they’d been egging me to find something new and quit, telling me it was obviously taking a toll on my confidence both at and outside of work and warping the way that I perceive my achievements. I didn’t quite find something new before I realized I just had to get out of here, but I have some savings to survive on, and I’m loading my plate with volunteer opportunities to make the most out of my funemployment before I go back into working. Ideally I’d like to try and get a part-time job (I’m able to pay off all of my consumer debt, and my other bill payments are relatively low) and try to have some more “control” over my schedule than I do when I’m in an 8-5 day job. I have a couple of skills that I can try to monetize as a freelancer, and I’m hoping that this works out and I don’t have to go back to working full-time for a while. Wish me luck!

    1. Mazzy*

      I wish the best for you, but in the future, I don’t see this as a situation to quit without something lined up. What did they say when you told them? Did they accept it, or are you discussing it again on Tuesday. Maybe you can salvage a longer notice period?

      I think you should think about what is considered reasonable not only at your current job but also at any future job. I think you should have gone to the meeting precisely because it was a listen and learn. It is not unreasonable to expect your attendance there. It seems like you’re generally struggling with some of the high expectations. If that is the case, I think the first step would be to be honest about it and ask what the next steps are, and ask for an extended notice period. They probably would have been happy that the conversation started from you and not the other way around, and they most likely would have accommodated you.

      Best of Luck!

      1. The New Wanderer*

        It doesn’t sound like the manager or supervisor are particularly supportive of their employees, though. I agree that a listen and learn meeting that someone is specifically invited to would be good to attend if you were at work anyway, but Auddish asked for a one-time exception, supervisor agreed it wasn’t a mandatory meeting, and then not only held it against Auddish but spun it as a continuing behavioral problem and not the one-off as described.

        And having a manager continue to refer to newbie mistakes six months later while not acknowledging other efforts (the engagement stuff) has got to be demoralizing. I wouldn’t think a manager like that would be open to an earnest discussion about expectations. More likely the manager would fall into the “bring me a rock, no not that kind” camp. Conversely, though, if the newbie mistakes were brought up because they’re continuing because this is clearly a bad fit for Auddish, it might have been an opening to discuss a more gradual transition out.

        Ultimately it doesn’t sound like a good fit position or a good fit management-wise – either of those might be doable until something better came along if it were bad job fit/good manager combo, or good job fit/bad manager, but both together doesn’t sound workable. I hope your new job search goes well!

        1. Auddish*

          Thank you, you pretty much nailed it. I wasn’t repeatedly making the same mistakes (I always saved documentation and referred to it later when completing the same task) but normal, one-off mistakes for someone unfamiliar with a task to make. I’m in a highly technical role, surrounded by highly technical managers – who have all admitted they’re a “little bit crazy” about the job. Me being more of a relationship person, it’s just not a good fit for me. This is still early in my career, and I have learned a lot of valuable lessons. Hopefully the next one is how to transition out of this bad fit job gracefully.

      2. Auddish*

        Different strokes. No matter what the expectations of a job are, it’s unreasonable to expect someone to stick around if they’re unhappy. My managers are fine with my decision, and since I’d initiated the conversation beforehand they weren’t completely blindsided. Some of them even seemed impressed by my guts, and I was complimented on trying to handle my dissatisfaction maturely. I did what was right by me.

        Today my manager requested that I give them some flexibility with my ending date, and offered a part-time schedule while I transition out. I still have a fondness for the company (it’s a great place!) and I’ll be discussing it further on Tuesday. I still feel great about my decision.

      3. Observer*

        Wait – the manager told them it was ok and then berated them? That’s ridiculous. And to LIE about what they said is even more nuts. And that’s on top of what New Wanderer pointed out.

        The problem in this case is that Auddish was expected to get it together and attend the meeting despite the issues at home. The problem is that they were told one thing (“it’s ok, you don’t have to go”) and then be berated for taking that seriously for something they didn’t say and ALSO having the incident being mis-reported. If that’s typical of the general behavior, I can see why it would reach a point of no return.

        1. Auddish*

          Thank you. I’ve never been in an environment where one-off mistakes (that are instantly rectified, and not repeated) are addressed as ongoing performance issues, or polite, one-time requests to skip a meeting are reported up as problematic. I’ve spoken to other friends who are in similar, high-performing environments and been told this is out of the ordinary, especially for newer employees. When I was interviewing I was also told that the department expects new employees to make mistakes while learning the role, but in practice it seems like that’s not the case.

          To me, this is a case of “it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” Focusing on a culture of perfectionism has clearly had benefits for this department (although the recent turnover they’ve had probably indicates that they need to change something). It’s just not something I personally fit into well, and I would rather move on than continuing to try and conform at the risk of letting my mental health suffer.

    2. relatively recent hire*

      I did this two weeks ago (so my last day was Friday), good luck! I think if, to you, the situation was so bad that it didn’t give you enough space to think about other options, and you feel like you can swing it, then it’s absolutely a fine decision! It’s risky, but as long as you calculate the risk it can be worth taking. It sounds like this job has been really tough for you (and to be told you can skip a meeting and then get criticized for it? That’s so frustrating!). After I gave my notice I definitely felt an upswing in my mood and self-confidence just knowing that I wouldn’t have to deal with all the crappy things that would be coming down the pipeline. One thing I did that was helpful was be honest with everyone I know about my situation- former coworkers, current coworkers (I got along well with a lot of my coworkers at this job), friends, etc. Partially because it was nice to hear “wow that sounds like it was crappy good job getting out!” from people, and also because then people were suggesting jobs for me and offering to put me in touch with people in their network. I’m along in a couple of searches thanks to two former coworkers!

      1. Auddish*

        Thanks. I’ve had a similar experience to you, where once I quit I’ve received a lot of support and recommendations for my next role. Good luck to you too!

  185. Trying to be somewhat anonymous...*

    I’m the person who has already received an accommodation for work, with a specific location in the cubicle farm and been working on a second one for a newer disability.

    Now they’ve changed things in the office such that 3rd issue is triggered the minute I walk in the door.

    I’m now that grouchy person walking around with a massive headache all day due to this change and I’m miserable. I don’t want to BE that grouchy person that is always sick, grumpy and aggravated (and aggravating) though. This newest change was done in such a way as there don’t seem to be any available accommodations. Work from home is not an option, and new jobs are so far and few here in this rural area, unless I want minimum wage work.

    How do I keep my spirits up, and not be Grumpy Gus when I am so miserable?

    1. valentine*

      Asking your body to ignore various kinds of pain isn’t sustainable. It’ll wear you down faster than the environment already is.

      Are there no available accommodations or none you think they’ll implement? For example, they changed the lighting to non-dimmable interrogation level and you don’t think they’ll give you an office where you can keep the lights off and have a lamp. In that case, making your cubicle a booth might work. Is there literally no other non-bathroom, non-closet space in the building you could be?

      1. Trying to be somewhat anonymous...*

        You’re right, pain is extremely hard to ignore. I was so frustrated by the end of last Friday with my headache and dreaded coming in to work all weekend.

        I’m working with an agency to help figure out accommodations for that second issue, and with this one I might need to ask for them to help with that, too. There is no where to change to either, as this is a building wide “update.”

        I’ll need to look to see about how to make the cubicle a booth type scenario. Might be something to discuss when I meet with the assistive tech person next time, as that would also help with what I’ve already been working on as well. Thanks!

  186. Corp Comm*

    Does anyone have recommendations for a speech writing workshop, course or conference with practical lessons for corporate communications professionals? I write scripts for my company’s investor calls on occasion, and I’ve been given the opportunity to get some formal training (but not a full college course). So far I’ve only been able to find a couple of fairly expensive workshops in Washington, D.C., that seem targeted (as you might expect) to political speech writers.

  187. narwhal of a tale*

    Has anyone transitioned from being a Marketing Manager to a Project Manager? I’m being considered for a Marketing Project Manager position and, while I’m excited by the importance the role has in this particular department, my past experience have been focused on the product management side.

  188. Lurker*

    I’m a lurker and late to the party, but I just have to vent. I am 7 months into a job and I am really unhappy at it. When I applied at the company it was for a senior role in a brand new eLearning department. The position was offered to me and then they retracted it a month later. The reasoning was because I didn’t have management experience, even though we discussed that many times during my interview and they assured me it didn’t matter.

    Well OK, sometimes employers reevaluate the needs of a role during the process. And they were so apologetic and I really loved the company culture that I genuinely believed it was a genuine mistake and they didn’t do this sort of thing often. So when I saw a junior position, I contacted them back and asked if they would consider me for that postion. They basically hired me on the spot for that one. They removed the “junior” from the title as a courtesy because they recognized I am at a much higher level and we agreed to re-negotiate my salary at the six month mark.

    In the time that I have been there, they started reorganizing the training and eLearning departments and opened new roles for Instructional Designers and Program Managers. Not once were these positions opened to me. (I asked). Even though I am litterly the only person in the whole company with Instructional Design experience. I expressed concern and was basically pacified that we could reevaluate my title and salary. But now it has come time to do that and I’ve learned that they will not change my title because suddenly I am considered an “entry level” employee. Nevermind that if that were true, they never would have even interviewed me for the original Senior position. And it’s no where near true. I have nearly 15 years of experience in this field and this job was a step down from my last job. (I got laid off from that one, unfortunately). They are supposedly giving me a raise, but it’s been implied that they believe the number they are offering is industry standard for my level of experience, when in reality it’s at least $10k lower than the starting salary in this field. And they’ve pushed back my review date three times now.

    In addition, my manager made a comment to me about wanting me to get some certifications in order to justify getting the higher salary and title and that’s when I realized that none of them have paid the slightest attention to my job history. I have 8 different certifications in this field, including Master Trainer certification from one of the most reconized companies in the industry. They are constantly overlooking what my skills and abilities are and I have to remind them all the time. The other day one of the people who interviewed me was surprised when I said “don’t forget I used to do XYZ”, as if we hadn’t talked about it extensively during the interview process.

    On top of all of that, they are not even utilizing my skills appropriately. One of the reasons they hired me was because of how well I translate complex information into easily understanding training. I use a lot of graphic design in my work and I am extremely good at it. It started off strong but over time the deadlines I have to do work keep getting shorter and shorter to the point where I literally do not have time to do the things they hired me for. Deadlines are mostly inflexible and I either do the most rudimentary training or miss them. Most of it is text based and doesn’t incorporate graphic elements or instructional design methodology at all. And when I express how concerned I am about this, I am told that I can do those things if I want to but they don’t seem to understand that I don’t have time to do them, no matter how many times I say it. To make matters worse, recently they seem to believe my productivity is low, though I am executing things at a far greater speed than industry standard.

    In addition, my manager has started to say things like “don’t panic” and “I don’t want you to get overwhelmed” when I push back on timelines. I am not panicing or overwhelmed. I am telling them that what they are asking me to do is not possible or that I don’t have the opportunity to do what I was hired for. Those are two different things.

    And the worst part, I am starting to feel like the company culture is all a facade. They take great pride in it and constantly talk about their core values, but I don’t see them living by it. All of the stuff I mentioned in the beginning is a good example of that, but in addition, there is a pervasive sexism that they don’t even seem to realize they have. I see them routinely overlook women and treat them differently. The fact that they believe I am an entry level employee is evidence of that. They make sexist comments and one manager even calls me “Miss MyFirstName” all the time.

    Culture wise, people are always secretly gossiping about how unhappy they are and how completely disfunctional executive management is. The place is an absolute mess and they have absolutely no trust in their employees. And everyone acts like it’s this magical, wonderful family. And to be honest, I’ve felt like that at times myself. I get why. There’s something about the people. They know how to make you feel good. But I am starting to feel like it’s completely phony. They say they care about their employees but don’t do the things to prove it. In a way, it feels rather cult-like.

    I could go on and on. It’s eating away at me. I’m so miserable and I thought I would be happy here. I’m sorry for ranting. I just needed to get it off my chest. I feel like crying.

    2. Antilles*

      That all sounds miserable. You need to be putting on running shoes and sprinting the other direction. Everything your letter screams “your company sucks and isn’t going to change”:
      1.) They retracted their initial offer. That’s not “sometimes the needs of a company change”, that’s an enormous deal; in most cases it would mean screwing over the candidate since they’ve already given notice and/or stopped other interview processes.
      2.) They didn’t offer you positions you expressed interest in, even if they suited you. In fact, it seems like you weren’t even remotely considered for the roles.
      3.) They went back on their word about giving you the chance to renegotiate title and salary at least twice if not more.
      4.) You’re paid less than entry level.
      5.) They keep pushing your review date back despite (because of?) knowing that it’ll lead to a salary review.
      6.) They don’t care about your certifications, knowledge, or experience.
      …And I’m only halfway through your post and I’m already at six major red flags, each of which could on its own justify starting a job search. That’s not even getting into the second half of the post where you get into “being set up for failure”, “toxic culture”, “pervasive sexism”, “secret gossiping”, and so forth.
      It sucks because you really wanted this company to be awesome, but you need to start looking elsewhere. Today. Like, the instant you walk in the front door of your house.

      1. Lurker*

        You’re so right. I actually spent half the day redoing my resume and writing a cover letter for a new position. I keep telling myself to give it time but I hit my breaking point this week and just can’t do it anymore. I think I needed to hear someone validate my concerns, so I appreciate it.

        I don’t think I mentioned it in my original post, but when they initially retracted the offer I was so upset and really angry about it. I was going through a layoff and knew I was about to be jobless so I continued to look for other jobs. I had 3 months of severance and it wasn’t until I was at the very end of that when I went back to this company because I needed a job. I did look past it because it had a good vibe other than that one thing during the very extensive interview process. But now that I have been there for a while, I see a lot of things that didn’t come out until I started working there.

        In the past month I’ve also heard an executive mention that they retracted an offer from a VP level person. He actually told this to everyone during a development meeting. And then in the past two weeks I have heard they are rolling back an offer given to someone who has already assumed the roll and canceling a job offer to someone who was offered it, but hasn’t had any papers signed yet. I see now that this is a regular occurance for them.

  189. VT*

    I work some place where it’s pretty laid back in conversation and swearing is not uncommon. It’s not a strict conservative office at all but we all pretty much draw the line at vulgar sexual things. I have one coworker who sometimes…blurs that line with his input to conversations. He’ll throw in some suggestive thing or an innuendo, always to get laughs. If it’s said when I’m around, I will tell him it’s too much, but others have as well so it isn’t just me. He always apologizes but he usually throws in, “you guys say way worse things than that” and he keeps on laughing. The thing is, that just isn’t true and it’s frustrating because it isn’t stopping. I’ve already asked his boss to talk to him about some other things he says (he said he will and I trust that) and I don’t want to bring them into this as well. Is there anything else I can say to him to get him to understand he should keep those thoughts out of the office?

    1. Kathenus*

      Could you have a conversation with him separately, not in the moment of these conversations/comments? Something where you can be calm and friendly, but letting him know specifically what types of comments bother you so that it’s not calling him out in the moment and in front of others but trying to address it colleague to colleague at another time? And maybe during this conversation, mention that he’s said that you (specifically and/or the group) sometimes say worse, so to please let you know if there are things that you say that bother him so that you can stop those as well? That way it’s suggesting that both of you are trying to be respectful of the others wishes as well.

    2. Observer*

      I think that if you have the right kind of relationship, you could do as Kathenaus suggests. But if not, or you do that and it doesn’t work, you should ABSOLUTELY add this to this list.

      Sexual innuendo is really a bad thing to bring in to the office – even if no one were uncomfortable with it now, it’s the kind of thing that has so much potential for trouble that it’s almost certain that you are going to run into people who are otherwise a good fit who are going to be made VERY uncomfortable with it. Better not to go there.

  190. InterimLlamaWrangler*

    I have been in an interim director position since last December. The director position was posted in October, then taken down. Posted in January, and I made it to one of the three finalists before they decided to hire no one, and asked me to stay on as interim for another six months. We are at that six months, and I have been asked to stay on until January again. We have our biggest event in November, and I have essentially heard that our clients wouldn’t like it if I was gone by then, or if they had no one or a new face by then. I am frustrated, and feel taken advantage of, but I LOVE my job, and it’s the first time I have ever LOVED my job.

    I asked for a raise when they asked me to stay on again a few weeks ago (I’m being paid way below what everyone even a job grade below mine is being paid) and when I followed up today I was told they will consider it this month, and the earliest it would take effect is October.

    This, for whatever reason, feels like the straw that has broken the camel’s back. My motivation has been dwindling for months, I’ve been doing my old job and the director job for almost a year now, and not getting paid for it, and continually kicking that can down the road just royally pisses me off right now. I want to start job searching in earnest now and get out of here, but I’m not sure if my reaction is too outsized for this news.

    Am I being unreasonable? What would you do?

    1. fposte*

      I would job search. Sadly and regretfully, but I would job search. Much as you love the job, they’ve had a good chance to hire you and responded with “Ehhhhh.” They’re not even committed enough to compensate you for the current work.

      I don’t know what your experience with the structure is, but they’re not handling this well, and I think that they’re going to kick these cans down the road as long as humanly possible.

    2. Mazzy*

      Wow, I could see them forgetting to make the title permanent if they just forgot about it, or didn’t realize it was a big deal, but since they specifically addressed it with you, that is not good on their part. Are they only having you do parts of the role and not fill the role in full, in which case you are truly the interim Director and not the actual Director? Only you will know that. But if you are truly filling the role and they still aren’t willing to make the title permanent and not give you a raise, that is not good, and I think that deserves another conversation to start. Be direct.

    3. Kathenus*

      It obviously depends on your personal circumstances, but you could call their bluff a bit and tell them you’re happy to stay in the interim director role with an increase until a permanent director is hired, and if that isn’t possible that you’re stepping back down to the position you’re being paid to do. If said calmly and professionally, they may realize that they can’t keep taking advantage of you anymore and do SOMETHING to either compensate you or move the process. There is unfortunately the case that they’ll react negatively and have it affect your current job or prospects of getting the promotion. But really you can either accept the status quo or take some kind of action – both have potential pros and cons, so you’ll need to decide what you’re most comfortable with. It sucks. I’m sorry they’re doing this to you and wish you good luck.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I would walk. There is nothing about any job that would keep me if I knew for a fact I was underpaid compared to people at a lower grade, denied any raise to compensate me for what I’m already doing, AND being asked to continue to perform the work that I wasn’t ‘good enough’ to do to be promoted to the actual position.

      They’re effectively calling your bluff about the raise and position by continuing to put you off and saying they can’t come through for another month or six months or whatever. You should turn the tables and call their bluff by saying either you receive pay/title increase immediately (and honestly I would argue for back-pay) for the work you’ve been doing and will continue to do contingent on that, or you’re gone. Your reaction is totally in line with the BS you’re being fed. Don’t let the mission’s value to you or your past efforts there blind you to what’s happening. And I’m sorry, that truly sucks.

    5. WellRed*

      If anything, you are undereacting. You hold the power here and need to insist on more money for sticking around. Also, start job searching. They are not treating you well.

  191. meowrisa*

    Is it weird if I don’t list my most recent manager as a reference for a new job?

    My go-to references for my current job hunt has been Old Job #1 – Supervisor A, Old Job #1 – Supervisor B, and Old Job #2 – Supervisor. Both old job #1 and 2 were year to year and a half positions where I resigned and my supervisors were very open to being used as references. But my Old Job #3 was only a 2 month temporary position where I didn’t mesh as well with the manager (it was a nightmare job for me and I’m very glad to get out). I only took Old Job #3 due to having a 6 month job gap due to dealing with health issues and it was field that I was originally interested in.

    I want to give strong references and I’m not sure if old job #3 manager can provide it. So can I not include him in my list of references? Or should I just add him onto the list and hope for the best? Actually, are references supposed to be 3 people or more? Thanks y’all!!

    1. CAA*

      References are however many people the new job asks for. Some places crazy and want up to 5, but they usually don’t require that all 5 be former supervisors.

      Anyway, I think you’re fine. A reference from a manager someone worked with for 2 months would not be very meaningful to me. I’d like to speak with a couple of people who supervised a candidate for at least a year. If you don’t have that, I’d look for a colleague who relied upon your output in order to complete her own work and can therefore speak to the quality of the work you did.

  192. Impagtient Coworkers Anonymous*

    I’m an employee who takes part in the training process, and I’m often asked to keep new hires as shadows for a few days. The full length of the training process varies per the individual. My own took about a week, but I’ve seen some take as long as 1-month (!!) or more (!!!). The probationary period is 90 days.

    And, okay, so I might be on the struggle bus when it comes to patience after the shadowing part of the training. I definitely got frustrated this week when I couldn’t rely on a newer hire to do a very basic function of the job, and got (rightfully) called out.

    So, how long does it typically take new hires to catch on and be able to function on their own? I am forcing myself to cultivate an attitude of patience, but I’m definitely doing it with gritted teeth and internal screams.

    1. Havarti*

      Constantly training people is hard. I was told when I was hired long ago that it would take me 3 months to really get the hang of all the various processes in that office and that’s what I’ve heard most people say since. Though if someone is shadowing you the entire time, that’s probably way too long. You want to make sure the new hires are taking notes (and looking at them rather than asking over and over again how to do something), setting calendar reminders if needed, etc. Some people grasp things quickly and others don’t. If there’s a pattern of new hires failing or struggling with something, maybe take a look at the training process and see where it’s falling short.

  193. Cheerfully toasting marshmallows over this burned bridge*

    For the last month, I have been fighting to be paid what I am owed by my previous job and I finally said screw this and am now just warming my derrière on the fire I set behind me.

    My last day at oldjob was in mid/late July. I had gotten my appraisal in mid-June, got Exceeds Expectations across the board, and was assured that the measly standard 3% raise would be applied asap. Oldjob always took forever to apply raises and the backpay, so I didn’t stress about my pay rate updating while I was there. But when I received my 7/31 paycheck, a few weeks after my last day — behold! My pay rate was still at the pre-appraisal rate.

    I called Payroll for over a week. Lots of voicemails left, lots of no answers back. I finally caught someone at their damn desk and they said to talk to their boss, who would be back that afternoon. I called back that afternoon. Surprise! I didn’t get my raise because my ding dang Director had only juuuuust that day put in the paperwork, probably as soon as Payroll lackey got off the phone with me and got on his case in turn. I would have my backpay in my 8/15 check.

    Since I’d also took some contract work with them which was going to be paid out on that pay period anyway, I said sure, ok.

    8/15 comes. There’s my backpay and the contract pay, hooray! There’s also $200 of deductions for benefits I had ceased to be enrolled in a month prior. I emailed Payroll this time because I wanted things in writing, and was assured that I would be reimbursed on the 8/30 paycheck.

    At this point, I should mention that the administrative offices at oldjob have always been pretty awful, and management has been mostly garbage, and turnover in my division was so fast that within four years of being hired I was working with only one person (below management) who’d been on staff when I had my first day. Some sectors had turned over 200%+. The company had sent us all a survey to fill out anonymously, which we did with lots of honesty — and it was brushed aside at the company yearly meeting with “Well, you all just don’t understand the benefits or you’d be very happy working here.” And in a major metropolitan city with high cost of living, starting salaries were below $35k/yr with no bonuses and locked-in 3% raises regardless of high performance.

    All this is to say, I wrote an 1800-word email to the President of the company, his assistant, the VP of the company, his assistant, HR, and the Director of HR to express my deep disappointment with my experience and suggest, uh, a few things that the company could improve on to stem the insane turnover. To no answer, of course, but it made me feel nice.

    In fact, it made me feel all the more nice to have done so when I received today’s check with the reimbursements only to find out that they reimbursed everything but the largest: a 401k contribution (to an account I already emptied out). When I crawled back up Payroll’s butt I got an astonishingly typo-ridden response from the Payroll Manager saying, more or less, ‘tough luck, we took it out’.

    So now I’m writing a response which ends, “I’ve been chasing money owed to me by [oldjob] for a month now, and if I have to pay an additional $50 fee to [401k] to roll over this new deposit, I’ll consider it a price well-paid to be done with all of you.”

    (Before anyone gets worried/judgey for me tossing the match behind me, I’m currently comfortably employed in a completely different field; I don’t ever want to work in oldjob’s field ever again; I still have multiple mangers from oldjob to use as references who I know will present me positively; and almost all of this was above the heads of anyone an interviewer would speak to if they skirted my reference list and just called the office.)

    1. WellRed*

      Just make sure you don’t get hit with any weird tac obligations down the road. As to the rest of this shit show, I wish more people would be like you and call this crap out! Go you!

      1. Cheerfully toasting marshmallows over this burned bridge*

        May I ask what you mean by tac obligations? I want to make sure I’m prepared if they do try to respond aggressively or if there’s a situation in which I’m going to have to interact professionally with the school.

        Thank you!! It feels empowering to tell them exactly where to stick it, and I do hold out hope it improves conditions for the friends who still work there. (I might have used the words “wage theft” in the big email to the execs… )

        1. CAA*

          I think she meant “tax” instead of “tac”. If you’re paying for a 401K rollover to a qualified IRA account, then there are no tax implications to worry about.

          1. Cheerfully toasting marshmallows over this burned bridge*

            Ahhhh that makes sense. Yeah, it’s a 401k to 401k within the 60 day deadline, so I should be fine.

    2. ..Kat..*

      What about complaining to your state employment agency? There are requirements of them paying you (as well as paying your last paycheck) by a certain timeframe. If they fail, there are fines/penalties. Sounds like they are violating this.

      1. valentine*

        This is where I thought the C-suite email was going. Why not tell them about what they owed you instead of giving them advice, especially before you got your money?

  194. Hiring Manager*

    I am currently hiring for a fairly high-level position (Director level), so applicants will not be new to the business world. Our firm has a defined application policy in which applications go to our HR internal recruiting team to be screened; candidates who pass the screen are sent directly to me for further decisions. I received an email, resume and full application from someone who was clearly told to Show Initiative (by finding my name and email) and contact the hiring manager directly. We get many applications, and it is annoying to have someone not follow procedure and come directly to me because we have a process in place to handle them. I’m torn between not responding at all (this person isn’t what we are seeking and we have many other strong candidates) or responding that they should follow our standard application procedure to be considered (trying to help them understand that this behavior is hurting their chances). Would be interested in others’ opinions- thanks!

    1. HigherEd on Toast*

      I would go ahead and send them the e-mail to let them know they should follow the standard application procedures, but that’s because I often get e-mails like this (from students) and it doesn’t take me long to type up a paragraph saying, “No, this is what you need to do instead.” Usually they thank me and that’s the end of it.

      If, however, this person then sends something like, “But [special reason I, the special one, need to be accommodated by you instead],” as my students sometimes do, I wouldn’t bother further responding or even checking to see what became of their application. At that point they’ve shown they’re neither a strong candidate nor interested in actually applying.

      1. Mid*

        I would second this. It’s hard when you’re young/new to the working world and being given bad advice, often from multiple sources. So, I’d politely let them know that Showing Initiative is not going to help them, and maybe link to Ask A Manager or some other source for good advice.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      It’d depend on the quality of the candidate for me. For a good candidate, I’d just send a quick email redirecting them to the application policy. But since you say this candidate isn’t someone you’d consider anyway, I think I would just ignore it. Now, that runs the risk that this person will continue hounding you (Show Initiative!), but I’m guessing that would happen even if you sent the same quick email about the policy. But I don’t think they will ever see it as a corrective action to help them with application norms, because even as a more senior applicant they didn’t understand that “bug the hiring manager” is a generally bad idea to begin with.

      I do agree if it were entry level, that sending the “here’s the proper application process” email is a good idea, though.

  195. Stressed*

    I have anxiety and have gone to a therapist but its pretty well controlled. However today I’m having an extremely high anxiety day and cannot focus at work. This has been the case for a few hours now.

    I work at a large startup and my boss and a large part of my team is working from home today. It’s an open plan office, so I don’t have much privacy.

    It’s passed now, but any tips for handling this (god forbid) it happens again? Things that usually help are a big chance in scenery or activity, which was much more doable in grad school than at work. I can go for a walk, there’s a Starbucks about 5 mins away but nothing else in the area, and we do have a kitchen we can work in.

    1. WellRed*

      If it’s that bad, is going home early an option? Just say you’re under the weather or fake a plumbing emergency.

    2. Public Health Nerd*

      Pretend to take a call and walk outside with your phone if you can. Or text a friend to actually call you and make your phone ring. That gives you an excuse to get outside for a few minutes, take deep breaths, meditate for 5 minutes, or whatever is necessary until the anxiety lightens up.

      If it’s more the focus issue, I save up some fluffy tasks for days like this – things like updating a spreadsheet or scheduling recurring meetings, catching up on filing. Sometimes it gets me into a more productive groove until it’s back under control.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      You might try Cognitive Behavioral Therapy by book, group or individual sessions. You need to find techniques that work for you specifically. Not all techniques will work for everyone.
      I think you’ll find a method. Best of luck.

  196. Kisses*

    Hi! I have a question about exempt/non exempt. My husband makes 550 a week working outside in pest control in Florida. He does not get paid overtime, and does not accrue any leave for one year, and 2 sick days after 5 (!) years. The business is closed for a paid holiday on Monday, but due to the hurricane they will be closed Weds as well. His boss has threatened all the employees with not paying them for Tuesday if they do not work tomorrow (sat). However, it was my understanding that since he does not get overtime, he is required to receive his full paycheck if he works any part of the week. Am I wrong? Neither of us has had a salaried job before, but it seems to me that if they dock his pay, he would be eligible for all the overtime over the last 3 months. He works 50-60 hours a week easily and is usually on 6 days due to the extreme work load (22+ stops a day spread across central Florida, from Lakeland to Winter Park), and a former employee is actually taking the company to court over overtime and pay docking that they refuse to settle. What um.. What is the right answer? Obviously making right over 2k a month here in Orlando is still considered extreme poverty and we still get SNAP. Also can’t afford rent. Sigh. I’m frustrated because they claimed he’d get a raise at 90 days, and they went back on that. Also the job was advertised at 35-45k a year.. His boss implied he would move up to that income but he will NOT give him a timeline.
    Bless you all, be safe in the hurricane, and continue being the best comment section on the net. Happy Labor Day :)

    1. MissBliss*

      Yeah, if he’s exempt, he needs to get paid his full salary for next week– even if he doesn’t work Saturday or Monday. At the very least, it’s my understanding that they would at least have to pay him any overtime for that week. Sounds rough, I’m sorry! Stay safe and enjoy the holiday.

      2. Clisby*

        If he’s exempt, then I think he should get his full salary – but no overtime. Exempt employees aren’t entitled to overtime.

        If he’s really salaried but non-exempt, they should be paying any overtime he works. (Non-exempt employees can be paid hourly, by salary, by commission – but their pay can’t be less than minimum wage.)

        At least, that’s my understanding in the US.

    2. Alex*

      First of all, regardless of how his employer would like to classify him, it doesn’t sound like his job is even eligible to be considered as a salaried job. He is the person who goes house to house doing pest control, like spraying for bugs/setting traps etc.? No way is that an exempt eligible job. Seems like his employer is just breaking the law across the board.

      But yes, if he were some sort of manager in an exempt role, he needs to get paid in any week that he works. I believe, although I am not sure, that the employer can define “week” as he wishes–Monday to Monday, Wednesday to Wednesday, etc. So conceivably, if he worked Tuesday of this week, and then didn’t work until Thursday of next week, he could get docked in pay as an exempt worker. But that isn’t even here or there in this situation because he is just getting screwed all over the place.

      1. Kisses*

        I didn’t realize that exempt/non exempt depended on what work you did? I feel dumb trying to understand it, but I’ve never even had salary. So it’s not just figured by the amount paid?

        1. fhqwhgads*

          So, there’s the law that says you must get overtime after X. Being exempt means “oh except for these special people, they’re exempt from that law because Reasons.” So the intention of the concept of “exempt” is it cannot apply to just anybody. They have to meet certain criteria that it’s OK to not follow that because of special circumstances that apply to those specific roles.
          AAM explains it really well here: https://www.askamanager.org/exempt-and-non-exempt

          The second to last paragraph is especially relevant in your husband’s case because while it sounds like from your description of his job there’s no way he should be exempt to begin with, the kicker is if the employer treats him in some ways as non-exempt, which it sounds like they’re trying to do and have it both ways, poof, he’s not exempt anymore. He is almost certainly owed back overtime.

        1. Observer*

          But they still need to be paid overtime. The only think salaried can do is smooth over dips.

          If they are not paying overtime, they are treating him as exempt – in which case they CANNOT dock his pay.

    3. WellRed*

      Your husband’s problem is not whether he should get paid, but that he works for a crap company. Also, I bet he’s mis classified as yo his employee status and should be paid OT. Are there really no better places in Florida to do this work? Stay safe!

      1. Kisses*

        There are not many places better to work here in Florida. My father does security at Disney, works 6 day weeks as well in order to get time and a half for one and still only clears $480 a week. I never found a job that paid more than 9.50 an hour and I have a degree in art (commercial and fine). But what do you do when there’s no way to relocate? And we voted. Ohh we voted.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      It sounds like the owner is trying to have the best of both worlds, but it doesn’t work that way. Either you’re salary-exempt and you’re paid a yearly wage divided into equal pay periods no matter how many hours you work, OR you get paid hourly with overtime after 40+ hours.
      If you’re salary they cannot deduct pay for days off.

      1. Kisses*

        That’s what I said! He’s trying to double dip. He doesn’t want to pay overtime but he wants to dock his guys.

    5. Anon9*

      Others will give you more of the legal advice but practically, your husband should look for a different employer! These people sound awful and unscrupulous – I think the timeline for that raise is never unfortunately and he’d do better elsewhere. :\

      1. Kisses*

        He started looking today. He has struggled with employment in the past and I know he wants to stick with something to get us in a better situation but.. It’s unsustainable. It’s still not enough to cover the bills at bare minimum and he has felt taken advantage of throughout his time there.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      He should NOT be exempt from OT.

      He’s not highly compensated.
      He does labor not desk work.
      He most likely has no autonomy what so ever and has to abide by the rules that are set forth by the company.

      Is he at least a manager of some kind?! Holy moly this company doesn’t only suck for having cruddy benefits, low pay and misclassification but they’re ran by a wanna be tycoon.

      It’s a full day so sadly, since they have a PTO schedule in place, they can be required to take days off as either out of the PTO bucket or they can deduct a full day if they’re out of PTO.

      What it is if he worked an hour and then was sent home that day, then they cannot prorate his salary but could dock PTO if they wanted to.

      Your husband deserves better than this. There are millions of bug places out there, I pray that you stay safe and that after this BS, he finds another GD job. I hate his boss so frigging much just from your comment.

      1. Kisses*

        Thank you. I thought I was so out of line thinking like this and I’m a little overwhelmed by the support. Thank you so much. His title is “shrub specialist” because he’s the only guy spraying bushes- the others spray lawns. Yes, it’s the same work and they are all pest control working with some FOUL chemicals.

    7. CAA*

      I agree that he’s misclassified. If he’s not doing it already, he needs to start keeping a record of exact hours worked. When that former employee’s case is decided, he may find that he’s reclassified and they owe him boatloads of back overtime pay. Having a contemporaneous record of how much overtime he actually worked can help to make sure he gets all that he’s owed.

      But to your main question, if he’s currently classified as exempt, then he has to be paid his full salary if he works part of the week unless he chooses to take leave-without-pay for part of a week. The work week is defined by the employer, so it could run Sat through Fri or even from noon on Friday to the next Friday noon. It just has to be consistent every week. It’s hard to know exactly what’s going on here, but what might be happening is that the boss is saying the work week runs from Sat through Fri and the scheduled workdays for next week will be Sat/Mon(hol)/Weds/Thur/Fri, and if he does not work Sat that it will be his choice to take leave-without-pay, i.e. the shorter work week will be of his own volition, so they do not have to pay him for the full 5 days. (You wrote that they’re threatening not to pay him for Tuesday and that he’ll be off Wednesday for the hurricane, but I’m assuming one of those is a typo.) Anyway, I’m sorry to say this is probably legal, but it’s a really awful thing to do.

      1. Kisses*

        Ah yes! He will be off Tuesday for the hurricane and Monday for the paid holiday (the employer also said if anyone takes off Friday or Tuesday they would not be paid for Monday- this was right before he decided to close for Tuesday and tell them to work Sat). I admit it is confusing, and you made really good sense of all of this. I understand what you’re saying about the legality as well- the boss does make Saturdays a requirement if they are ‘behind’- but they are always behind because they are short staffed (I wonder why..)
        I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to respond and help me. Everyone.
        Also, about his hours, I know he has mentioned clocking in and out, but I’ll make sure he’s keeping his hours personally as well. OH! He actually is required to do work at home too. He is given a list of say, 100/120 stops for the week, and has to route them himself- then he has to call/email each customer to let them know when he will be by the following day. Usually spends an hour or so at home doing this in the evenings. Wow. The more I type the worse it sounds. The office workers there don’t work weekends and also apparently just do sales calls.

    8. Kisses*

      I wanted to say thank you again for everyone who helped me out tonight. I really mean it when I say this is the best chat/comment section and Alison manages (ha!) it really well.
      Thank you so much. I hope everyone has a good Labor Day!

    9. LGC*

      So, like one more thing: aside from your husband being misclassified based on the work he does, he might not be eligible for salary to begin with! If I’m not mistaken, the yearly threshold is $35,308 pre-tax now (up from $23,000 or thereabouts). If he’s making $550/wk, that’s…roughly $28,600 (okay,$28,700) a year.

      1. Clisby*

        And complete aside from pay, being classified as exempt vs. non-exempt generally requires the duties test.

        Here’s the duties test for being considered exempt (not entitled to overtime pay).
        “Exempt executive job duties.

        Job duties are exempt executive job duties if the employee
        regularly supervises two or more other employees, and also
        has management as the primary duty of the position, and also,
        has some genuine input into the job status of other employees (such as hiring, firing, promotions, or assignments).”

        1. LGC*

          True, but everyone else covered the duties thing. I missed that you linked to the test for exempt vs. Non-exempt, though!

  197. Viridian*

    I have a question: What do you do when you have a difficult boss who has given vague feedback about your personality (that has now made you paranoid about how you’re seen by other coworkers) and has made bigoted jokes/statements (of people of the same race as me) and brushing aside concerns related to racism? I can’t get into much detail about the situations but I’m honestly at my breaking point right now. I have a few months left on my contract but I just feel so out of place at work nowadays. So much that it’s taken a toll on my physical and mental heath (so much so my doctor suggested I start looking for other work). I know I should probably leave but this job is kind of a stepping stone to finding better work but I don’t want to spend my work days crying in the bathroom at work and after I come home. What do I do?

    1. Anon9*

      Your doc is correct – however, you might be stuck working the remainder of your contract but take solace in the fact you are almost of out this.

      It’s not on you to try to change a bigot, but you can do as much as you can to protect yourself. Filter him out as much as you can, create a mantra, redirect all conversations back to work. You can take the direct route and call him out – “That’s a weird thing to say”, “What do you think I should do about X?”and”Can you clarify what you meant by Y?”, “This is the fifth time you have brought up Z. Is this something you want to sit down to discuss or can we let the matter drop?” or simply, “Wow” then get back onto work.

      You could also document these things and present them to your HR department but I understand some people are not up for that fight and that’s understandable. But please know what he is saying is definitely untrue – it’s all in HIS mind.

      Do you have any support in your coworkers? Or do you feel they condone this behavior or would?

      1. Viridian*

        Yeah, I’ve been documenting everything as much as I can so if something happens and HR wants my side of the story, I can back myself up. I don’t think I’ll get any support from my coworkers because it’s very much an environment of “everybody’s happy, hehehe, everything’s great”… even when they’re not. That and I have to do so much hand-holding in my emails and when I speak now by adding an extra thanks to an email or a verbal request because if I even forget once or have resting b*tch face, some of my co-workers will IMMEDIATELY think it’s all about them. *rolls eyes* I’m already at my wit’s end dealing with anxiety, depression and other personal stuff but this on top of it is so exhausting. :(

        1. Observer*

          Given what you are describing, is there any reason not to go to HR proactively? It sounds like it’s close enough to a legal “hostile workplace” situation that any competent HR should be concerned about it.

          Also, do start looking for another job. You don’t have to take the first thing that you get offered if it’s not in line with what you want. But having an escape plan can do wonders for your mental (and physical) health.

    2. EJane*

      You said contract. Are you working under an agency, or as an independent contractor? If agency, i.e. temping, keep a record of what’s being said and present it to your placement manager.

      I’m going to push for you looking for different work. I know it’s incredibly difficult–I’ve also been in ‘crying in the bathroom’ workplaces that I had to stay in–but the sooner you get out of this situation, the less trauma and baggage you’ll take into your next job. I worked for an absolutely bonkers EA at a financial firm. She was very good at her job, and the kind of woman who made me try to return flowers to a florist, or call a retail store on company time to find out how she could return something she purchased a year ago and didn’t have tags or receipt for.
      That job screwed me over for a WHILE. For almost a year afterwards, I was on edge, uneasy around management, always took feedback as the loaded with subtext comment it had been instead of honest and straightforward, despite the wonderful managers that followed. For months, I would fight off panic attacks whenever I received criticism (that had more to do with my actual CPTSD, but the emotional distress was real).

      If you absolutely have to stay, remind yourself as frequently as you can that you are basically Alice in Wonderland, and everyone else is absolutely insane. What you’re dealing with isn’t normal, or healthy. It will pass. Finding something to repeat to yourself over and over again as a bit of a mantra (Mine is “keep your armor up”; when i get really upset, I figure out how to translate it into other languages) that helps you focus on disengaging emotionally. Maybe pretending you’re an automaton or android and seeing how coolly and efficiently you can do your job (I tried this, too) could help.
      And if you can, in any way, swing it, start seeing a therapist. Having someone to offload this absolute nonsense onto, someone who can provide a reality check, will be invaluable. (Betterhelp.com provides financial aid and gives you the option of texting a therapist anytime, if that sounds useful.)

      1. Viridian*

        I got the job through a government program in Canada so the employer pays me directly (hopefully that clarifies things).

        I think I’m kinda settled on the idea of leaving my contract two months early or something like that. I do like the mantra you mentioned and will definitely keep that in mind. I’ve already started thinking to myself that these people are too coddled if they’re unable that it’s not weird to have someone act differently (but respectfully) than you and that there are different communication styles. That and they’re emotionally coddled, tbh.

        I’m also seeing a counsellor right now so I have support outside of work (along with family and friends).

  198. EJane*

    I’m a team lead at a small family-owned IT company–and the office is exactly as inf0rmal as you would expect.
    We have a new hire who is incredibly endearing in his earnestness and devotion. He reminds me VERY strongly of myself when I was in my early 20s–same kind of emotional investment in the workplace, same kind of attachment to his coworkers, same total lack of work-life balance. I know from experience that that enthusiasm will eventually fade into something more sustainable, and have mentioned in my conversations with him something to the effect of ‘martyrdom is not devotion. You’re already a very valuable member of this team. Taking on very hard projects or pulling large amounts of overtime won’t make you more valuable, but it will burn you out.’

    He has a frustrating tendency to stay past when his day should be over, saying he’s off the clock, but picking up any work that needs to be done. He also clearly thinks it’s funny, as I or the ops manager will say “go home” or “stop working, you’re clocked off” or “don’t do work at home, you’ve put in a full day here” and he’ll grin and come up with some sort of reason that what he’s doing isn’t a problem: he hasn’t hit overtime yet, no one else is answering the phone at that exact moment, this thing needs to get done and why not do it now.

    Working overtime is common, but voluntary overtime is discouraged. His enthusiasm will run its own course, but I’m struggling with setting clear boundaries around work. The owner and ops manager will back me up, but they’re not involved enough with our techs to spearhead this. (Our ops manager is also the worst example of work-life balance I have EVER fucking seen, so no one would listen to him anyway.)

    When you have a young employee who adores his job, refers to the company as a family and will happily work off-the-clock despite being told not to REPEATEDLY… how do you tackle it?

    1. LGC*

      Is he hourly? If he is (and that’s what it sounds like): Tell him his job is at risk because that’s illegal. Like, you owe him back wages and y’all can get cited for that illegal. Obviously, there are a lot of places that…bend labor laws. But it sounds like you’re generally on the up and up in that sense – so that’s your best plan of attack.

      Furthermore, even if it was legal, it’s unethical – and you want to make sure that you don’t look like you’re taking advantage of him in any way. (Which you guys aren’t! You have the right ideas. But you need to hammer it home that for him, this is serious like a heart attack and you don’t even want the appearance of that.)

      Normally, I don’t like going nuclear, but this is a case where I definitely would. And have – people have joked about it and I’ve immediately shut that down. I actually had to have a similar conversation this week. Twice. (You would THINK that a tall bearded guy telling you in his most authoritative voice that you cannot work off the clock EVER would get you to stop the first time. Especially when his desk has a direct view of yours and is right next to it. You would be mistaken.)

      1. EJane*

        Oh yes, he’s hourly. Thank you for the point about back wages! I knew there was something important that I was blanking on, outside of “this is super illegal knock it off”.
        I have a meeting with the ops manager in a few minutes, and then another meeting with this employee later today. I’ll bring up the back wages and citations.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      If you have been very firm and very clear with a serious tone and face: “NO, you can’t stay once you’ve clocked out. You HAVE to stop working. If you continue to work off the clock, we’re going to have a problem.” etc, consider writing him up. Maybe he needs to see it in black and white. Acknowledge his enthusiasm, if you like, but this is not the way to behave. Does he have other boundary issues at work? I hope this is not a trend with him.

    4. Anonymouse for this*

      I’d tell him that repeatedly ignoring instructions from his manager is a problem – no matter how well intentioned he is. As others have said depending on how he’s employed it is potentially illegal. Not to mention – if he gets away with ignoring your instructions on his timekeeping then how are you going to ensure he follows other work related instructions.

  199. Dazed and Confused*

    Due to some medical concerns, I have to quit my job abroad and will be moving back home. Problem is, now I’ll have to address a 4 month gap on my resume while job searching. How should I handle this in my cover letter and interviews?

    1. Kisses*

      4 months doesn’t sound too difficult to explain. I’m not at all discounting your health or experience, but if it even comes up, since you’re moving back to the country, maybe use that? You took 90 days to handle the move and have been job searching?

  200. Concerned Worker*

    I have been at a hospital in one department for six years. I know and love my job and the people I work with. In the last few weeks there has been a series of people that have left. Most of these have been managers and others. All of the cases have one main thread. The manager of a certain department that has basically set people up to either leave or get fired. The last one was the manager in my department. I should say the manager’s spouse works in my department. In the last few weeks we have had only a few interviews for the previous managers job and who was one of the few who interviewed. The spouse. we were told three weeks ago that the spouse was chosen to take over our department. My coworkers and I took our concerns to HR and our higher up in administration. We were told that if the manager made any sort of attempts to meddle in our department that we were to report it to the admin. One problem with admin is the managers best buddy. today while trying to field questions from residents we received a call and e mail from this manager questioning about problem that has nothing to do with that department. I am at a quandary. I know the history. Do i take this to administration when i return to work? Do i let this go? I need my job and don’t want to upset the boat. I should say I have spoken with my co worker who has been in the department for 18 years about this. They are screaming at me to report this to the higher admin. I don’t want to put a target on my back. I just want to do the job i love.

    1. Public Health Nerd*

      If you’re worried about retribution, you could try the hospital compliance hotline if you have one. At ours we had an outside hotline where you could call in stuff anonymously. I think this would be a violation of hospital policies around anti nepotism.

    2. Anono-me*

      I think you need to try to transfer and possibly job search. This has been questioned and the powers-that-be have decided that everything will be fine.

      The story where the person who points out the emperor doesn’t have any clothes on gets a reward is a fairy tale.

  201. Grand Mouse*

    Hi everyone! Happy Friday.

    So I have a set of problems I know there’s not really a good answer to. First off, my health isn’t great. I have some chronic illnesses as well as lingering injuries so it is never going to fully go away. Sometimes it gets really bad and I wish I could take time off work to recover. I have a job that requires coverage though, and I was raised with a very strict work ethic where you come in no matter how sick you are. (Unless it’s pnuemonia- my family takes that seriously because I almost died from it as a kid). But I’ve worked while throwing up, or barely being able to walk, struggling to breathe, feeling desperately suicidal etc. So it is really hard for me to excuse taking time off. Some times I would even like to have a day off before it becomes a crisis! Being miserable and in pain is exhausting.

    Then there is the fact I’m in a long term, long distance relationship. We’ve been together over two years and only seen each other twice. For the success of our relationship, we need to see each other more often. We’re engaged for heavens sake!

    Then I was hoping to get a medical procedure done that is technically elective but would greatly improve my quality of life.

    And then for the most frivolous but still important I would like to take a trip to Italy next year. I’ve never been and turned down going twice because I thought it was the responsible thing to do. I’ve regretted both times for years.

    I do work only part-time (5 half days a week) but I do get PTO (earned at a slower rate of course). Mostly venting but guidance would be nice. I have been very very ill my whole life (mentally and physically) and it would be so nice to have a better quality of life! Especially since my last job had no PTO and any sick days required a doctor note so I spent the majority of the time feeling awful.

    My family is financially very well off, I’m not, and I’ve secretly wished for them to support me while I take time off to pursue passions and travel and stuff. More realistically though, what do you all think?

    1. EJane*

      I’m slightly unclear on the question. Are you asking for ideas on how to balance all these desires? Asking if any of it is reasonable/unreasonable?

    2. Alex*

      Have you asked your family if they would support you for a while? What kind of relationship do you have with them? There’s no shame in taking some time off to heal and recover from sickness and injury, although of course for lots of people that just isn’t financially doable because they don’t have the resources.

      I can’t advise you about what to do because it is unclear what your overall goals are. Do you wish to move to where your SO is? Is your job/career important to you as something you want to grow, or is it just a job that pays the bills? Do you have in-demand skills where you would fairly easily be able to find a new job? Is that location-dependent?

      I might step back and ask yourself where you want to be in three years, and try to map out a plan to get there.

    3. Kisses*

      Hi! I hope you find something that works for you. I’m someone who has ignored my health issues as well due to money and terrible jobs with no benefits. Just know I feel some of your pain (especially in the mental department). I don’t think what you are feeling is unreasonable. It is frequently what I wish for as well! Can’t someone just fly in and save us. My extended family is all very wealthy, and while we are on public assistance and have been evicted, lost cars, etc, they insist we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps just like they did. It can hurt even more because even though I wish for a windfall, I still strongly believe in making our own way and being responsible. I think it makes it harder when yes, you want to be healthy, and would love to see the world.
      I don’t think you are being unreasonable but I think the likelihood of family saving someone is.. low. It doesn’t mean you don’t deserve to be healthy however. Since the procedure would improve your quality of life and maybe perhaps increase your earning potential in the future, maybe you can ask for a loan to cover that? And put $5/10 to yourself each week- in a jar or envelope and know when you have $400 for example it will cover a plane ticket at least to see your fiancé. But I understand even that can be difficult and unrealistic when one lives paycheck to paycheck.
      You know, when my health was at its worst I found that working more hours buy fewer days actually helped a lot. I don’t know if that’s an option for you either, but sometimes just having a day where I didn’t have to worry about getting in was the best thing for me.
      I don’t know you and I don’t wanna pretend that what you’re dealing with is like me.. But I do understand. I can commiserate and I sincerely hope your health improves, and I hope you can see the world as well one day.
      Best of luck to you. <3

  202. I hate coming up with usernames*

    I GOT A JOB OFFER TODAY!!! From one of my top two dream school districts. I’ll miss my co-workers and feel badly about leaving my students so close to the start of the school year, but this is going to be such a good move for me. More money, less stress, better work/life balance (and out of the world of charter schools).

      1. I hate coming up with usernames*

        I felt like SUCH a hypocrite working for a charter, because I’m so strongly against them. Unfortunately, here in the state of way too many charters (bet you can guess – thanks, DeVos) it’s kind of expected that you get experience there first, and then you can get a regular public school job.

  203. Junior Dev*

    How do you get over feeling dumb when you’re new at a job? I just have a whole lot that I don’t know in a lot of categories. A lot of it pertains to how things are done internally to the company, or with regards to some specific compliance thing that’s obscure enough it might as we be internal to my company. It’s a software company and things are constantly changing, at least once a month some team gets split up or merged with another team or rearranged, and technical stuff changes fast enough that if you are trying to find out “how do I connect to XYZ server?” it’s likely that the documentation that was written 6 months ago is no longer correct, and that document is one of about 20 with similar titles where it’s unclear which one is meant to be actually acted upon.

    My boss has asked me to keep up with things better and try to find answers before coming to him but it’s an absolute fire hose of information every day and I have a lot of baggage from past jobs and my childhood about feeling stupid and ashamed about not knowing stuff. Are there any resources or methods for keeping up with all this stuff?

    1. Kisses*

      My husband always had a notebook with long processes written out for any tech job he had. He usually stopped referring to it a few weeks in but it was good to have just in case.

      Remember they hired you for a reason! They have faith in you performing the job. I also asked a ton of questions too over my new period and I’m sure I annoyed a lot of managers- but I tried to retain what I knew and if I ever made a mistake I was upfront about it and did my best to correct it.
      And on the tech side of things, even with having a company intranet kind of deal, my husband still referred to google to answer some things. He was just as technical as he could be in the search bar and was usually able to find something to help.
      Good luck! And you are NOT stupid.

    2. Zombie Unicorn*

      I wonder if your manager might react better if you saved up your questions and asked them in one go?

  204. More anon for this one*

    Weird situation & long post, sorry in advance. TLDR: My boss, Greg, is upset about how happy one of my coworkers*, Madge, is to leave this job (*Although we have the same boss but are not on the same projects and thus don’t regularly interact outside of all-team meetings).

    She’s been in the position about 1.5 years and she was a high performer & got along very well with everyone on our team and in our department. I work in an alternative space and see everyone, including Greg, infrequently. Unfortunately, Madge was being horribly bullied by her team leader, Susan (she worked in a team of three, with her and Susan in the office constantly and the other team member only being part time and majority at another site). I honestly can’t tell you why Madge didn’t come forward earlier when she began to tell me Susan’s behavior – one example being logs of Susan calling Madge between 8 to 19 times on multiple occasions during non-working hours for non-emergencies; and mia culpa, I occasionally would hear Susan take little jabs at her when I was there but at the time I thought in jest as Madge’s humor was of a deprecating nature & she would laugh it off. (I fully acknowledge how bad I was in this situation as I could see Madge slowly losing enthusiasm and becoming visibly depressed on some days – I sincerely thought it had to do with out-of-work issues as she would be equally cheery on other days).

    They wrapped up the project in early July, and Madge came clean after Susan’s last day in mid-July, when Greg offered her a non-project position on his staff. He was very sympathetic but he’s also a little…personality challenged, for lack of better words – I don’t know what Madge told him in their 1-1 specifically but he then went around and told EVERYONE that Madge was “on the edge mentally” & “to be very kind to her.” So the entire department (!), not just Greg’s direct reports, walked on eggshells around her & were terribly sweet as far as I could see. Greg also centered it around himself, saying how he had “failed her” and I actually heard Madge comforting him and saying that, “no you did not, it’s okay!”

    When I spoke to Madge she insisted she was fine but admittedly, emotionally exhausted now that it’s all over (she did use our EAP for free counselling) + didn’t have to always be on guard and would rather let the matter rest. But I think she got tired of people wasting perfectly good eggs just to walk on their shells, because Madge informed Greg she had accepted another position approx two weeks later, i.e. this Monday, and she was giving three weeks notice. This entire week she has been back to her usual cheery, bubbly self and Greg is more upset that “she didn’t tell me sooner” & he “would have done something about it if he’d known” & how “she had agreed to stay on but now isn’t staying on.” I feel bad for Madge and I am happy she has a new position – she did agree she would stay with us, or at least we interpreted it that way, but I understand that our office would be a reminder of a traumatic experience and how Greg’s response to it didn’t help.

    I am not sure what to do to make Greg understand this isn’t about him (as he keeps bringing this “I failed her” business up when we are supposed to be talking about work that he’d planned for her to do in the future – I’ve worked for him for about 9 years so personal/business is blurred) & how to make Madge’s remaining time here enjoyable.

    1. The Francher Kid*

      I’m not sure you can. He sounds a lot like Ethel, the clueless boss in an updated letter from yesterday. After the way Greg (mis)handled this, I think I know why Madge didn’t come forward sooner.

        1. valentine*

          Greg knows he’s full of crap. He verbally beats himself up so no one else will have the heart to tell him he’s willfully incompetent, but doesn’t change his behavior. He’s turned the tide against Madge by calling her unstable, so that people are afraid of her and so, if she were to report him, no one would believe her.

          1. More anon for this one*

            Harsh but ultimately true. My knee jerk reaction is to defend Greg because if he’s incompetent, at least it’s sincerely. I think Madge, who showed a lot of emotional maturity, understood he was well-intentioned so there some comfort in that.

            Never thought about the unstable portion but she even mentioned in passing how poorly she felt about being treated like a ‘basketcase.’ While I don’t think anyone thought that, I can see how it would be upsetting that everyone’s using kid’s gloves and soft tones on you after treating your normally before.

            1. The Francher Kid*

              Greg may be a nice guy but he sounds like a terrible manager. Although she downplayed it, his treatment of Madge was little better than the bullying she’d already endured–and I wonder whether she downplayed it to you because she knew you would excuse Greg as you have. He gossips, he disregards feedback because he thinks he knows better, and he manipulates an employee already worn down by horrible bullying into comforting *him.* Good intentions don’t matter, actions do. I think your good opinion of Greg is somewhat blinding you to how truly bad his actions were here.

      2. More anon for this one*

        I don’t think the outcome would have change regardless as well. He’s not nearly that clueless; most of the time, he gets the hint but vetoes it because he’s decided on the best way to handle it already.

        It’s a little irritating thinking about losing a good, hard worker because something so avoidable. Greg should have just kept his conversation with Madge to himself, although he is something of a gossip unintentionally, and respected her desire to create a new normal.

        1. Observer*

          If he’s usually not that clueless, then that makes his behavior even worse – it’s a lot harder to give him the benefit of the doubt. Also, it raises that suspicion that he’s expecting further problems that he SHOULD deal with, but won’t and so wants to blow her credibility. I’m not saying that’s what he IS thinking, but it’s a real possibility.

          If you saw signs of the bullying Greg should have seen it as well. So that speaks to the issue. Also, Greg’s response doesn’t really read as clueless. And, regardless is was WAAAY out of line. If Madge had ANY inkling that he would react so badly it make a LOT of sense that she wouldn’t speak up.

          To be honest, the response Greg deserves from you is “Yes, you DID fail her. And what you did when she finally told you proves that she was right to keep quiet – your action would only have made things worse not better.” I doubt you could actually say to him, though, so just don’t engage. And keep what you’ve learned about him in mind.

  205. kible*

    two things this time. one, i had a job ask me for references, but also asked for their address. is that normal? i have no clue what their personal address is, and two of them don’t have work addresses right now (one is unemployed, the other is retired). I just put “not applicable” in the field, and provided phone and email.

    second thing, i’ve read/heard many places that you don’t want to name a salary/compensation when going through first round/screening interviews and just say you want whatever is fair market rate. so i tried that the other day with a place, and the lady was very miffed and said to get a better answer for the next interview since they’ll probably ask again, and they’ll want a number…i tend to undersell myself, also this specific job is a different industry and job than what i had before. at least there’s research for what a general number would be but still…

    1. Kisses*

      I hate salary questions. We were always told to put ‘open’ on the application and just take what they give you for goodness sake.
      I recently started asking for $10 as my hourly rate because I feel confident in my abilities (most retail here pays 7.50-8.50 an hour). My husband said no- ask for $11. At least then I might get an offer at $10!
      God this sounds depressing. I don’t think you should sell yourself short though. You bring value to the company and you are worth it.

      But yeah, we only gave addresses for references when we bought a car. I don’t know why an employer would want it? Since I lived in another state, I usually give the town and state along with the number. It sounds like a weird request.

  206. Carol Danvers*

    I recently commented in these threads – once a couple months ago and once a few weeks ago on a couple issues that I wanted to update on:
    1. The loud chewer – this particular person was a temp, so she actually went away for a while, but was then hired as a permanent employee in the organization (which is great for her), and we are now sitting almost back to back in the little cubicle farm. In another stroke of luck and timing, our company recently updated our phone system, which included providing each employee with a pair of bluetooth noise-cancelling headphones which can accept multiple connections, so you can be hooked up to your office phone and listening to music/podcasts/whatever on your device. Now, whenever I hear her coming back to her desk with her lunch, I just pop those babies on and nothing bothers me then.

    2. I was dealing with a temp who kept spelling my name wrong. I ended up signing off one of my emails to her ‘Carol, with a C’, and she never mentioned it, but now she spells my name right, so there’s a win!

    I hope that everyone enjoys their long weekend.

  207. AbcZyz*

    Does anyone know why lately I have been seeing job ads that say things like “experience obtained before age 21 is not qualifying” or “experience obtained before degree completing is not qualifying”.

    I can understand things like this for fields like mental health (where there are legal differences between prelicensure and postlicensure internships). But for other fields it seems like another way to make it harder for younger people to get jobs

    1. bigX*

      Woah, never seen that & I don’t think it qualifies as any sort of age discrimination but it feels…odd? The experience is still experience in most cases – you can still apply those skills. This could all be solved by being more specific about their requirements (or not completely discrediting pre-degree skills but saying to include them as a separate category) and years of desired experience.

      But, a moment of silence for the prodigies graduating college at 16. It’s a tough world for the young and the brilliant.

    2. Kisses*

      Does that mean that things like internships wouldn’t count? That seems wrong, since these kids would be basing future careers off that.

  208. Tired*

    I was recruited by a friend of 10 years to work as her COO like 10 months ago, and it was the worst decision of my life. I really never knew that it would be so bad, she’s not transparent to me and her own boss (the boss is foreign and she worked full time in that country, but he wanted her to open a branch in my country, but she and I put only our names in the legal documents of the company establishment), defensive and gives non-solution most of the time. I was never trained, given an SOP, and the product is not even well-planned and changed several times already, so I had to wear many hats, all the hats, at a very low pay (that I stupidly agreed because I was naive, stupidly too trusting, and thought we already had business plan/well-rounded product) and I had to do all the things alone. Admittedly, I am also an anxious person and haven’t been as assertive as I should have.

    I have a feeling that she covers things up to her boss, and I know she gave wrong insights about the local market to her foreigner boss (they talked in another language that I can understand 80% of the time, but idk if they knew that I understand), as well as covering up that one of our staffs resigned . It took a toll on my mental health (anxiety/panic attack, heart palpitations, random burst of tears, you name it). Now, I am just waiting to give her my resignation face to face when she flies down here in a few months, but I’m just wondering should I spill the beans on what’s actually been happening, to her boss and supervisor? I’ve only talked with them like..2-3 times? Less than 5x. Tips and articles about resigning told me that I should keep it brief, but in my situation she’s my long time friend and I’ve done my all for this company, and the possibility that her boss doesn’t know about it kind of stings. I assumed all the credit goes to her. It’s a battle of wanting to not rock the boat and resign peacefully, vs my pettiness and wanting to spill everything to him so he knows that he’s been underpaying me for everything that I’ve done, and that my friend has been covering things up. Would appreciate any thoughts from fellow readers and Allison, many thanks!

    1. WellRed*

      The friendship is taking a hit either way but it will totally blow up if clue in her boss. Do you want to preserve some shred if friendship? Also, what do you hope to accomplish by talking to her boss? It sounds like you are leaving either way. Finally, why are you waiting so long to resign?

      1. Tired*

        Whew, I hope the friendship will still stay tbh, but if it doesn’t, then, *shrug*. I hope she can be a big girl and accept that she messed up since day one for not explaining the full context, and “tricking” me into agreeing to be underpaid whilst she gets 3-4 times that pay. I want to talk to him to respectfully part from the company, and at least offer hints of truth (disguised as suggestions) that my boss has been covering up so there wouldn’t be another ‘me’. It was mostly my pettiness, but now that I’m a bit clear-headed, it’s equal parts wanting to part with respect.

        I waited so long because I believed that this wasn’t so bad, that it would be better, that maybe this is normal. And then I stayed because I wanted to wait at least a little more than a year here, and now I just want to get my arse moving as soon as possible…

        1. valentine*

          the boss is foreign […] and he wanted her to open a branch in my country, but she and I put only our names in the legal documents of the company establishment
          Is this legal?

          offer hints of truth (disguised as suggestions) that my boss has been covering up so there wouldn’t be another ‘me’.
          You don’t have to disguise anything, though you might wait until you’ve got your last paycheck.

          1. Tired*

            Yes and no. The company is built as a local company and not a foreign capital company (sorry I don’t really know the proper term), so the stakeholders in the legal papers are only the two of us, but the money is from her boss. The office that I’m taking care of only operates to approach clients.

            True, though I don’t know when he’s going to come here. I also don’t know how long I should make my last day notice, a month?

            1. valentine*

              It seems like you need to do more than just give notice. Are you sure you can get out of this? Do you have a plan for if this person doesn’t want to let you out of the legal relationship or uses any illegality against you? Have you ever been in contact with the guy? Look out for yourself, not any future person your ex-friend may manipulate. After consulting a lawyer, unless they say different, give her two weeks.

              1. Tired*

                I’m 90% sure I can, at least I hope so. The only wild card here is the contract in that foreign language that I stupidly, stupidly signed without asking for a copy, and which content I already forget except for the number of my wage. I’ve read the policy in his country regarding this matter, and I should be protected both under local and his country’s labor law. I’ve talked with him some, and I only know that he has other businesses (the office where my boss friend works seems to be a ‘hobby’ to him).

                I asked some friends (some also know her) if I should talk to a lawyer or at least a consultant, but some of them said I don’t have to. I still believe my boss friend doesn’t have actual evil intent, she’s just unwilling to admit her wrongdoing and pretend all’s fine when nobody’s saying anything. But I’ll prepare, just in case. Thank you!

  209. Traceybc93*

    I really need advice. I’m a very direct woman and I seem to rub everyone I work with the wrong way. I’m really just trying to do the right things for the betterment of work.
    My direct manager has been very supportive but I know everyone wonders why.
    I don’t yell or swear and people will complain but say I’m a “lovely person”. My confidence is shot and I don’t know what to do anymore – I feel I’m one more complain away from either being out on a performance plan or let go. Help!

    2. LGC*

      My first question is – what are you suggesting, and how often? It seems like – and correct me if I’m wrong – you make a lot of suggestions for improvements, and people are a little annoyed by either volume or tone (even if you don’t yell or swear).

      WellRed is probably on base (to use one of my favorite Silicon Valley phrases, don’t try to boil the ocean), but I’m not sure whether you’re bringing up critical issues most of the time (like costly errors or safety violations) or you’re just suggesting that the plants be rearranged. Generally, you don’t want to be a bulldog unless absolutely necessary.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      It’s hard to say without more details about your work, job and workplace culture.
      I get this at my current job too, and honestly, it is the culture of the place.

      I always ask nicely when I ask for things and thank people for doing them, but yes, I am blunt when people do not want to do their jobs! Yes I am blunt when people take 3 months to complete a task that should take a few days! Yes, I will be blunt if you do not follow the directions I’ve given you!

      It may be that you are not “blunt” but just not a good fit with the culture of your company. It also depends if you were brought in or hired to enact changes (in which case you need the backing of your managers).

      I take a lot of shit at work from other departments, but not from my managers or direct team. But it’s a difficult road to travel, and there are times I’m made to feel I’m crazy, or in the wrong. But I’ve worked many places besides current company, and I know what reasonable work and timeframes should be for certain projects, and current company isn’t cutting it! Sadly, I’m not highly-placed enough to be a catalyst of change, but I will call bullshit out when it happens to me. Because it should NOT take 3 months to make a simple copy and photo change on a website! I don’t care what excuse you try to give me.

    4. Earthwalker*

      Who’s “everyone?” Are you in one of those bro cultures where a woman who is direct is “bossy” and a woman who is not is considered too timid to amount to anything? Sometimes this feedback means you need to change your approach but sometimes it’s just a culture thing and not about you.

    5. The Other Dawn*

      For me, it would depend upon several factors as to whether it would rub me the wrong way:

      -how often do you make suggestions?
      -are these suggestions made because there are truly concerns, such as the company will lose money/time/resources/violate laws/(insert whatever is substantive here), or are they more like “just a thought”?
      -do you push?
      -is tone a problem? Just because you don’t yell or swear doesn’t mean your tone isn’t a problem.
      -is the only time you talk to me when you want to make a suggestion? Do you ignore my any time it’s not about bettering the work?
      -does the work really need to be improved? Just because you think it does, doesn’t mean everyone else does.

  210. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

    In prepping for my interview I’ve been thinking about situations where there was a conflict on the team and how I handled it. In truth in the situations I can think of the solution was to ignore it because the contract would be over soon, or else go get the supervisor to back me up. These do not seem like strong responses! How would you answer a question like this in these circumstances?

    1. CM*

      It depends on the circumstances. In the first scenario, you might be able to spin it as “I think it’s important to choose your battles” though there could be a follow-up question like, “What’s an example of a battle you DID think was worth fighting?”

      In the second scenario, you’d want to explain what you tried before you asked the supervisor to back you up, unless the situation was so extreme that obviously you had to call someone else right away.

      If there’s a pattern where you think you try to avoid conflict too often, you could say that you realize you err on the side of being too non-confrontational and you’re trying to be more assertive. Usually employers are more on the look-out for people who are too aggressive rather than too passive, so they might be okay with that.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I think it’s mostly that I’ve been lucky enough to have few workplace conflicts. In the most annoying example I was working with someone who wanted to take some really pointless measurements but could not be persuaded that it was not useful information, so I had to get the supervisor to back me up. So it was pretty minor but I did not want to waste half the day on a pointless task.

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          But that works! They just want to hear that you DID handle it, and didn’t rage-quit or engage in a shouting match or sucker-punch the other person.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          I think that’s a good example too. I would add in a bit about the reasoning you used on the coworker to try to explain that the measurements weren’t needed, that it became apparent that they would only be convinced by a supervisor, and that you avoided a wasteful exercise by asking the supervisor to step in to get things back on track.

    2. Zombie Unicorn*

      I don’t think conflict has to mean arguments or disliking people- it can also be something a bit more mundane! Like you had one idea for a project and someone else wanted to use a different idea. That kind of thing can fit too.

  211. 653-CXK*

    I’m a few weeks away from my six month anniversary at NewJob, and for a few weeks after the departure of my former boss, I’ve gone into catch-up mode. I’ve been able to clear a lot of backlog from my work, been doing projects for other teams, and so on.

    There was one week, however, when I almost chucked it in. I actually replaced someone on a team, and somehow, other members of other teams got wind of it (without me being fully trained in things). Somehow, I emanate the “Competent Subject Matter Expert” bat-signal, so everyone piled on their work. One time, I gave out the wrong information, it went back to a client (who went bananacrackers) but thankfully it was resolved. Another time, the Competent Subject Matter Expert bat-signal went up again when a receptionist (not the highest card in the deck) foisted an angry caller on me – and the subject revolved around why they hadn’t gotten a monthly bill.

    In between all that, I was training someone how to do my work in the event I was on vacation. Constant and frequent disruptions, “here, let’s pull them away from what he’s doing to see another client we have no idea how to transmit information to,” a checkrun that was overdue, and I reacted the way I only know how besides singing a four-letter aria complete with full orchestration with five part harmony – I waved my hands in surrender and in a fit of frustration, told these folks (nicely), “I haven’t been trained in X yet. This is what I do NOW. When I’m trained in X, I can help you better.” I think it was a combination of being overwhelmed and my former boss leaving that put me over the edge.

    A while back, while I was unemployed, someone had posted some articles regarding sick systems and how competent people get rewarded (or punished) with more work. Last Sunday, I read those articles and finally realized (and understood) that that was what was happening. Those articles described my ExJob to a T, but even moreso to NewJob – “you’re more competent than I, here’s something gnarly for you to figure out.” It ends up being more silly than gnarly (client already had his bill paid, wants to know additional information, etc.), but still, it can involve a lot more work if it is gnarly and if the client wants an answer Right Now.

    On the other hand, NewJob is still much better than ExJob. I’ve mastered my commute, and it is no longer as stressful as it was in the beginning. I get a lot of respect from people, even if I’m the one in the wrong. And in a twist of fate/karma, my former company is merging with someone else. To be a fly on the wall when they made the announcement…I can bet the first words bleated out by the rank and file were, “when are layoffs coming?” And, I planning to take a vacation once I have enough hours.

    Ah, the long weekend never felt so good :-)

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I’m glad you like the challenges of your new job. And, at first yes, there will be ups and downs. However, if you’re like me, and actually enjoy challenges, you will need to learn how to say no sometimes. Otherwise, it’s a recipe for burnout.

      I do this too, and often get pulled into projects or customer stuff I have no knowledge of, or background in, because I am the “communications person” and I guess people think I can deal with it or figure it out because it may have a small communications component. (!)

      1. 653-CXK*

        Thanks for the kind and encouraging words :-) Of course, I just scanned reading my post and I should have said, “I’m planning a vacation…”

        The math major in me always loved to solve a problem. It may take me awhile and I sometimes have to step back and think, and often ask for help, but once I get a solution, I’m like, “aha! let’s move on to the next problem.” It gets frustrating, however, when I get stuck or someone drops it on me like a fresh bag of mulch.

        The two best parts of my job are when something gets resolved after a long time and when someone gives me a genuine complement. The two worst parts are “gotcha” things like I described and uncertainty, which kicks up my anxiety a few notches.

        You are 100% right about burnout; the good thing about NewJob is that there are no minimum quotas (e.g. I must take X phone calls per day, no errors, etc.) – so I can prioritize my duties for the day.

  212. Listening to radio at a reasonable volume between 9 and 11*

    I’m going slightly mad and really hoping to wake up one morning as a banana tree… The thing is, I scored a job offer. The hiring manager thought I invented sliced bread.

    The thing of the thing is, the company is in finance and doing a rigorous background check, and I am climbing the walls if they find a ”discrepancy” due to some 3rd party illiteracy or idiotism inherent in the system. And the start date is 6 weeks from now and I can’t pay the rent next month so I need to invent money in between… so take a(ny) job if one comes along… which makes my moral compass change polarity even thinking of it.

    The job also is paying 1/2 of my previous role in a different line of work in the same industry, but it is a new start from the lowest rung on the ladder and there’s only one way up. So ”I want it”… badly…and then I am worrying of some irrelevant shit showing up even I know there’s nothing ”bad” anywhere there. Yeah so I am late on my bills as I got no money, as I am unemployed, figure that one out.

    Menawhile I’m cramming for a construction safety certificate test next week and my head is full of fire extinguisher, warning sign, helmet and underground line colors. As I *know* I will be skylarking on a scaffolding than actually having an office job filling in TPS cover sheets in 6 weeks…

    I wonder if I can take a stress medical for the first week if I actually get that job.

  213. Up Too Early*

    Since my PITA employee quit without notice on Monday, I’m having quite the fabulous weekend. I feel light as a feather, as though all is right with the world. Onward and upward from here.

  214. Anonymous Person on the Web*

    I’m trying to remember the phrase “you’re not obligated to light yourself on fire to keep someone else warm” so hard right now….. quieting my job in protest of THING about the organization would only result in me not having a job and being broke and basically screwed…. the THING that is happening right now isn’t even with my branch of the org (it’s a national non-profit with independent State chapters) but there are other overall things that make me wish I’d never taken this job but …. I really needed a job so remembering “you’re not obligated to light yourself on fire to keep someone else warm” is a must until I can actually find something else or something….

    1. Kathenus*

      Good on you to frame it this way. Another perspective for you is the airplane safety talk analogy – you have to put on your own oxygen mask before you can help anyone else. So you can choose to make a difference in another way, working within the org to mitigate the negative if possible, work to find another job if you desire to for the future while keeping yourself economically healthy in the meantime to do all the other good things you do in life, etc. We can all play different roles in change in the world, there’s no one way and if you don’t protect yourself now you can’t do good in the future.

  215. Rosalie*

    First time commenter, long time lurker. I have been managing in academic libraries for years. I have had more than my share of coming into places and finding tons of unaddressed personnel issues because people hated conflict or did not want to deal with it, and I am generally good at it. I don’t mix friendship with work, to make it easier. But I am a bit stumped with one issue. I have a low level staffer who is looking hard for another job, and I sincerely hope she finds one. She had an offer and turned it down because she could not find the money to move; I honestly think the staff might have taken up a collection. She does good work when she focuses on it, but is inconsistent. She has gotten away with it for years because my predecessor hated conflict. I’m not brand new in this place, but still newish. I figured something would come up with her eventually, and it has. I tried to support her earlier as I support others, finding money for her to take professional development and so on. But recently, I learned that she has been openly abusive to other staff, including senior managers and her own direct boss, on public social media, where she is connected to many colleagues, calling them morons and saying she is doing their work – a perception miles from the truth. Also, she is clearly spending a big chunk of work time on social media – and publicly complains she can’t do more. Normally the procedure is a reprimand letter to start, and I have one drafted and plan to sit down with her and her direct boss. BUT – a) she has well documented mental health issues, as well as other disabilities, and b) she is one of three non-Caucasians (our region is 85% white) in a 38 person office. I also have some sympathy as she has had many other hardships, and we have some in common, like poverty and poor upbringings. (She is very vocal. I haven’t said a lot, but I do empathize.) I cannot let her get away with abusing other staff – some of it verges on slander (we have a law school, so I checked), and it is bad for morale. I already had to fire one extraordinarily abusive employee who flat refused to do assigned work, and I know I can’t let it fester. Her boss has not said things, because of past lack of support – the old boss wouldn’t even reprimand the guy I fired, who was the most outrageous staff member I have seen in my life. Any tips for dealing with this when it is extra tough? I am documenting. HR is on board. Anything else? Anything to help me get through it, when she has several severe mental health issues? Any ideas on how to help her either see that her behavior is unacceptable – or help her leave, since I think her unhappiness is making her work worse?

    1. valentine*

      She doesn’t have to see her behavior is unacceptable. She needs to behave properly or get out. The only way race matters is if her behavior is a response to kyricism, but you’re not set up to handle that (overwhelmingly white; willful lack of management) and needn’t float it. I’m not sure how her mental issues factor, but you need to detach. Keeping people in jobs just because they have rough lives doesn’t necessarily serve them. You might do well to leave yourself, because this place is shambolic (overwhelmingly white; willful lack of management).

  216. Perkins47*

    I’m currently in between jobs. I had two interviews at the end of July that seemed to go really well. I inquired about their hiring timeline, and was told they needed to fill the position quickly and hoped to make a decision within the first week of August. It’s now the end of August and I’ve heard nothing. I’d give up all hope except that I’ve emailed twice – once when the first deadline passed, and then again 2 weeks after that. Each time, the reply has been positive and has made me believe that I’m still in the running.

    I guess this is more just commiserating, but am I being taken for a ride by these people? Each time I’ve emailed (10-14 days apart, trying to sound as chill as possible, I’ve inquired about a timeline. Should I just give up? Or is this predictable hiring nonsense where it always takes longer than the employer is counting on?

    Thanks!

    1. Alianora*

      Predictable hiring nonsense, probably. It’s really common for hiring timelines to stretch out longer than hoped for. I wouldn’t follow up more than you already have, though.

      1. Perkins47*

        You’re probably right. I’ve only followed up the couple of times because of the first mistaken timeline and then once more two weeks after that. Each time I get a very encouraging response that seems like they truly like me, but that it is “The Process” that has taken longer than expected but then give me no new estimate as to their timeline.

        It’s just incredibly frustrating sitting and waiting for an indeterminable amount of time with no estimates. I need to work on my patience, absolutely.

        1. Alianora*

          I totally get the frustration. If you can, I think it’s worth putting that energy into other applications. No point in getting hung up on one specific job.

  217. Yazeep*

    Hi,

    So, I have a problem that is both work and non work related. My son will be 4 years old in October. He has mild high functioning autism. We live in the Middle East, where there isn’t much help for children like him. We work with a London based specialist, who comes every three months to see him and other cases. She recommended a London based recruitment agency to find a full time interventionist to support him at school and after school. The cost of this is insane. We would have to pay the agency a commission, then pay a ticket for the chosen candidate to come to the country, find them accommodation, pay their utilities, and pay them a salary so high it makes me sick just thinking of.
    However, because of the lack of options here, we decided to go ahead with this crazy plan and hire someone for a year or so. So, the agency started looking for candidates and it has been he’ll. The first candidate made us wait for a month because she was traveling. Then, she withdrew her application five minutes after the Skype interview. The second was also a foreigner but was already in town working with another family. We met her twice. She negotiated for a better package and sent us a contract to sign. I then spent two weeks looking for an appropriate accommodation for her. When I finally called her to tell her that I found a nice place, she was like Oops, didn’t anyone tell you? I’ve decided to stay on with the family I’m currently with! This almost gave me a heart attack because it was ten days before school was set to start. Then the agency got me a third candidate. This one was basically not interested in the job at all and told me she had already explained this to the recruiter. But she said she would be happy to work with my son a couple of times a week after school. That’s not what we are looking for. We are looking for someone to support him at school. September is here and school is starting and I’m in a total panic mode. I want to know whose fault is this? Is this a case of bad luck or is it the agency’s s fault for continuing to provide unreliable candidates? Should I continue working with them or give up?.
    Ps My son’s autism is very mild and other specialists don’t think he is on the spectrum at all. However, he does have a problem. But I am saying this to assure you that his case is not severe or anything and that is not why candidates are changing their minds.

    1. bigX*

      I think only one of the candidates was actually “flaky” and two probably told the agency about the circumstances but the agency didn’t relay it to you – the woman who flat-out didn’t want the job (how did you even get her number in his case? Did the agency actually pass on the number of someone who rejected the job?) and the one that wanted to stay with her current assignment.

      The type of support you want for your son is pretty extensive – it’s all day school support and sounds like after-school support. This doesn’t factor in the time for lesson-planning and any other prep. Is there something about what you want from candidates you feel might be putting them off, i.e. are you advertising this as a school support role but it has shades of a nanny job that some candidates would be worried about?

      1. Observer*

        The ones where the agency didn’t pass on the information are far worse than the “flaky” one – and that one might not have been flaky. It’s hard to know why she withdrew her candidacy, but it could be there were good reasons for that -which may or may not point to the agency as well.

        1. bigX*

          How are they worse? The agency is the mediator – they should be in contact with Yazeep and the candidates about these things as that’s what Yazeep is essentially paying for. From what we are being told, this is the same agency that is giving OP numbers for people who don’t want the job…so I am thinking those two candidates did their due diligence and went through the agency to say “no thanks” and the agency didn’t do their part in relaying that to OP.

          The agency is the issue here. OP has maybe had a string of bad luck but the agency isn’t helping ease it at all.

      2. Yazeep*

        Yes, the agency gave me the candidate’s number. It was a bizarre situation. We both seemed confused.
        By the way, the specialist’s assistant is the owner of the recruitment agency. Also bizarre right? I feel like I’m being scammed. I feel that they know there is a lack of support in this country and that parents like me are desperate, so they offer foreign placements with a very expensive commission :(

        1. bigX*

          I don’t think it’s a scam as they are connecting you with qualified candidates but because it’s such a niche industry, they can afford to be…lax? It’s very weird if they knew and gave you the number still – maybe the candidate said “I don’t wanna do it full-time but I am willing to do it after school” and they thought she would reconsider or you would concede to only after school?

          The specialist’s assistant owning the place is…yeah, doesn’t sit well with me. The specialist is the one that says your son needs this service then refers you to an agency that they may have a business stake or at least a close relationship with? It may be above board but again, I would go to another specialist to have your son assessed and see if they think your son needs this level of support. If it’s mild and he’s high-functioning, to the point where some specialists say he doesn’t even have autism, I am really unsure he needs this level of support. If there are specific issues, then I would bring those up to another specialist and maybe see if those are actually separate issues (Behavioral issues in kids are complex AFAIK, and personally, I struggled with language/reading because I grew up with non-English speaking parents in the USA and wasn’t oriented 100% in English when I entered kindergarten; I ended up being provided with an English as a Second Language Teacher for three years for 1-1 tutoring – is this a similar case of you guys speaking one language at home and him being expected to learn/communicate in another?)

    2. Observer*

      You have two problems here. The recruitment agency is one problem – in two if the three cases it sounds like the agency definitely messed up unless the candidates were lying to you. So, if you decide to move forward, you need to find a different agency.

      The second problem is that it sounds like there may be a mis-match between your son’s diagnosis and the interventions described. Your son needs help, but does he really need a full time interventionist? That’s pretty extreme for a kid who is as high functioning as you seem to be describing. So, it might be worth your while to have someone give a second look at everything you know and all of your son’s records and provide a second opinion.

      1. Yazeep*

        Hi, I never saw the job ad. The specialist contacted the agency, told them what they want for my son. Then together they tailored the ad. Then the candidates were interviewed by the specialist. The ones who were approved by her, were then passed on to me. It was more of a “let’s get to know each other” chat by then. Their skill set was already assessed by the specialist.
        It’s supposed to be a six hour day. A few hours at school, then a few hours at home. Their job was to focus on his language and behaviour issues. We already have a full time nanny for him, so we are not looking for any help in that area. And I believe this was made clear to them.

  218. babblemouth*

    My manager exudes toxic negativity. She’s constantly saying things like: “Everyone is the other teams are stupid; the company would be better off if we fired 90% of that other department; the processes are all dumb and unnecessary, except for the ones she personally put in place; our suppliers are inefficient; HR is useless; we can’t hire anyone decent because we’re based in the wrong part of the country.”

    I and other members of the team have tried to raise this with her directly, and through HR feedback. She’s refused to admit there’s a problem, and said we’re just as negative because we bring problems to her. Because she’s done some good things aside from that like ensuring several of us got promotions, she’s refusing to hear that this is something that’s getting to everyone in the team.

    Anyway, I’m looking for another job because this is stiffling and sucking up my energy. But in the meantime, does anyone have a coping technique?

  219. Purrsnikitty*

    This is for MBarr who posted two weeks ago (August 16th open thread) about being overwhelmed by a Product Owner / Business Analyst job.

    I’d first try to find out whether you’re a Product Owner or a Business Analyst. According to my readings, it’s not the same role. The Product Owner is usually a business person who has or reports the needs of the business side. The Business Analyst is more of an intermediary between said Product Owner and the techies who will build the solution.

    Here are some things the BA is meant to do: define business requirements, plan the requirements approach, identify project stakeholders and user types, elicity + analyze + document + communicate requirements (and then some). The BA will need analytical and communication skills to turn the Product Owner needs into actionable items that the tech team can turn into a functioning application/solution.

    If you recognize yourself in this, I strongly recommend checking Software Requirements 3rd Edition by Karl Wiegers and Joy Beatty. It explains what the BA role is and the other roles she works with, but mostly gives guidance in how to gather requirements and deal with their whole cycle. Depending on the needs of your company, it might sometimes be too detailed, but I believe it touches on all the key elements of requirements.

    Either way, I hope you’re finding your place!

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